Does a University education create sinners?

[wjp984]

I’m not saying that knowledge is but remember, the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree of Knowledge. They in effect were attempting to be more like God in obtaining knowledge that only God was supposed to know.

I do not think this is saying to remain ignorant. What I think it means is that the issue is it can sometimes be harder to remain faithful to God and obey his will when one obtains greater knowledge. In a sense, we kind of are closer to God the more we learn and if that reality is used in a bad way, it can lead to the perception that we know everything and therefore do not need God anymore. It doesn’t help that many of the professors in higher education are atheist or teach non Catholic values.

Therefore, what this really is saying is that we must also remember to equally develop our knowledge of the faith and our spirituality along with our knowledge of the other subjects. This is what a lot of studetns lack. God of course wants us to learn but with the attitude that it is for God’s use and that we still are God’s humble servents as we eventually hope to have a much better understanding of God’s knoweldge revealed to us if we make it to Heaven.

 

[buffalo]

Actually in some ways the poster is correct I believe. Unfortunately we don’t teach critical thinking at the high school level. We barely teach it at the college level, but we do teach it. And it’s a critically important ability to be developed.

Thinking is not the same as thinking well, and that takes training. It does not appear to come naturally, otherwise you wouldn’t see the break that seems to occur to those raised in rather closed environments when they are exposed to a broader and more eclectic environment. People literally blossom as they almost go into sensory overload. That is not the case with those who are exposed to a broad spectrum of ideas of people before college. But most of us were brought up in one environment for our entire young years. College is our first move away from home and new ideas and new people.

The same could be done earlier I believe with the same result. There is no santification in colleges, high schools if properly run could do the same. Most of us have had at least the experience of one teacher in our high school years who really tried to open new vistas for us. It’s the constraints of the way children are educated that hampers this. Many if not most of our major thinkers in the world historically and otherswise consider that the ability to think critically is the greatest of all assets, much more than any mere run down of things learned.

Could anything of this have anything to do with the age of thinking being coincidental with the college age?

 

[hasikelee]

It would seem that a disproportionate percentage of those undertaking higher education have standpoints which differ from the traditional interpretation of the church. Universities always seem to be “hotbeds of political activism” - to cite and overused phrase. Gay groups are more vocal, support for pro-choice is the rule not the exception, even Christian groups advocate things which would never fly in a Catholic church. I won’t even mention the parties.

Now before people chime in with anecdotal evidence, and mention the Pope’s undeniable academic credentials – I am speaking en generalities here.

Is it just youthful exuberance? A general period where young people rebel? Or does higher education attract those prone to sin and depravity. Are they exposed to ideas, and thoughts from left wing academics which merely pollute a young mind, or are they merely thinking for themselves for the first time after years of formal schooling?

I think it’s just a period of life.

Then they get married/get a job/have babies and figure it out.

 

[omegabane]

I’m not saying that knowledge is but remember, the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree of Knowledge. They in effect were attempting to be more like God in obtaining knowledge that only God was supposed to know.

I do not think this is saying to remain ignorant. What I think it means is that the issue is it can sometimes be harder to remain faithful to God and obey his will when one obtains greater knowledge. In a sense, we kind of are closer to God the more we learn and if that reality is used in a bad way, it can lead to the perception that we know everything and therefore do not need God anymore. It doesn’t help that many of the professors in higher education are atheist or teach non Catholic values.

Therefore, what this really is saying is that we must also remember to equally develop our knowledge of the faith and our spirituality along with our knowledge of the other subjects. This is what a lot of studetns lack. God of course wants us to learn but with the attitude that it is for God’s use and that we still are God’s humble servents as we eventually hope to have a much better understanding of God’s knoweldge revealed to us if we make it to Heaven.

To be precise, it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not just the tree of knowledge. This is an important difference, I think, because having the knowledge of good and evil means that we are able to make choices for reasons other than because they are ordered to the will of God.

 

[Wollie]

All this is why its a parents duty to give children a solid foundation before they head off into a world of ideas very different than their own. Its good to question your beliefs. How else can we choose the Truth but to recognize and reject the lies.

 

[omegabane]

All this is why its a parents duty to give children a solid foundation before they head off into a world of ideas very different than their own. Its good to question your beliefs. How else can we choose the Truth but to recognize and reject the lies.

YES! And sadly, at least in San Francisco at my Parish, the religious education that parents are giving their children has turned quite poor. It is remarkable how little the children know about their faith, even as late as Confirmation! It’s a topic for another thread, probably in another forum, but we really should start thinking about what we can do to help parents be better parents.

 

[thomfra]

Oh some levity is necessary otherwise a person would cry. I can’t even begin to wrap my brain around the concept that education at higher institutions of learning is somehow the cause of the world being in a bad way.

