Does a valid Protestant baptism wash away sins?

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Roman Catholic baptisms done by immersion are usually considered valid, but not much else. This is not to say though that some “branches” are willing and have by passed this and allowed non-Catholic baptism to be recognized as valid. I have heard this happens in the Orthodox Church of America.
You misunderstand my request bro. I was asking how should baptism be done, that would be considered as valid? I just want to know how it is done in Orthodox.

Would Orthodox consider the baptism of desire (outside of Orthodox Church) valid?

Thanks.

Reuben
 
Of course. The “baptism” would mean nothing because it is not recognized as valid.
St Basil the Great, and by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, established the principle that outside the Holy Orthodox Church there is no valid baptism. On a side note, this is interesting because it is the same council that declared one of the Popes to be a heretic.
Not so. Your post reflects an overly-simplistic view of what Basil (and other fathers) taught about baptism, as well as the bishops at Trullo.

In the Orthodox Church, a consistent position on the reception of those baptized in other communions is much more difficult, though not impossible, to discern. On the one hand, since the Council in Trullo (692), the canonical collections authoritative in Orthodoxy have included the enactments of third-century North African councils presided over by Cyprian of Carthage, as well as the important late-fourth-century Eastern collection, The Apostolic Canons. Cyprian’s position, supported by his contemporary bishop Firmilian of Caesaraea in Cappadocia, was that salvation and grace are not mediated by schismatic communities, so that baptism administered outside the universal apostolic communion is simply invalid as an act of Christian initiation, deprived of the life-giving Spirit (see Cyprian, Epp. 69.7; 71.1; 73.2; 75.17, 22-25). Influential as it was to be, Cyprian and Firmilian both acknowledge that their position on baptism is a relatively new one, forged probably in the 230s to deal with the extraordinary new challenges presented by Christian sectarianism in an age of persecution, but following logically from a clear sense of the Church’s boundaries. The Apostolic Canons, included in the larger Apostolic Constitutions and probably representative of Church discipline in Syria during the 380s, identifies sacraments celebrated by “heretics” as illegitimate (can. 45 [46]), although it is not clear in what sense the word “heretic” is being used; the following canon brands it as equally sacrilegious for a bishop or presbyter to rebaptize someone who is already truly baptized, and to recognize the baptism of “someone who has been polluted by the ungodly.” Both Cyprian and the Apostolic Canons, in any case, draw a sharp line between the authentic visible Church and every other group which exists outside its boundaries, and accords no value whatever to the rites of those “outside.” On the other hand, continuing Eastern practice from at least the fourth century has followed a more nuanced position. This position is reflected in Basil of Caesarea’s First Canonical Epistle (Ep. 188, dated 374), addressed to Amphilochius of Iconium, which–claiming to follow the practice of “the ancients”–distinguishes among three types of groups “outside” the Church: heretics, “who differ with regard to faith in God;” schismatics, who are separated from the body of the Church “for some ecclesiastical reasons and differ from other [Christians] on questions that can be resolved;” and “parasynagogues,” or dissidents who have formed rival communities simply in opposition to legitimate authority (Ep. 188.1). Only in the case of heretics in the strict sense—those with a different understanding of God, among whom Basil includes Manichaeans, Gnostics, and Marcionites–is baptism required for entry into communion with the Church. Concerning the second and third groups, Basil declares that they are still “of the Church,” and as such are to be admitted into full communion without baptism. This policy is also reflected in Canon 95 of the Council in Trullo, which distinguishes between “Severians” (i.e., non-Chalcedonians) and Nestorians, who are to be received by confession of faith; schismatics, who are to be received by chrismation; and heretics, who alone require baptism. Thus, in spite of the solemn rulings of the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils against their christological positions, “Severians” and Nestorians are clearly reckoned as still “of the Church,” and seem to be understood in Basil’s category of “parasynagogues;” their baptisms are thus understood–to use scholastic language–as valid, if perhaps illicit.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/baptism-and-sacramental-economy.cfm
 
You misunderstand my request bro. I was asking how should baptism be done, that would be considered as valid? I just want to know how it is done in Orthodox.

Would Orthodox consider the baptism of desire (outside of Orthodox Church) valid?

Thanks.

Reuben
I think you misunderstood me, sorry, let me clarify.
It is only valid in the way I describe, Roman Catholic (immersion) or Orthodox. Anything outside of those two things is usually rejected. So, I suppose, it doesn’t matter as much “how” as “who”; although the how does play into it as well. But for example, if a Mormon performed the exact same baptism, it would still mean nothing, because the Mormon did it. Does that make sense and clarify and answer your question?
 
