Does a University education create sinners?

[Predikant]

Does a University education create sinners?

What does Christ has to say about worldly wisdom?

Book 1 - Chapter 33
www.saintbirgitta.com

Some of my friends are like scholars with three characteristics: first, a discerning intelligence beyond what is natural to the brain; second, wisdom without human aid, inasmuch as I myself teach them inwardly; third, they are full of the sweetness and divine love with which they defeat the devil. But nowadays people go about their studies in a different way. First, they seek knowledge out of arrogance in order to be called good scholars. Second, they seek knowledge in order to keep and obtain riches. Third, they seek knowledge in order to win honors and privileges.

Accordingly, when they go to their schools and enter there, I will leave them, since they study because of pride, whereas I taught them humility. They enter out of greed, whereas I had nowhere to lay my head. They enter in order to win privileges, envious that others are more highly placed than themselves, whereas I was sentenced by Pilate and mocked by Herod. That is why I will leave them, because they are not studying my teachings. However, because I am good and kind, I give each one what he asks for.
He who asks for bread will get it, but he who asks for straw will be given straw. My friends ask for bread, because they seek and study the divine wisdom where my love can be found. Others, however, ask for straw, that is, worldly wisdom. Just as straw is useless and the food of irrational animals, so too there is neither use for the wisdom of the world that they seek nor nourishment for the soul. There is nothing but a small reputation and meaningless toil, for when a man dies, all his wisdom is blotted out of existence and those who used to praise him can no longer see him.

I am like a great lord with many servants who, on their lord’s behalf, distribute to the people what they need. In this way the good angels and the bad angels stand under my authority. The good angels minister to the people who study my wisdom, I mean those who serve me, nourishing them with consolation and enjoyable work. The bad angels assist the worldly wise. They inspire what they want in them and form them after their will, inspiring speculation along with a great deal of work. Yet, if they would turn their eyes toward me, I could give them bread they did not have to work for and enough of the world to satisfy them. But they never get enough of the world, since they turn sweet into sour for themselves.

But you, my bride, should be like cheese, and your body like the mold in which the cheese is molded until it has the shape of the mold. In this way, your soul, which is as delightful and good-tasting to me as cheese, must be tried and cleansed in the body long enough for body and soul to reach an accord and for both to maintain the same form of continence, so that the flesh obeys the spirit and the spirit guides the flesh toward every virtue.

www.saintbirgitta.com

 

[DL82]

One big spiritual advantage of University education is critical thinking, at least more educated people are less likely to believe uncritically the reactionary drivel written by the likes of Richard Dawkins, Dan Brown, etc.

 

[thomfra]

Faith is not worth anything if it cannot withstand the community of ideas in my book. Truth has that ability, it withstands all attempts to denigrate it.

So in essence, given that the educated (in general) are turning from the more conservative aspects of religion, there must be millions (perhaps billions) who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to the letter, who would change their viewpoints with any sort of exposure to a divsersity of ideas.

Or said more bluntly - their faith is based, in part, on ignorance.

 

[fix]

So in essence, given that the educated (in general) are turning from the more conservative aspects of religion, there must be millions (perhaps billions) who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to the letter, who would change their viewpoints with any sort of exposure to a divsersity of ideas.

Or said more bluntly - their faith is based, in part, on ignorance.

True faith does not contradict reason or education. If folks fall away that does not make them better “educated”.

 

[thomfra]

True faith does not contradict reason or education. If folks fall away that does not make them better “educated”.

I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that higher education seems to make people, (not all people, but many) fall away.

It stands to reason that if everybody was given a University education, there would be far fewer Catholics. At least far fewer Catholics who would describe themselves as “conservative”.

Or rather, “true faith” as you descibe it, is a lot less common than one would think based on the numbers of catholics in the world, and how many of them have access to a University education.

 

[buffalo]

I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that higher education seems to make people, (not all people, but many) fall away.

It stands to reason that if everybody was given a University education, there would be far fewer Catholics. At least far fewer Catholics who would describe themselves as “conservative”.

Or rather, “true faith” as you descibe it, is a lot less common than one would think based on the numbers of catholics in the world, and how many of them have access to a University education.

