Does 11:30pm Sun mass count for obligation?

[Digitonomy]

[First paragraph: unrelated anecdote] A few days ago a relative described how it was at one time common practice for younger folks out and about late on Saturday to drive to the airport to attend one of the hourly masses there. That way, the obligation was fulfilled, and one could sleep in the next morning. It wasn’t clear whether this was after vigil masses were acceptable, in which case it could have been 10 or 11pm mass, or before that change was made, in which case it would probably be midnight or 1am mass.

Anyway, this got me thinking about what rules apply if a mass straddles the beginning or end of a day. Must the entire mass be within Sunday, or does it simply need to begin on Sunday? Or must the consecration or some other significant part of the mass take place before Sunday ends?

 

[AlexV]

I strongly advise avoiding scrupulosity and attempts to figure out the most improbable of scenarios.

Clearly the liturgy envisages that Masses will be celebrated within the limits of the natural day.

Clearly a place that scheduled a Mass at 11:30 pm would make someone scratch their head and wonder why they felt the need for such an hour.

No, there are no specific little rules about this situation, because the Church doesn’t try to invent rubrics for every possible inanity.

A Mass that started at 11 at night will probably be over before 12.

And if it happened to end at 12:02, no, the people attending it aren’t going to be sent to hell for it.

Sheesh. No more scrupulosity!

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

[First paragraph: unrelated anecdote] A few days ago a relative described how it was at one time common practice for younger folks out and about late on Saturday to drive to the airport to attend one of the hourly masses there. That way, the obligation was fulfilled, and one could sleep in the next morning. It wasn’t clear whether this was after vigil masses were acceptable, in which case it could have been 10 or 11pm mass, or before that change was made, in which case it would probably be midnight or 1am mass.

Anyway, this got me thinking about what rules apply if a mass straddles the beginning or end of a day. Must the entire mass be within Sunday, or does it simply need to begin on Sunday? Or must the consecration or some other significant part of the mass take place before Sunday ends?

A Liturgical day runs from midnight to nidnight. So a Mass that would start at 11:30 pm Saturday or midnight Sunday morning and end after midnight would be acceptable. However at the other end a Mass that started at 11:30 pm Sunday, would need to be completed before 11:59:59pm Sunday. It is the priest who is responsible if it ends at 12:05, not the people attending.

 

[AlexV]

Again, we need to move away from a culture that obsesses over obligations and such details as “I must finish by 11:59:59 in the obsessive world that invented this inane situation.”

Would any place really start a Mass at 11:30 pm? Let’s be realistic here. Airport chapels? Are they offering Mass every hour or half hour of the entire day? I doubt it. I seriously doubt it, as someone who has flown extensively worldwide.

Enough with scrupulosity! Surely there are better things to worry about than invented scenarios that both strain credulity and, for a very good reason, aren’t envisaged in the rubrics.

 

[Kielbasi]

Enough with scrupulosity! Surely there are better things to worry about than invented scenarios that both strain credulity and, for a very good reason, aren’t envisaged in the rubrics.

I take it from your response that you’re not anxious to tackle the related issue of what happens if the Mass is being said on a ship while it crosses the International Date Line.:whacky:

 

[Digitonomy]

I strongly advise avoiding scrupulosity and attempts to figure out the most improbable of scenarios.

I will accept your initial advice, but I’m afraid I must reject the advice in the second half of the sentence.

AlexV:

Airport chapels? Are they offering Mass every hour …of the entire day?

So I was told. I highly doubt this is the case anymore.

AlexV:

Surely there are better things to worry about than invented scenarios that both strain credulity and, for a very good reason, aren’t envisaged in the rubrics.

If you have better things to worry about, why are you wasting your time posting in this thread?

 

[AlexV]

Because it’s an act of charity to try to deter souls from scrupulosity, And this issue is a poster child for scrupulosity.

 

[LilyM]

Because it’s an act of charity to try to deter souls from scrupulosity, And this issue is a poster child for scrupulosity.

Not necessarily scrupulosity, certainly idle speculation, which can be dangerous in itself.

I think God and you both have more important things to think about.

 

[Digitonomy]

Br Rich, thanks for the reply.