It’s really the age old American theme of being anti-intellectual. It’s had a long history in this country. It’s the current gambit of some politicians to call others elitist, it was done against Adlai Stevenson in the 50’s.

It’s the blame game. Its always directed at liberals. LOL. Liberals who are all secret atheists I suspect. I thought a reponse in levity was better than actually answering it.

Oh SpiritMeadow. Such a dejected answer I am the OP, and I wrote the post merely to get an idea of people’s views on the matter. I thought it was quite a balanced, and the responses (in the most part) have been suprisingly balanced.

Personally, the thought that exposing oneself to “ideas” can be dangerous to one’s faith is quite interesting.

i.e. Which is worse: To be a Christian/Catholic and have this faith because “that’s the way it is”, and you have never had the opportunity to think/discuss alternatives, **or **to have exposed yourself to these new ideas (at University for example), and subsequently deviated from the faith which others would propose is the only way through the pearly gates.

 

[Salonika]

Personally, the thought that exposing oneself to “ideas” can be dangerous to one’s faith is quite interesting.

i.e. Which is worse: To be a Christian/Catholic and have this faith because “that’s the way it is”, and you have never had the opportunity to think/discuss alternatives, **or **to have exposed yourself to these new ideas (at University for example), and subsequently deviated from the faith which others would propose is the only way through the pearly gates.

Given modern communications can people really be kept away from ideas that challenge their faith? Probably only if they withdraw from the world and don’t talk with anyone outside their circle. Therefore, surely it is better that people have the tools to deal with alternative ideas and university education offers them the chance to develop further skills they should have already been introduced at home, school, and I would hope, at church.

Hasikelee – Some of us keep thinking and re-figuring things out so it’s not just a period of our life. It’s part of our life’s work.

 

[wjp984]

To be precise, it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not just the tree of knowledge. This is an important difference, I think, because having the knowledge of good and evil means that we are able to make choices for reasons other than because they are ordered to the will of God.

Good to clarify that but I still think it can be harder to be faithful the more knowlegable one gets. For example after taking my general education class on the cosmos taught by a person who practices Zen Buddhaism, I had to really think about how God can still fit into the picture with all this evolutionalry cosmoogy and therories and attempts at explaning how the universe is random chance and not started by God. I think that knowledge about the universe is a wonderful thing but for some people, that class can make them question their faith and perhaps even leave it.

I remember hearing about a couple people that took a world religions class that left the Catholic Church after taking the course. I was told this when I enrolled in the class but I knew it wasn’t going to effect me.

 

[Catholic_89]

Hello,
I myself am currently a University Student studying mathematics, and have been quite challenged on my faith. I am a devout Catholic, and although I have managed to find some students on the same boat, most are not. Oh, I live in Ontario by the way.

There are three main problems with the University environment that create sinful attitudes.

1. Liberalism - Everywhere you go there is always something sinful being done. You look at the posters and you see some gay rights poster, or pro-choice ad. If you go to class, you hear about how the Catholic Church did this bad thing or that (clearly taken out of context), but how wonderful our governmental system is or our University system is. Atheist perspectives are hammered into students. Infact 14% of Mathematicians and even less of biologists believe in God. How sad. For example, I remember a Professor of Physics saying that this lecture was his favourite part because he got to “play God” so to speak.
2. Pride: Students who learn begin to become arrogant and prideful of how smart they have become. They become self -centred and believe that they are smarter than everyone else. Trust me, I’m in math, and the amount of arrogant people I have to deal with is overwhelming. Everything becomes a competition. However, for all their knowledge, they sure are foolish when it comes to one thing, asking questions and challenging the professors.
3. Challenge: Students don’t challenge professors! They believe them to be infallible beings who are never wrong. I am not even talking about just math. In sociology, bogus theories about human behaviour come about, and everyone is just amazed, meanwhile they make no sense. For example, studies show that children without one father or mother are more likely to have problems than those who do. Yet when it comes to a gay couple adopting children, when the Pope said that it was disorderly, they said that he had not right to say such things because there was no such evidence. Students are lead to believe religion has no affect on happiness, and that other liberal life styles are normal. And not one person asks why? Students fall for anything. Everyone says that evolution is so good and a “scientific fact”, and yet not 50 years ago, professors where teaching that race affected the brain size, which was not only wrong (disproven today) but also racist.

I have even had other Christian groups come to me and try to convert me! Anyways, the second they do, I give them a piece of theology and they quickly move on to someone more vulnerable to give pamphlets to.

In closing students have poor foundations in their faith, and if they have any, they are too scared to speak up, because right now, Catholics are the minority, and to be one is to go against the flow of the “intellectuals”. God bless.