Not so. Your post reflects an overly-simplistic view of what Basil (and other fathers) taught about baptism, as well as the bishops at Trullo.

In the Orthodox Church, a consistent position on the reception of those baptized in other communions is much more difficult, though not impossible, to discern. On the one hand, since the Council in Trullo (692), the canonical collections authoritative in Orthodoxy have included the enactments of third-century North African councils presided over by Cyprian of Carthage, as well as the important late-fourth-century Eastern collection, The Apostolic Canons. Cyprian’s position, supported by his contemporary bishop Firmilian of Caesaraea in Cappadocia, was that salvation and grace are not mediated by schismatic communities, so that baptism administered outside the universal apostolic communion is simply invalid as an act of Christian initiation, deprived of the life-giving Spirit (see Cyprian, Epp. 69.7; 71.1; 73.2; 75.17, 22-25). Influential as it was to be, Cyprian and Firmilian both acknowledge that their position on baptism is a relatively new one, forged probably in the 230s to deal with the extraordinary new challenges presented by Christian sectarianism in an age of persecution, but following logically from a clear sense of the Church’s boundaries. The Apostolic Canons, included in the larger Apostolic Constitutions and probably representative of Church discipline in Syria during the 380s, identifies sacraments celebrated by “heretics” as illegitimate (can. 45 [46]), although it is not clear in what sense the word “heretic” is being used; the following canon brands it as equally sacrilegious for a bishop or presbyter to rebaptize someone who is already truly baptized, and to recognize the baptism of “someone who has been polluted by the ungodly.” Both Cyprian and the Apostolic Canons, in any case, draw a sharp line between the authentic visible Church and every other group which exists outside its boundaries, and accords no value whatever to the rites of those “outside.” On the other hand, continuing Eastern practice from at least the fourth century has followed a more nuanced position. This position is reflected in Basil of Caesarea’s First Canonical Epistle (Ep. 188, dated 374), addressed to Amphilochius of Iconium, which–claiming to follow the practice of “the ancients”–distinguishes among three types of groups “outside” the Church: heretics, “who differ with regard to faith in God;” schismatics, who are separated from the body of the Church “for some ecclesiastical reasons and differ from other [Christians] on questions that can be resolved;” and “parasynagogues,” or dissidents who have formed rival communities simply in opposition to legitimate authority (Ep. 188.1). Only in the case of heretics in the strict sense—those with a different understanding of God, among whom Basil includes Manichaeans, Gnostics, and Marcionites–is baptism required for entry into communion with the Church. Concerning the second and third groups, Basil declares that they are still “of the Church,” and as such are to be admitted into full communion without baptism. This policy is also reflected in Canon 95 of the Council in Trullo, which distinguishes between “Severians” (i.e., non-Chalcedonians) and Nestorians, who are to be received by confession of faith; schismatics, who are to be received by chrismation; and heretics, who alone require baptism. Thus, in spite of the solemn rulings of the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils against their christological positions, “Severians” and Nestorians are clearly reckoned as still “of the Church,” and seem to be understood in Basil’s category of “parasynagogues;” their baptisms are thus understood–to use scholastic language–as valid, if perhaps illicit.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/baptism-and-sacramental-economy.cfm
Well that is from a Catholic source, so are you arguing against what I said about baptism? Because it was an answer in regard to Orthodox baptism, not what the Catholic Bishops thought about Orthodox think about baptism, so I guess its not really a good argument. As far as the heretic part, that again is an Orthodox viewpoint, I am not sure if that is shared by the Latins or not. However, even your document shows some support:

“The Apostolic Canons, included in the larger Apostolic Constitutions and probably representative of Church discipline in Syria during the 380s, identifies sacraments celebrated by “heretics” as illegitimate (can. 45 [46])”

“distinguishes among three types of groups “outside” the Church: heretics, “who differ with regard to faith in God;” schismatics, who are separated from the body of the Church “for some ecclesiastical reasons and differ from other [Christians] on questions that can be resolved;” and “parasynagogues,” or dissidents who have formed rival communities simply in opposition to legitimate authority (Ep. 188.1)”

This is what I said: heretics = non-Orthodox
Schismatics = Catholics
Parasynagogues = breakaway Orthodox groups (and this one sometimes is and sometimes is not valid)
I think the “interpretation” at the end is maybe misplaced, but again this is a council (i belive the Latins rejected) and it is the Latin “interpretation” through the catholic bishops of an Orthodox perspective — that doesnt really make sense.
 