So a Mass that would start at 11:30 pm Saturday or midnight Sunday morning and end after midnight would be acceptable.

Either I disagree, or I don’t understand you - I’m not sure which.
If we are talking about the old situation when vigil masses did not apply to one’s obligation, which I mentioned in my first paragraph, then I don’t think a mass starting prior to Sunday would be acceptable - much as a 3:30pm mass in this day and age is generally not considered acceptable even though it ends after the widely accepted 4pm cutoff for Saturday evening.

If we are talking about the current situation, where vigil masses do count, then obviously any mass starting Saturday evening or night would count. However, it doesn’t follow from your statement that a liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight. And, although a day under canon law runs from midnight to midnight, I thought a liturgical day began the evening before. Then again, I’m no expert in what precisely is meant by the phrase liturgical day.

It is the priest who is responsible if it ends at 12:05, not the people attending.

Very good point.

 

[AlexV]

Liturgical days sometimes start the night before, and sometimes not. The usual day is 12-12, except some days that start the night before.

NONE of this becomes an issue if you just have morning Masses, These conundra only exist when you start worrying about evening/night Masses.

People need to be liturgically aware. Instead of wasting energy worrying pedantically about what counts for what, think liturgically.

The liturgically aware Catholic will learn, for example, that if it’s Sunday, June 23, then in the evening it’s First Vespers of John the Baptist and the Vigil Mass of John the Baptist.

Instead of worrying about what counts for what, obsessing over obligations, they will celebrate the Sunday either on Saturday night or Sunday morning, and John on Sunday night and Monday.

But this 11:30 pm issue remains scrupulosity par excellence.

 

[Digitonomy]

But this 11:30 pm issue remains scrupulosity par excellence.

From the old Catholic Encyclopedia,

(Lat. Scrupulus, “a small sharp, or pointed, stone”, hence, in a transferred sense, “uneasiness of mind”)

An unfounded apprehension and consequently unwarranted fear that something is a sin which, as a matter of fact, is not.

It’s hard to have an unfounded apprehension or uneasiness of mind about this issue when I haven’t ever heard of an 11:30pm mass being offered. Therefore, it would be quite difficult for me or anyone reading this to fall into scrupulosity about the wisdom or sinfulness of attending a mass we’re never likely to see.

On the other hand, often such questions help distill and clarify Church teaching on some issue. I thank the Lord that Thomas Aquinas was not deterred from asking probing questions about far-fetched details.

 

[AlexV]

If you’ve never heard of an 11:30 pm Mass, then don’t post threads asking if such a fantasy would count for the obligation.

What’s next? If unicorns can be blessed on St. Francis Day?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Br Rich, thanks for the reply.Either I disagree, or I don’t understand you - I’m not sure which.
If we are talking about the old situation when vigil masses did not apply to one’s obligation, which I mentioned in my first paragraph, then I don’t think a mass starting prior to Sunday would be acceptable - much as a 3:30pm mass in this day and age is generally not considered acceptable even though it ends after the widely accepted 4pm cutoff for Saturday evening.

If we are talking about the current situation, where vigil masses do count, then obviously any mass starting Saturday evening or night would count. However, it doesn’t follow from your statement that a liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight. And, although a day under canon law runs from midnight to midnight, I thought a liturgical day began the evening before. Then again, I’m no expert in what precisely is meant by the phrase liturgical day.Very good point.

I guess what is difficult is the term is used with two different meanings. According to the USCCB document the “Liturgical day” of the Holy Day in this case Sunday runs from midnight to midnight. Liturgical law allows Holydays (including Sunday) to have vigils which begin with Evening Prayer of the prior day, as long as the readings used are proper for the Holy Day. Some people use the term “Liturgical day” to mean from sundown to sundown. The USCCB document simply says that the observance of Sundays and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.

 

[decn2b]

I take it from your response that you’re not anxious to tackle the related issue of what happens if the Mass is being said on a ship while it crosses the International Date Line.:whacky:

That is an easy one. Make sure your start the mass on the bow of the ship then run towards the stern to stay ahead of the date line if you cannot run fast enough simply aske the captain to turn her around and sail back across the date line to save some souls:thumbsup:

 

[Twentie_Fow]

The big question is are the readings for that Sunday?