 

[omegabane]

Good to clarify that but I still think it can be harder to be faithful the more knowlegable one gets. For example after taking my general education class on the cosmos taught by a person who practices Zen Buddhaism, I had to really think about how God can still fit into the picture with all this evolutionalry cosmoogy and therories and attempts at explaning how the universe is random chance and not started by God. I think that knowledge about the universe is a wonderful thing but for some people, that class can make them question their faith and perhaps even leave it.

I remember hearing about a couple people that took a world religions class that left the Catholic Church after taking the course. I was told this when I enrolled in the class but I knew it wasn’t going to effect me.

This is the problem with learning one thing and forgetting that you’ve only scratched the surface. Many things in the sciences, at first glance, may seem to contradict faith. If people leave it at that, this is where many are lost. They feel like they have had a sudden realization of “scientific truth” and they fail to dig more deeply, where the finger of God is pretty apparent.

There is no shortage of people, sadly, who leave the Church after taking up a closer study of theology. The same thing happens - all of a sudden they learn something about Church history or the Sacred Scriptures that the didn’t previously know. It strikes them as discordant with everything they’ve ever previously known, when in fact it is simply the start of a deeper journey, but a journey they give up far too soon.

 

[Wollie]

I agree with the previous post. Studying science, especially the origins of the universe, have pointed me in the direction of G-d, not away from Him! Some scientists now believe that in the beginning, before time, all matter and all forces were present in one thing from which all things exploded (the Big Bang). umm… could that thing be G-d? Many truly educated people have found G-d through deep contemplation of science, history, and anthropology. Look at Chesterton, Lewis and Kreeft!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Could anything of this have anything to do with the age of thinking being coincidental with the college age?

I’m sorry but I’m not aware of what you mean by “age of thinking.” Could you explain?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Oh SpiritMeadow. Such a dejected answer I am the OP, and I wrote the post merely to get an idea of people’s views on the matter. I thought it was quite a balanced, and the responses (in the most part) have been suprisingly balanced.

Personally, the thought that exposing oneself to “ideas” can be dangerous to one’s faith is quite interesting.

i.e. Which is worse: To be a Christian/Catholic and have this faith because “that’s the way it is”, and you have never had the opportunity to think/discuss alternatives, **or **to have exposed yourself to these new ideas (at University for example), and subsequently deviated from the faith which others would propose is the only way through the pearly gates.

The answers have definitely been quite interesting. I tend to agree with president Madison that those ideas that are true tend to withstand the battleground of the arena of ideas. This was really his position about religious liberty, and why he was so opposed to the government being attached to religion in any way. That of course is another issue, but I suspect he might agree here as well. Surely most of our greatest thinkers would.

Faith is not worth anything if it cannot withstand the community of ideas in my book. Truth has that ability, it withstands all attempts to denigrate it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Good to clarify that but I still think it can be harder to be faithful the more knowlegable one gets. For example after taking my general education class on the cosmos taught by a person who practices Zen Buddhaism, I had to really think about how God can still fit into the picture with all this evolutionalry cosmoogy and therories and attempts at explaning how the universe is random chance and not started by God. I think that knowledge about the universe is a wonderful thing but for some people, that class can make them question their faith and perhaps even leave it.

I remember hearing about a couple people that took a world religions class that left the Catholic Church after taking the course. I was told this when I enrolled in the class but I knew it wasn’t going to effect me.

See I see this as but examples of people whose faith was not worth much in the first place. If something very significantly calls you to quesiton your faith, then i would presume your faith being important to you, would be worth the necessary full investigation required to substantiate or disprove the interference. I require logical consistency in my beliefs, and there are times that I am faced with informtion that I cannot reconcile. It may take me months, perhaps longer, to find a solution. But my faith is essential to me, and so i keep at it. Truth wills out in the end I find every time.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hello,
I myself am currently a University Student studying mathematics, and have been quite challenged on my faith. I am a devout Catholic, and although I have managed to find some students on the same boat, most are not. Oh, I live in Ontario by the way.

There are three main problems with the University environment that create sinful attitudes.

1. Liberalism - Everywhere you go there is always something sinful being done. You look at the posters and you see some gay rights poster, or pro-choice ad. If you go to class, you hear about how the Catholic Church did this bad thing or that (clearly taken out of context), but how wonderful our governmental system is or our University system is. Atheist perspectives are hammered into students. Infact 14% of Mathematicians and even less of biologists believe in God. How sad. For example, I remember a Professor of Physics saying that this lecture was his favourite part because he got to “play God” so to speak.
2. Pride: Students who learn begin to become arrogant and prideful of how smart they have become. They become self -centred and believe that they are smarter than everyone else. Trust me, I’m in math, and the amount of arrogant people I have to deal with is overwhelming. Everything becomes a competition. However, for all their knowledge, they sure are foolish when it comes to one thing, asking questions and challenging the professors.
3. Challenge: Students don’t challenge professors! They believe them to be infallible beings who are never wrong. I am not even talking about just math. In sociology, bogus theories about human behaviour come about, and everyone is just amazed, meanwhile they make no sense. For example, studies show that children without one father or mother are more likely to have problems than those who do. Yet when it comes to a gay couple adopting children, when the Pope said that it was disorderly, they said that he had not right to say such things because there was no such evidence. Students are lead to believe religion has no affect on happiness, and that other liberal life styles are normal. And not one person asks why? Students fall for anything. Everyone says that evolution is so good and a “scientific fact”, and yet not 50 years ago, professors where teaching that race affected the brain size, which was not only wrong (disproven today) but also racist.

