Does an actual infinte exist?

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I would suspect that it does as a logical concept. Example, take a non zero number and divide it by 2, and continue until you reach absolute 0. This process will run infinitely long. Using the same technique but with matter, we would get as far as the atom and have to stop due to constraints on scientific knowledge. Can you partition an electron/proton/neutron?
 
I don’t see how divinding a non-zero number by two would be an infinite process. I’m not a math oriented person, but here’s how I understnad it:

take a nonzero number (ex- 64)
divide by two until:
absolute 0 is reached.

It would take a long, long time, but eventually you would hit 0. Why? Because if you keep dividing you won’t stop short of 0, but neither will you overshoot 0 and go negative.

I don’t think it’s a logical concept. It’s abstract though- decimals can go on forever (like Pi).

As far as matter is concerned- that’s a good question that I really don’t know the answer to. In theory you can divide and divide and then divide some more, but in reality I think there comes a point where division is no longer possible.
 
Here’s what I find to be more interesting; If you believe that there is no God who created the universe, then the universe must have been created out of absolutely nothing by pure chance
 
Here’s what I find to be more interesting; If you believe that there is no God who created the universe, then the universe must have been created out of absolutely nothing by pure chance
That’s not possible. From nothing, nothing comes.

Imagine a blank sheet of paper. Think of it sitting on a desk with no outside influences on it- no light, no ink, nothing. Just a blank paper on a desk. Now that blank paper will not spontaneously produce a work of art. No, an artist must be present with a pen or paintbrush to create that work of art. Why? Because from nothing, comes nothing.

The same goes for the universe- there must have been a cause to it. It could not have created itself, that’s impossible.

Let’s stay on topic here.

Does an actual infinity exist?
 
I read William Lane Craig’s position on why an actual infinite cannot exist and it seems to work out and make sense. I also read a little of the athiestic viewpoint on actual infinity an why it can exist. I didn’t get the athiestic point very well.

Anyway, does an actual infiniti exist?

Craig’s position:
leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html
I do not find Dr. Craig’s arguments against so-called actual infinities to be persuasive. To be sure, they challenge our intuitions about counting and measurement, but this is no reason to declare them impossible. So I disagree with Dr. Craig when he uses his own intuition to judge what is and is not possible regarding the length of time past.

That said, we neither have any reason to suppose that the past is infinite in length. That information is simply unknown.
 
I don’t see how divinding a non-zero number by two would be an infinite process. I’m not a math oriented person, but here’s how I understnad it:

take a nonzero number (ex- 64)
divide by two until:
absolute 0 is reached.

It would take a long, long time, but eventually you would hit 0. Why? Because if you keep dividing you won’t stop short of 0, but neither will you overshoot 0 and go negative.
Actually you will never hit 0. You be infinitely away from 0, mathematically.

64/2: 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 … 1/(2(m)) where m is the set of all real numbers.
I don’t think it’s a logical concept. It’s abstract though- decimals can go on forever (like Pi).
Can Pi go on forever, I don’t know? :confused: That sounds like a whole other thread.
As far as matter is concerned- that’s a good question that I really don’t know the answer to. In theory you can divide and divide and then divide some more, but in reality I think there comes a point where division is no longer possible.
At the moment, scientifically, this is true for the non-ethereal. How long would a soul exist though? Is it bound by current science? How about an apparition? At least in the concept of faith, infinity must exist right?
 
Here’s what I find to be more interesting; If you believe that there is no God who created the universe, then the universe must have been created out of absolutely nothing by pure chance
Be careful with that logic.

Assumptions:

a) There is no God
b) The universe is created
c) Random chance exists

Fact:

d) The universe exists

So I take it you believe (( a and c ) => ( b <=> d )). The first point I take issue with is random chance. Is anything truly random or are things outside of our predictive scope, at the moment? The next issue is that for something to exist it follows that it was created. Lets examine God. God did not create himself, God has always been. So, why can it not be that the universe has always been? That it was never created?
 
Because it is impossible to traverse an infinite series:

If I told you that I had just counted down from infinity to zero, starting with “infinity minus zero” and carrying on until I reached “infinite minus infinity, i.e zero”, then you would know that this claim is false. Just as it is impossible to count up from zero to infinity, so it is impossible to count down from infinity to zero. If I had started counting down from infinity and kept going, then I would still be counting to this day; I would not have finished. My claim to have counted down from infinity to zero must be false. This is because it is impossible to traverse an infinite series.
The Past Therefore Cannot be Infinite
The idea that the universe has an infinite past is just as problematic as the idea that I have just counted down from infinity. If the universe had an infinite past, then time would have had to count down from infinity to reach time zero, the present, and so would not have reached it. The fact that we have reached the present therefore shows that the past is not infinite but finite. The universe has a beginning. This claim, of course, has been confirmed by modern science, who trace the universe back to a point of origin in the ‘big bang’.
The past cannot go back forever, then; the universe must have a beginning. The next question is whether something caused this beginning, or whether the universe just popped into existence out of nothing. We all know, though, that nothing that begins to exist does so without a cause; nothing comes from nothing. For something to come into existence there must be something else that already exists that can bring it into existence. The fact that the universe began to exist therefore implies that something brought it into existence, that the universe has a Creator.