You misunderstand my request bro. I was asking how should baptism be done, that would be considered as valid? I just want to know how it is done in Orthodox.

Would Orthodox consider the baptism of desire (outside of Orthodox Church) valid?

Thanks.

Reuben
Even within Catholic thought, the category “valid” does not apply to baptism of desire. With respect to baptism, validity refers to the reception of the valid sacrament (the effect of which, minimally speaking, is the conferral of the baptismal character). In the case of baptism of desire, there is no sacrament received (only a portion of the grace that is connected with the reception of the sacrament), so there is not any question of validity, at least in the same sense that we mean it when speaking of a sacrament. A less confusing term might be “efficacious” or something along those lines.
 
Even within Catholic thought, the category “valid” does not apply to baptism of desire. With respect to baptism, validity refers to the reception of the valid sacrament (the effect of which, minimally speaking, is the conferral of the baptismal character). In the case of baptism of desire, there is no sacrament received (only a portion of the grace that is connected with the reception of the sacrament), so there is not any question of validity, at least in the same sense that we mean it when speaking of a sacrament. A less confusing term might be “efficacious” or something along those lines.
Thank you for that, but I do not know what this baptism is, can you explain it?
 
Well that is from a Catholic source, so are you arguing against what I said about baptism? Because it was an answer in regard to Orthodox baptism, not what the Catholic Bishops thought about Orthodox think about baptism, so I guess its not really a good argument. As far as the heretic part, that again is an Orthodox viewpoint, I am not sure if that is shared by the Latins or not. However, even your document shows some support:

“The Apostolic Canons, included in the larger Apostolic Constitutions and probably representative of Church discipline in Syria during the 380s, identifies sacraments celebrated by “heretics” as illegitimate (can. 45 [46])”

“distinguishes among three types of groups “outside” the Church: heretics, “who differ with regard to faith in God;” schismatics, who are separated from the body of the Church “for some ecclesiastical reasons and differ from other [Christians] on questions that can be resolved;” and “parasynagogues,” or dissidents who have formed rival communities simply in opposition to legitimate authority (Ep. 188.1)”

This is what I said: heretics = non-Orthodox
Schismatics = Catholics
Parasynagogues = breakaway Orthodox groups (and this one sometimes is and sometimes is not valid)
I think the “interpretation” at the end is maybe misplaced, but again this is a council (i belive the Latins rejected) and it is the Latin “interpretation” through the catholic bishops of an Orthodox perspective — that doesnt really make sense.
(1) The document I linked to is not a merely Catholic source. It is the product of a joint Catholic-Orthodox commission so, while not magisterial, it is representative of parties on both sides (see here).

(2) Your statement regarding St. Basil was inaccurate, since he explicitly says in his epistle, that only in the case of heretics whose concept of God is beyond the pale are converts to be re-baptized. This would not include Christological heresies like the Monophysitism, but generally speaking, denial of the Trinity. Hence, as I recall, he uses the example of the Montanists, saying that even though they baptize with a Trinitarian form, there baptism is invalid because by this they implicitly are baptizing in the name of Montanus or Priscilla. This is in conformity with the Latin teaching, which rejects Mormon baptism on account of their non-Trinitarian teaching and other such groups, but otherwise admits the baptism of heretics.

(3) The initial question was concerning the status of baptism conferred by Protestants. Since mainstream Protestants generally retain a correct belief of God, their baptisms would be valid according to the teaching of Basil and the Trullan praxis (though this, as has been said, is not a judgment that such baptisms confer grace universally).

(4) This is only incidental to the topic, but your statement that baptism by pouring is invalid would be difficult to hold, since Christians have always practiced baptism by pouring, even if only in extraordinary circumstances. Think, how would we confer baptism on the sick or those in prison cells if they had to be immersed? There are examples of baptism that almost certainly preclude immersion in Scripture (e.g. the Philippian jailer), the Didache admits pouring as an acceptable method of baptism, church fathers speak of baptism by pouring with approval, and it is a historical fact that baptism was practiced by pouring as the normative method, and this long before any question of permanent schism.
 
