Does a priest openly living against church teaching affect Mass validity?

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ProVobis said:
The state of a priest’s soul, if that’s what you’re discussing, has no bearing on validity. De Defectibus is clear on this. (I believe it’s even printed in the 62 Missal.)
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The state of his soul has no bearing but the state of his beliefs may.
 
ProVobis said:
The state of a priest’s soul, if that’s what you’re discussing, has no bearing on validity. De Defunctibus is clear on this. (I believe it’s even printed in the 62 Missal.)
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I am not a Donatist. I have been very clear about that. My point is very simple: the public nature of this priest’s sin and his persistence in said sin do not in themselves negate the validity of a Mass he offers. However, one could reasonably question whether such a priest holds sound theology/intentionality regarding other aspects of the Faith, including the Mass. The personal holiness of the priest has no bearing on validity; I never called that into question. The attitude towards the Faith that this priest manifests through his public persistence in such a sin disconcerts me and makes me believe it to be reasonable to question if he has the proper intentions during Mass. That’s all. Others are attempting to misconstrue my assessment by making it seem as if I am asserting with certainty that his Masses are invalid, or that I am somehow slandering this priest. I’m not. I’m just providing my take on the matter based on the limited details provided by the OP.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
The state of his soul has no bearing but the state of his beliefs may.
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True, but again how do we know what he believes? I may have very well have attended Masses where the priest may not think about the consecration but I don’t feel the need to confess it unless he makes it known to everyone he doesn’t believe in the Real Presence.
All my opinion, of course.
 
ProVobis said:
True, but again how do we know what he believes? I may have very well have attended Masses where the priest may not think about the consecration but I don’t feel the need to confess it unless he makes it known to everyone he doesn’t believe in the Real Presence.
All my opinion, of course.
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We can’t know what he believes. But we are free to make reasonable assumptions and chose to attend a different parish if our conscience so dictates.
 
I’m a bit confused here. The overriding question seems to be if the priest is sinning in a particular way, can he still function as a priest, making the Eucharist valid? Or if you flip it, what would it take to make a priest’s celebration of the Eucharist invalid?

I’m hearing speculation on belief and moral conduct.

Why this particular moral conduct tho? Why focus on sexual conduct? Priests have had sexual partners, both male and female, for centuries. There are hundreds of children from those partners, which I understand dioceses are spending a whole lot of money these days raising. I don’t think that has much to do with a mass being valid.

And belief… well, I know of a clergy person (Christian) who fell in love with a clergy of a different faith tradition and got married. She quietly converted before she resigned her pulpit. There was some concern about her ministry being invalid after her conversion, and rightly so.

Has this priest changed his beliefs to another faith tradition? Is he now a Hindu? Has he renounced Christ in order to join a Buddhist monastery? No? Well, then, I believe he is still a Catholic priest who is able to perform valid Sacramental rites.

If you are upset about his being out as a gay man, well, that’s not unusual either. He has many fellow priests who are actively involved in gay movements.

Perhaps you could explain what really concerns you - his sexuality? His relationship with your organist? And if so, do you really want to know what goes on in their bedroom? Really?

If it is truly the validity of the sacraments he performs, then I wouldn’t worry. It’s not your concern. And if by any chance the Bishop says there was a question about the validity, he would probably have a blanket fix for all of the parishioners. It’s his job, not yours, to offer one.
 
R_H_Benson said:
You would have no qualms with attending Mass at a parish bedecked with rainbow streamers, knowing that the organist, who begins to play the “Sanctus”, is in a homosexual relationship with the man who is just about to make Present the Body and Blood of Our Lord?
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I did not speak to my opinion or feelings. I only spoke to validity of the Mass. Do I think there is a correlation between sexual sin (or any sin) and believe in the Real Presence? No. I have never seen or heard any evidence to that effect. In fact, since such a person would be more welcome and have an easier time in another denomination, I would think that on something like a belief in the Real Presence would prevent such a one from switching and making his life easier. So this is one **reason **to believe other wise.