Unless it was from a fine Catholic university who can teach unabashedly the beauty of Catholicism.

If students are taught critical thnking wothout the breadth of subject matter to think about it can have disastrous results, much like indoctrinization by the willing. Philosophy, metaphysics, science, history , mathematics all must be delved into.

 

[Wollie]

I think is all people had college educations we’d have a lot less cradle Catholics who are Catholic in name only. What kind of person hears something from someone they don’t even know (a professor) and goes, “Ya thats defiantly right! what were my parents thinking!” If those are the kind of Catholics parents are raising, then the fault lies on the parents and our religious education. How are we supposed to stand up and defend our Faith if we never have it challenged and learn the answers to difficult questions.

I have a friend who had a professor that required all students to write a report on the “value of abortion in our society.” She told the professor that should could not write the paper because she of her moral convictions. My friend wrote a paper on the evils of abortion and failed the class. We need Catholics who can defend the faith not ones who are can be swayed by someone just because they have a doctorate in some field.

Yes, universities can be morally reprehensible places, but so can the world! We are called to live in the world but not be of the world.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I think is all people had college educations we’d have a lot less cradle Catholics who are Catholic in name only. What kind of person hears something from someone they don’t even know (a professor) and goes, “Ya thats defiantly right! what were my parents thinking!” If those are the kind of Catholics parents are raising, then the fault lies on the parents and our religious education. How are we supposed to stand up and defend our Faith if we never have it challenged and learn the answers to difficult questions.

I have a friend who had a professor that required all students to write a report on the “value of abortion in our society.” She told the professor that should could not write the paper because she of her moral convictions. My friend wrote a paper on the evils of abortion and failed the class. We need Catholics who can defend the faith not ones who are can be swayed by someone just because they have a doctorate in some field.

Yes, universities can be morally reprehensible places, but so can the world! We are called to live in the world but not be of the world.

My niece did a debate in HS and deliberately chose the pro-life side. She researched her brains out and got all of her information from unbiased sources. After she finished, her teacher said, “You did an amazing job, and even though I don’t agree with your conclusion, you clearly won the debate.” She ended up with an A. Not all teachers will condemn a person who takes an position that opposes them-if the person taking that position comes with good research showing that they’ve gone beyond emotion.

 

[onetruechurch]

In my “humble opinion”:

By the time a student reaches college age he/she has had to first succeed in a competitive high school environment. Sometimes, but not always, the student had to step on others to get that special grade or award. Then, if the college he/she attends is considered a prestigious institution the feeling of pride starts to take over. What I am saying is, many of the college students are already stained by the sin of Pride.

David Horivitz (spelling unknown?) has written books about the liberal corruption of the universities. Conservative speakers or lectures are not allowed to come on campus.

Books by Aquinas, Chesterton, and other great thinkers are not even in most college bookstores. Instead the shelves are filled with alternate lifestyle texts.

Many highly educated gals here on the left coast believe abortion is an act of kindness. Even if they believe the fetus is an actual person they can rationalize that the “baby” is better off going straight to heaven without passing “go” here on this earth of tears and poverty. They also rationalize that God is a good God and would not put anyone in an eternal hell for committing a sin that only lasted a few minutes. The old fashioned church is no longer needed. The “smarter than thou crowd” can turn any teaching of the church upsidedown and try to make us look foolish.

 

[fix]

I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that higher education seems to make people, (not all people, but many) fall away.

But is it simply the education or is it a flaw in their formation as well?

It stands to reason that if everybody was given a University education, there would be far fewer Catholics. At least far fewer Catholics who would describe themselves as “conservative”.

That seems to prove that many Catholics are not educated in their faith, or perhaps are easily led astray by faculty who are regarded as infallible. Would not a deep thinker question what they are taught in college or do they only question Church teachings?

Or rather, “true faith” as you descibe it, is a lot less common than one would think based on the numbers of catholics in the world, and how many of them have access to a University education.

Ideologies such as relativism are very common these days. College simply reinforces it I guess.