Thank you for that, but I do not know what this baptism is, can you explain it?
Following patristic thought, the Catholic Church teaches three baptisms: baptism of desire, baptism of blood, and baptism of water. Only the last of these is the sacrament. Baptism of desire is prior to baptism when through faith and earnest desire of the sacrament, we begin to participate in the life of divine grace. This applies first and foremost to catechumens, who, even if they die before baptism, still have the firm hope of salvation. Baptism of blood refers to martyrdom. This could be either before or after baptism.

Thomas Aquinas outlines the three baptisms in his Summa Theologica.

newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article11
 
Hi, Rita.

So, three of the four marks of the Church, as confessed in the creed for many, many centuries, are somehow no longer meaningful to Lutherans? You no longer believe that the Church must be “one” or “catholic” (universal) or apostolic? Sorry, but IMO this should be called the “Lutheran Creed” rather than the “Apostles Creed”. However, I guess the question needs to be asked: Is this only in the LCMS or is this across the board?
Hi, Steve. Sorry I didn’t see your response and question. This is the Apostles Creed as found on lcms.org:

I 
believe 
in
 God, the
 Father
 Almighty,
maker
 of
 heaven
 and
 earth.

And
 in Jesus
 Christ,
 His 
only
 Son,
 our
 Lord,
 who
 was
 conceived
 by 
the
 Holy
 Spirit,
 born 
of
the
 virgin
 Mary,
 suffered
 under Pontius
 Pilate, was
 crucified,
 died and 
was
 buried.
He

descended into
 hell.
The
 third
 day
 He
 rose
 again from
 the
 dead.
 He ascended into 
heaven

and
 sits
 at
 the 
right 
hand
 of
 God 
the
 Father 
Almighty.
 From
 thence
 He
 will
 come 
to
 judge

the
 living 
and
 the
 dead.
I
 believe 
in 
the
 Holy
 Spirit,
 the
 holy
 Christian
 Church,
 the
 communion 
of
 saints,
 the

forgiveness 
of 
sins,
 the
 resurrection
 of
 the body and the life everlasting.

Christian:
 the
ancient text 
reads 
“catholic,” 
meaning 
the 
whole

Church
 as 
it
 confesses 
the 
wholeness
 of
 Christian
 doctrine.

Maybe someone more attune to LCMS doctrine can elaborate on the reason for the change? Jon NC?
 
Hi, Steve. Sorry I didn’t see your response and question. This is the Apostles Creed as found on lcms.org:

I 
believe 
in
 God, the
 Father
 Almighty,
maker
 of
 heaven
 and
 earth.

And
 in Jesus
 Christ,
 His 
only
 Son,
 our
 Lord,
 who
 was
 conceived
 by 
the
 Holy
 Spirit,
 born 
of
the
 virgin
 Mary,
 suffered
 under Pontius
 Pilate, was
 crucified,
 died and 
was
 buried.
He

descended into
 hell.
The
 third
 day
 He
 rose
 again from
 the
 dead.
 He ascended into 
heaven

and
 sits
 at
 the 
right 
hand
 of
 God 
the
 Father 
Almighty.
 From
 thence
 He
 will
 come 
to
 judge

the
 living 
and
 the
 dead.
I
 believe 
in 
the
 Holy
 Spirit,
 the
 holy
 Christian
 Church,
 the
 communion 
of
 saints,
 the

forgiveness 
of 
sins,
 the
 resurrection
 of
 the body and the life everlasting.

Christian:
 the
ancient text 
reads 
“catholic,” 
meaning 
the 
whole

Church
 as 
it
 confesses 
the 
wholeness
 of
 Christian
 doctrine.

Maybe someone more attune to LCMS doctrine can elaborate on the reason for the change? Jon NC?
Thanks, Rita. This just seems like a huge change to me; not even a paraphrase of the original. This creed, which is attributed to the Apostles, is very intentional in describing the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. At the time it was written, or said, there was only one Church. A church which does not have these four marks would not be the Church the Apostles described. I would really be interested in the purpose of this change.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Peace.

Steve
 
Thanks, Rita. This just seems like a huge change to me; not even a paraphrase of the original. This creed, which is attributed to the Apostles, is very intentional in describing the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. At the time it was written, or said, there was only one Church. A church which does not have these four marks would not be the Church the Apostles described. I would really be interested in the purpose of this change.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Peace.

Steve
Steve, you are absolutely being unfair to her. The creed she gave is exactly the same as the English translation of the Apsotle’s Creed used in the Catholic liturgy, except with the word “Christian” substituted for Catholic. You are confusing the Nicene Creed (which contains the four marks of the Church) that is normally said before the offertory in the mass and the Apostles Creed, which is the Roman baptismal creed and may substituted for the Nicene Creed in the modern ordinary form mass. This is the Apostle’s Creed as given in the old Catholic Encyclopedia (though in a different translation to the current one).