I have even had other Christian groups come to me and try to convert me! Anyways, the second they do, I give them a piece of theology and they quickly move on to someone more vulnerable to give pamphlets to.

In closing students have poor foundations in their faith, and if they have any, they are too scared to speak up, because right now, Catholics are the minority, and to be one is to go against the flow of the “intellectuals”. God bless.

As I said in another post, new information can threaten faith, but that is but the start of a journey to search more for truth. I would agree that sometimes we have to let go of long held beliefs. We may reorient or faith some times. But faith should prevail if one does the necessary work to reconcile the new ideas with what you believe. At least it always has for me. Of course, some people are unwilling to adjust their beliefs at all, and for them new ideas are dangerous indeed. But hiding from ideas is never a rational decision in my opinion.

 

[buffalo]

I’m sorry but I’m not aware of what you mean by “age of thinking.” Could you explain?

The bottom line question I was asking was - does critical thinking happen as a result of age and experience and not necessarily tied to a college experience?

 

[JonW]

I can’t even begin to wrap my brain around the concept that education at higher institutions of learning is somehow the cause of the world being in a bad way.

I think that ideas exercise a considerable influence in Western culture, and culture generally. It would stand to reason that those charged with teaching and disseminating ideas among the educated population are going to have an impact on how their students view the world around them. This is almost always positive. Additionally, in most philopsophy departments, the introductory logic courses are routinely full, as it fulfills a requirement. I am sorry to say that the mathematical logic courses in the math department aren’t so popular. As well, the introductory philosophy classes are often full. People learn a good deal in these courses. But I’m not talknig about critical thinking. I’m talking about herd thinking, and the ideological biases that are the inevitable result. In almost every “humanities” course I have ever taken, quite a few biases along these lines slipped through into the general environment of the discussion (i.e. what is coverd in the course, how it’s read, and how it’s taught). I am also sad to say that the sentiments were almost universally weighted in one particular direction. It doesn’t matter which direction. To someone who doesn’t know any better (undergraduates) this can have a very profound effect on their world view, character, political and social concerns, etc. I agree with the previous poster who pointed out that things often change or at least balance off once the people settle down to married life, but in the process, much has often been lost. Again, I am not talkng about critical thinking. As a matter of fact, it’s interesting to see how many of us are capable of critical thinking but fail to use it in areas in which we are most passionate. This isn’t so surprising though, right? This is because critical thought requires not just knowledge about how to analyze, but the discipline to use it when it is appropriate. There are very few people on earth who are capable of this kind of detached discipline on every issue that cries out for analysis. That’s what makes herd thinking so powerful. I am not claiming conspiracy; I am claiming stupidity, or perhaps inattentiveness, or maybe irresponsibility. This is a part of dishonesty, but not all or most. So, the offending parties are free from blame or demonization. I am trying to provide an explanation, not “play a blame game.” I am not interested in those kinds of games.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn

 

[Pug]

It would seem that a disproportionate percentage of those undertaking higher education have standpoints which differ from the traditional interpretation of the church.

You said “undertaking”, not “undertook and completed”. This brings to my mind the fact that those who go to college are mostly self-selected. Perhaps, then, there is a difference before the education is given to the student.

Also, JohW, I am unclear what point you are making about students taking logic in one division and not another. Are you trying to say that the math division course would be rigorous and the philosophy division would not? I guess I need more clarification.

 

[hasikelee]

Given modern communications can people really be kept away from ideas that challenge their faith? Probably only if they withdraw from the world and don’t talk with anyone outside their circle. Therefore, surely it is better that people have the tools to deal with alternative ideas and university education offers them the chance to develop further skills they should have already been introduced at home, school, and I would hope, at church.

Hasikelee – Some of us keep thinking and re-figuring things out so it’s not just a period of our life. It’s part of our life’s work.

Well, yes, I didn’t mean to imply that we stumble past the age of 24 and a lightbulb appears above our head (although that might happen to a few)

The traditional idea of going to college around age 18, moving away from the parents, living all alone on campus, totally immersed in “you” activities for “your” life, on average not working at all, on average tuition paid by parents or put on strange, extended loans, spending day after day listening to cocaine smoking teachers…sounds like an easy way to fall into the rabbit hole after Alice in Wonderland.