👍
 
=coolduude;6558581]I read William Lane Craig’s position on why an actual infinite cannot exist and it seems to work out and make sense. I also read a little of the athiestic viewpoint on actual infinity an why it can exist. I didn’t get the athiestic point very well.
Anyway, does an actual infiniti exist?
Souls, minds, intellects and freewills are Spiritual realities, that cannot die or be killed.

Of course eternity exist.
 
Souls, minds, intellects and freewills are Spiritual realities, that cannot die or be killed.

Of course eternity exist.
But the question was ‘does an actual infinity exist?’

Two seperate things.
 
Coolduude,

There are two distinct questions.

First, whether an actual infinite may exist.

Second, whether the past series of events is an actual infinite.

Even if we answer in the affirmative regarding the first question, we still cannot conclude that the universe has a finite beginning in time. We must also affirm the second one.

Now, I’m not saying that there is no way to support this, but Craig’s almost automatic assumption that it must be is peculiarly modern. St. Thomas Aquinas famously held both that no actual infinite may exist, and that the past series of events was only an ‘accidental’ infinite, i.e., not a real, actual infinite.

Craig has some interesting reasons, and rarely is treated fairly by interlocutors, but he has a lot of work to do to ram through his argument here, in my opinion.

-Rob
 
Infinity exists.

I experience it every time I get "Times Out " 🙂
 
I don’t see how divinding a non-zero number by two would be an infinite process. I’m not a math oriented person, but here’s how I understnad it:

take a nonzero number (ex- 64)
divide by two until:absolute 0 is reached.

It would take a long, long time, but eventually you would hit 0. Why? Because if you keep dividing you won’t stop short of 0, but neither will you overshoot 0 and go negative.

I don’t think it’s a logical concept. It’s abstract though- decimals can go on forever (like Pi).

As far as matter is concerned- that’s a good question that I really don’t know the answer to. In theory you can divide and divide and then divide some more, but in reality I think there comes a point where division is no longer possible.
Dude, check your math. Zero is never reached when dividing by 2. You answered yourself with decimals go on forever. Dividing by 2 doesn’t give you a negative number.
 
Infinity, as a conceptual process, certainly exists.

An infinite object, on the other hand, may or may not.

Question: when one describes God’s love as “boundless”, would you consider that infinite? I am not being trite: there are a lot of philosophical subtleties involved.

Also, you may be interested in reading about Zeno’s Paradox.
 
we neither have any reason to suppose that the past is infinite in length. That information is simply unknown.
How can you reason this statement? If time was paused at some time in the past, then something HAD to act upon time to get it to start. That “something” that started time must then exist infinitesimally.
 
Okay. Two different things seem to be going on in this thread. One is the question of whether it is possible for an infinite number of something to exist in reality. The other is the question of whether the universe has a beginning.

I read through most of Craig’s argument for the lack of existence of an actual infinity. I found it less than compelling. Plus, he got some of his facts on quantum physics wrong, which led him to wrong conclusions near the end. But quantum mechanics is hard, so I’ll ignore those for now.

Since the OP specifically asked about infinity, I’ll respond only to that part. The issue with the physical creation of the universe is a more difficult topic, and is still debated in scientific circles. I’m not sure that anyone here (myself in particular) is well-versed enough in the relevant mathematics and empirical results to comment on the origin of the universe in an educated fashion, so I will take the easy route and avoid the topic entirely.

I’m going to say that infinity can exist. For instance, there could be an infinite quantity of empty space in the universe. This empty space could be quantified in some unit, such as hypercubes of some size, in which case there would be an infinite number of those hypercubes. (Note, that whether there really is unbounded empty space in the universe, or whether space is closed, is still not entirely clear.)

As lynx sort of suggested, we could also consider the infinitely small. Now this is more of a debate on whether you consider the universe to be continuous or discrete in nature. If the universe is discrete (and space is closed, as mentioned earlier), then there is almost certainly not an infinite quantity of anything. We know that matter and energy are discrete. That is to say, there is a “smallest” unit of energy, and it is impossible to find any energy in the universe that is in a smaller unit than that smallest unit, called a quantum. Thus, we cannot divide matter up into an infinitely small quantity. We are less certain about space and time. There are concepts called the Planck length and Planck time, but these are theoretical constructs, and are not necessarily physical boundaries on reality.

Assuming that space and time are continuous in nature (i.e. there is no “smallest” unit of space-time allowed by the universe), than infinity does exist in the sense that within every finite unit of space there exists an infinite number of infinitesimal units of that space, each having size 0.