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth
(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
(3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,
(4) Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried;
(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
(6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
(7) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
(8) I believe in the Holy Ghost,
(9) The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints
(10) The forgiveness of sins,
(11) The resurrection of the body, and
(12) life everlasting.

newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm
 
Steve, you are absolutely being unfair to her. The creed she gave is exactly the same as the English translation of the Apsotle’s Creed used in the Catholic liturgy, except with the word “Christian” substituted for Catholic. You are confusing the Nicene Creed (which contains the four marks of the Church) that is normally said before the offertory in the mass and the Apostles Creed, which is the Roman baptismal creed and may substituted for the Nicene Creed in the modern ordinary form mass. This is the Apostle’s Creed as given in the old Catholic Encyclopedia (though in a different translation to the current one).

(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth
(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
(3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,
(4) Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried;
(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
(6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
(7) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
(8) I believe in the Holy Ghost,
(9) The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints
(10) The forgiveness of sins,
(11) The resurrection of the body, and
(12) life everlasting.

newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm
You are exactly right. I was thinking of the Nicene Creed, which goes into more detail on exactly what the Holy Catholic church is: one, holy, catholic and apostolic. My mistake. :o

Apologies, Rita.
 
Hi, Steve. Sorry I didn’t see your response and question. This is the Apostles Creed as found on lcms.org:

I 
believe 
in
 God, the
 Father
 Almighty,
maker
 of
 heaven
 and
 earth.

And
 in Jesus
 Christ,
 His 
only
 Son,
 our
 Lord,
 who
 was
 conceived
 by 
the
 Holy
 Spirit,
 born 
of
the
 virgin
 Mary,
 suffered
 under Pontius
 Pilate, was
 crucified,
 died and 
was
 buried.
He

descended into
 hell.
The
 third
 day
 He
 rose
 again from
 the
 dead.
 He ascended into 
heaven

and
 sits
 at
 the 
right 
hand
 of
 God 
the
 Father 
Almighty.
 From
 thence
 He
 will
 come 
to
 judge

the
 living 
and
 the
 dead.
I
 believe 
in 
the
 Holy
 Spirit,
 the
 holy
 Christian
 Church,
 the
 communion 
of
 saints,
 the

forgiveness 
of 
sins,
 the
 resurrection
 of
 the body and the life everlasting.

Christian:
 the
ancient text 
reads 
“catholic,” 
meaning 
the 
whole

Church
 as 
it
 confesses 
the 
wholeness
 of
 Christian
 doctrine.

Maybe someone more attune to LCMS doctrine can elaborate on the reason for the change? Jon NC?
I take it all back. I feel like Gilda Radner in her role as Rosanna Rosannadanna after going off on something that had nothing to do with the subject at hand and then, lowering her head and stating - “Never mind”. 😃
 
Roman Catholic baptisms done by immersion are usually considered valid, but not much else. This is not to say though that some “branches” are willing and have by passed this and allowed non-Catholic baptism to be recognized as valid. I have heard this happens in the Orthodox Church of America.
That is called Economia.
 
You are exactly right. I was thinking of the Nicene Creed, which goes into more detail on exactly what the Holy Catholic church is: one, holy, catholic and apostolic. My mistake. :o

Apologies, Rita.
It’s an understandable mistake. Hopefully you will hear the Apostle’s Creed at the Easter Vigil liturgy to refresh your memory. 🙂
 
It’s an understandable mistake. Hopefully you will hear the Apostle’s Creed at the Easter Vigil liturgy to refresh your memory. 🙂
No refreshing necessary. I’m quite aware of the difference, thank you. It was an honest mistake. 🤷
 
If an non-Christian decides to convert to a Protestant denomination and is baptized for the first time in his or her life in a way that is considered valid by the Catholic Church, are that person’s sins washed away?
I was baptised in a small protestant church as a baby but didn’t need another baptism when I joined the Catholic Church although I was given a candle.

🙂
 
I believe baptism is the only sacrament in the RCC that is valid even if not performed by a priest as long as it is performed using the Trinitarian formula (in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit).
 
I believe baptism is the only sacrament in the RCC that is valid even if not performed by a priest as long as it is performed using the Trinitarian formula (in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit).
You are right but only in case of necessity. 👍

From the CCC:

V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59
 
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