 

[Fitswimmer]

In my “humble opinion”:

By the time a student reaches college age he/she has had to first succeed in a competitive high school environment. Sometimes, but not always, the student had to step on others to get that special grade or award. Then, if the college he/she attends is considered a prestigious institution the feeling of pride starts to take over. What I am saying is, many of the college students are already stained by the sin of Pride.

David Horivitz (spelling unknown?) has written books about the liberal corruption of the universities. Conservative speakers or lectures are not allowed to come on campus.

Books by Aquinas, Chesterton, and other great thinkers are not even in most college bookstores. Instead the shelves are filled with alternate lifestyle texts.

Many highly educated gals here on the left coast believe abortion is an act of kindness. Even if they believe the fetus is an actual person they can rationalize that the “baby” is better off going straight to heaven without passing “go” here on this earth of tears and poverty. They also rationalize that God is a good God and would not put anyone in an eternal hell for committing a sin that only lasted a few minutes. The old fashioned church is no longer needed. The “smarter than thou crowd” can turn any teaching of the church upsidedown and try to make us look foolish.

If they can do that so easily, then we’re doing something wrong. Perhaps we need to look internally to see what we aren’t doing for our kids long before they go to college that makes them so vulnerable to the first new idea that comes down the pike.

 

[graceandglory]

YES.

Just like TV does and the Internet does.

I’m a firm believer in “people will find what they are looking for.”

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The bottom line question I was asking was - does critical thinking happen as a result of age and experience and not necessarily tied to a college experience?

My opinion is that it has almost nothing to do with age, but is a taught skill. My husband and I were discussing it last evening. He is one of those rare birds for which critical thinking started when he was a child. He was the bane of his teachers because he always questioned EVERYTHING he was taught, and they often got mad, just wanting him to memorize it and shut up. A couple encouraged his curiosity. He says he got it from his father who would always ask them questions at the dinner table and require they give answers, and then argue points with them.

I on the other hand really didn’t acquire the talent very well until I was in graduate school learning theology and biblical studies. My legal education taught critical thinking but in a very very limited arena. It was Catholic clergy and sisters, all theologians who really pushed me, and required me to read at times things that were very divergent.

I recognize that that is anecdotal, but truly as I survey all the people I know, I don’t find that age has anything to do with it. Some people get the education from parents or teachers, and some never do. College certainly offers it, but again, it may be somewhat discipline dependent. Philosophy would be the best I assume, but also history.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

One big spiritual advantage of University education is critical thinking, at least more educated people are less likely to believe uncritically the reactionary drivel written by the likes of Richard Dawkins, Dan Brown, etc.

I agree, and moreover, I find that people who are educated in this manner also don’t waste much time worrying about such people. I can still not get over the hoopla regarding either. One is a fine scientist and his opinions are his own, the other a writer of fictional works. Why I should care is beyond me.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

So in essence, given that the educated (in general) are turning from the more conservative aspects of religion, there must be millions (perhaps billions) who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to the letter, who would change their viewpoints with any sort of exposure to a divsersity of ideas.

Or said more bluntly - their faith is based, in part, on ignorance.

I don’t know exactly how you get from what I said to such a conclusion. But it is your conclusion not mine. I doubt that anyone who is a great thinker would disagree that truth does survive the marketplace of ideas. And any attempt to avoid that shows a general weakness of truth. In some sense to avoid education is to act as Big Brother-- the I know better than you mentality. Such a theory has been the calling card of much of our political leadership of recent. Lying to us for our own good because we are incapable of understanding the truth is hardly something I want to see in my faith.

I cannot speak to whether as you say the more educated move away from the conservative mold of religion is true or not, and certainly whether it is the right response. Again, over time, truth will out of that I am convinced. The Church at one time did try to confine learning to only the clergy and did not wish the laity to read the bible. I think they have been admirable in seeing the error of that and have encouraged education in all things of faith since.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

My niece did a debate in HS and deliberately chose the pro-life side. She researched her brains out and got all of her information from unbiased sources. After she finished, her teacher said, “You did an amazing job, and even though I don’t agree with your conclusion, you clearly won the debate.” She ended up with an A. Not all teachers will condemn a person who takes an position that opposes them-if the person taking that position comes with good research showing that they’ve gone beyond emotion.