(Aside: In response to that, you might say, “Well, White_Tree, if I have a bunch of units all of size 0, and I add them up, then I still get 0, since 0 + 0 + 0 + … = 0. That defies logic, so your argument doesn’t hold.” However, that argument about an infinite sum of zeroes does not apply in this case, because such a series is only valid when considering countable infinities (i.e. those infinite sets whose elements have a one-to-one mapping to the natural numbers). However, in dividing a finite unit of space into an infinite number of infinitesimal units, there would naturally need to be an uncountably infinite quantity of such units, to which such an infinite series argument does not apply.)

And Coolduude, I think your counterexample about “counting to infinity” or back again is somewhat off-base, because it implicitly assumes that infinity is a number, which it isn’t. There is no number “infinity,” and thus you cannot count to it (or from it, for that matter).

So I’m going to say that an actual infinity can indeed exist, conditional on some quantity in the universe being continuous, or on space not looping back on itself. Either one of those assumptions holding would grant us the existence of an “actual” infinity.

Edit: Silly me. I almost forgot. Black holes, too. Black holes have positive mass and zero volume. Thus, they have infinite density. There’s an example for you of a physical object in the universe that has infinite something. So an actual infinity does exist, in terms of the density of black holes. That was easy. 🙂
 
Plus, he got some of his facts on quantum physics wrong, which led him to wrong conclusions near the end. But quantum mechanics is hard, so I’ll ignore those for now.
What did he get wrong specifically? And, no offense here, I’ll stick with Craig if or until you prove him wrong.
I’m going to say that infinity can exist. For instance, there could be an infinite quantity of empty space in the universe. This empty space could be quantified in some unit, such as hypercubes of some size, in which case there would be an infinite number of those hypercubes. (Note, that whether there really is unbounded empty space in the universe, or whether space is closed, is still not entirely clear.)
Not quite getting that, but ok! 😛
Assuming that space and time are continuous in nature (i.e. there is no “smallest” unit of space-time allowed by the universe), than infinity does exist in the sense that within every finite unit of space there exists an infinite number of infinitesimal units of that space, each having size 0.
(Aside: In response to that, you might say, “Well, White_Tree, if I have a bunch of units all of size 0, and I add them up, then I still get 0, since 0 + 0 + 0 + … = 0. That defies logic, so your argument doesn’t hold.” However, that argument about an infinite sum of zeroes does not apply in this case, because such a series is only valid when considering countable infinities (i.e. those infinite sets whose elements have a one-to-one mapping to the natural numbers). However, in dividing a finite unit of space into an infinite number of infinitesimal units, there would naturally need to be an uncountably infinite quantity of such units, to which such an infinite series argument does not apply.)
.

:confused::confused: Like I said, I’m not math oriented.
And Coolduude, I think your counterexample about “counting to infinity” or back again is somewhat off-base, because it implicitly assumes that infinity is a number, which it isn’t. There is no number “infinity,” and thus you cannot count to it (or from it, for that matter).
That’s true, but I think the point that the author of my example (I didn’t write it) was trying to make is this: You can’t be counting to infinity or down from infinity because you’ll be counting forever. As in, the process of counting to or counting down from infinity is impossible because you’ll never complete the action. It’s a complicated thing, but yes infinity isn’t a number. And I do believe the argument still stands.
Edit: Silly me. I almost forgot. Black holes, too. Black holes have positive mass and zero volume. Thus, they have infinite density. There’s an example for you of a physical object in the universe that has infinite something. So an actual infinity does exist, in terms of the density of black holes. That was easy. 🙂
So how does this affect the existence of God?
 
What did he get wrong specifically? And, no offense here, I’ll stick with Craig if or until you prove him wrong.
There are a few things that jumped out at me. One, he said,
There can be no object that possesses infinite density, for if it had any size at all it could still be even more dense.
I just talked about this earlier. Black holes have infinite density. That’s the point of a gravitational singularity–it literally has no size. Its volume is zero. So there we have an example of a physical object in the universe that has an infinite density.

This was another section of his essay that I took issue with:
Though physicists speak of this as particle pair creation and annihilation, such terms are philosophically misleading, for all that actually occurs is conversion of energy into matter or vice versa. As Davies admits, “The processes described here do not represent the creation of matter out of nothing, but the conversion of pre- existing energy into material form.”[32] Hence, Davies greatly misleads his reader when he claims that “Particles . . . can appear out of nowhere without specific causation” and again, “Yet the world of quantum physics routinely produces something for nothing.”[33] On the contrary, the world of quantum physics never produces something for nothing.
However, it is at least within the realm of possibility for quantum physics to create something from nothing. Here’s a quote from Stephen Hawking’s Brief History of Time:
There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty [five] zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.
 
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