If you have reasons to believe the priest does no longer means to consecrate the Holy Eucharist, I do not know what that would be. But if you do have some reason for this, then I understand why it would cause you pause.

As to me going elsewhere for Mass, I would view it as I would a priest who had embezzled, or had a girlfriend, and follow the example of St. Francis. I would not break my obligation to attend Mass or deny myself the Sacrament. I try not to view homosexual sin as in some category as a super-duper worst of all time sin. I think that is done too much by those who do not appreciate that temptation.
And as a side note, the EPII comment was a joke. I know it is valid. But it is overused.
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Not bad. You gotta love Catholic humor. I got it and had a chuckle.
 
R_H_Benson said:
I know I chose the wrong terminology and I clarified that several posts back. However, chastity is a necessary aspect of celibacy.
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No, it isn’t. For Christians, chastity is part of any state of life – married, single, celibate.
So if one violates chastity, one also violates celibacy.
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That’s as ludicrous as saying “if one is gay, one likewise disbelieves in the Eucharist.” Oh… wait… :rolleyes:
Regardless, there is no need for a winky face.
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Sure there is – there’s always room for a wink… 😉
 
Gorgias said:
That’s as ludicrous as saying “if one is gay, one likewise disbelieves in the Eucharist.” Oh… wait… :rolleyes:
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If what the OP suggests is true, then this priest has violated his vow of celibacy which requires, among other things, that he remain chaste. I sincerely can’t understand how I am wrong in saying that? If you can explain it to me in a way that is not condescending I would be happy to listen.

Chasity is required in every state of Christian life, as you point out. That in no way nullifies my statement that “chastity is a necessary aspect of celibacy”. In fact, it reinforces my statement. How can this priest be said to be living a celibate lifestyle while he is living in the rectory with a homosexual partner? Are you positive that sins against chastity don’t violate the vow of celibacy (and in particular, this priest’s sin against chastity)? Does a priest who keeps a mistress violate his vow of celibacy if he keeps a mistress?
 
Gorgias said:
That’s as ludicrous as saying “if one is gay, one likewise disbelieves in the Eucharist.” Oh… wait… :rolleyes:
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If what the OP suggests is true, then this priest has violated his vow of celibacy which requires, among other things, that he remain chaste. I sincerely can’t understand how I am wrong in saying that? If you can explain it to me in a way that is not condescending I would be happy to listen.

Chasity is required in every state of Christian life, as you point out. That in no way nullifies my statement that “chastity is a necessary aspect of celibacy”. In fact, it reinforces my statement. How can this priest be said to be living a celibate lifestyle while he is living in the rectory with a homosexual partner? Are you positive that sins against chastity don’t violate the vow of celibacy (and in particular, this priest’s sin against chastity)? Does a priest who keeps a mistress violate his vow of celibacy if he keeps a mistress?
 
Gorgias said:
That’s as ludicrous as saying “if one is gay, one likewise disbelieves in the Eucharist.” Oh…
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Your use of straw men is impressive. Not once have I made that claim. What I have claimed is that his public persistence in a lifestyle so opposed to fundamental Church teaching to the point that he even speaks about it openly at Mass could reasonably call into question his theology and intentions regarding other aspects of Catholic life including the Mass.
 
victrolatim said:
Here’s the short of the situation. There is an area parish where the pastor is openly homosexual and living in the rectory with the organist (he has made reference to it himself in sermons). The church is decorated in rainbow streamers and there are some very unorthodox things promoted there. I’ve been there myself once and never returned. I am concerned because I have family members in the territory of the parish who are unable to travel elsewhere. Are the Mass and sacraments still valid if the priest is defying church teaching by his lifestyle choice?Also, the Bishop has been informed on this particular situation by multiple people including a fellow priest.
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This is almost unbelievable that a situation such as this is actually occurring. You say that this is well known throughout the parish and that the Bishop has even been informed and nothing has changed? If all this is true than that parish is a sinful parish from the people who remain in the pews right through the priest and up to the Bishop. I would never attend Mass in a church where Satan holds sway.
 
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