I agree. And it is intellectually dishonest to claim a position without being willing to seriously investigate the other side of the issue. That is what is not critical thinking.

 

[thomfra]

I don’t know exactly how you get from what I said to such a conclusion. But it is your conclusion not mine. I doubt that anyone who is a great thinker would disagree that truth does survive the marketplace of ideas. And any attempt to avoid that shows a general weakness of truth. In some sense to avoid education is to act as Big Brother-- the I know better than you mentality. Such a theory has been the calling card of much of our political leadership of recent. Lying to us for our own good because we are incapable of understanding the truth is hardly something I want to see in my faith.

I cannot speak to whether as you say the more educated move away from the conservative mold of religion is true or not, and certainly whether it is the right response. Again, over time, truth will out of that I am convinced. The Church at one time did try to confine learning to only the clergy and did not wish the laity to read the bible. I think they have been admirable in seeing the error of that and have encouraged education in all things of faith since.

Again - I am speaking in generalities here.

Nobody (least of all me) is saying “avoid education”.

The point is - A University education be it vocational (or more general) seems to lead people to a more liberal “understanding” of christianity. Since a University education is really only availible to those of us living in developed countries (and in the case of the USA - those with money), this implies that there are millions/billions more who would have this liberal understanding (rightly or wrongly) if given the same education.

btw: I think it is dangerous to speak of “truths” in general. It’s all just beliefs. Even the greatest scientific minds agree that it is impossible to remove the observer from the experiment. (ref. example of wave/partical duality and the nature of light).

 

[JonW]

Also, JohW, I am unclear what point you are making about students taking logic in one division and not another. Are you trying to say that the math division course would be rigorous and the philosophy division would not? I guess I need more clarification.

Yes, math logic and traditional symbolic logic are entirely different beasts. You need to know quite a bit of math to do the former, which I suppose plays a role in somewhat lower registrants.

Generally, only math majors take it, but sometimes you’ll see philosophy folks there.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn

 

[DL82]

Maybe the Church does need to look more at how it can appeal to educated people. I mean, the Catholic Church has an incredibly rich philosophical and intellectual tradition. Unfortunately, the study of this tradition has often been exclusively reserved for priests and religious.

Here at my University, for example, there is a 2 year part-time course, run in conjunction with the local seminary, which aims to train parish catechists. There is a college in England that offers a 5 year part-time Bachelors’ degree in Catholic Philosophy, ratified by the Lateran University, which people can dip in and out of, as well as various short courses on apologetics, doctrine, etc.

If people are already interested in studying the world with some depth and intellectual rigour, they will want to study their faith with the same rigour. If all the Catholic chaplaincies of our Universities can offer are prayer groups, retreats and social gatherings (although of course those things are important) eventually people will get the idea that their faith doesn’t have the same intellectual depth as their academic studies, and they will leave their faith behind as something childish.

 

[thomfra]

Maybe the Church does need to look more at how it can appeal to educated people. I mean, the Catholic Church has an incredibly rich philosophical and intellectual tradition. Unfortunately, the study of this tradition has often been exclusively reserved for priests and religious.

Here at my University, for example, there is a 2 year part-time course, run in conjunction with the local seminary, which aims to train parish catechists. There is a college in England that offers a 5 year part-time Bachelors’ degree in Catholic Philosophy, ratified by the Lateran University, which people can dip in and out of, as well as various short courses on apologetics, doctrine, etc.

If people are already interested in studying the world with some depth and intellectual rigour, they will want to study their faith with the same rigour. If all the Catholic chaplaincies of our Universities can offer are prayer groups, retreats and social gatherings (although of course those things are important) eventually people will get the idea that their faith doesn’t have the same intellectual depth as their academic studies, and they will leave their faith behind as something childish.

This is a great post. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head! And finally somebody coming up with some solutions or suggestions instead of just blaming _________ (insert gays, liberals, academics, young people etc etc).

A good deal of the sermons at a Catholic church could do with an injection of academic rigour as well. Sometimes is feels so dumbed down.