Does an actual infinte exist?

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THIS will totally blow your mind:

The best anyone can do to explain the beginning of the space of the universe is to quote “singularity,” which, when you read the definition, sounds like someone made it up despite the mathematical formulae lead to it. Assuming God exists, then he might be laughing at how all the mathematical formulae lead to it. Too many people can’t get past it, won’t get past it, and refuse to see it.

I think some of you are uncomfortable with opening your minds to this enlightened information that the media and some academics have hidden.

Think about how ironic this is: Science answers the questions of WHY by believing there must be some, any, many, one, REASON for something. If there is a reason why, then there can be an answer. Many atheist scientists exist in the world. Yet, ironically, for those who believe there is no God, they “magically” claim THERE IS NO REASON, or “the reason isn’t important” for the beginning and end of time and space! An admission of actual infinity negates the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago and negates the theory of Singularity. If time and space are infinite and have always been infinite, then THERE IS NO REASON for our existence, and a REASON CAN NOT EVER be assigned to answer the basic question: WHY do we exist?

Or, they claim that “we just haven’t learned it yet,” which we know is false, because if time and space had a beginning, then a Supreme Being outside the realms of time and space must be the REASON that time and space had a beginning.
I think there is a weak point in your position. You said “Science answers the questions of WHY.” This is not exactly correct. Science does not ask or answer the basic “why” questions. Science studies the quantitative properties of things and their interactions. But if someone were to ask why there is a universe at all rather than nothing, that is not a question for science.
 
i believe there is a limit to our knowledge. We will never know what is in our vast universe because our lives are too short to make that travel.

interesting way of putting it. Just think about it though, without “us” how do we know about us. Without “us” how would we have known creatures like dinosaurs existed? With our consciousness gathering experiences through our senses, we have the knowledge of existence of the universe. That is without doubt pretty rational.

I guess i could agree with that statement, however i think this non-conscious matter had many influences in the way it evolved over time. Without light to see, sound to hear, things to touch, food to taste, and **** to smell, our consciousness would not have had experiences to reflect on.
We are here and were are rational and conscious. Except for the possibility of rational life existing elsewhere in the universe, humans are in possession of something far greater than what is possessed by any other thing or organism. We can study things as great as quasars and nebulae, but they cannot even know they exist.

Physics, physiology, and the rest of the sciences cannot explain rational thinking and free choice. Those activities are far beyond any capabilities or properties of physical matter and energy. No matter how much we learn about the neuro-physiology of the brain or sub-atomic particles, rationality defies any and all explanation by such means.

Whence comes non-physical rationality into this physical universe?
 
We are here and were are rational and conscious. Except for the possibility of rational life existing elsewhere in the universe, humans are in possession of something far greater than what is possessed by any other thing or organism. We can study things as great as quasars and nebulae, but they cannot even know they exist.

Physics, physiology, and the rest of the sciences cannot explain rational thinking and free choice. Those activities are far beyond any capabilities or properties of physical matter and energy. No matter how much we learn about the neuro-physiology of the brain or sub-atomic particles, rationality defies any and all explanation by such means.

Whence comes non-physical rationality into this physical universe?
I agree humans have a far much more developed conscious than any other organism. Is not our conscious our own experiences through this reality? Our rational thinking is not special, it is reflected by our own personal history. Are people who are blind and deaf rational thinkers? How does someone like Hellen Keller know rationality?

We are all one. We are part of this “infiniteness.” If we know the universe exists, then the universe knows of its existence. It does not matter if it is conscious or unconscious, rational or irrational, because we are part of this universe.

What is free choice? Does our brain not control the chemicals released in our brain, which in return controls our thinking and behaviors? Once again, our rationality is based on influences we grow up it. How do you know something like killing another being is irrational? Is someone hidden inside me telling me right from wrong? Are they telling me what is believable to believe?

Are the atoms that make up everything unconscious? How do they know to be attracted to other atoms. What is that universal force that holds it all together? Could the universe not have “life” in a way?
 
I think there is a weak point in your position. You said “Science answers the questions of WHY.” This is not exactly correct. Science does not ask or answer the basic “why” questions. Science studies the quantitative properties of things and their interactions. But if someone were to ask why there is a universe at all rather than nothing, that is not a question for science.
agreed. People who say science answers the questions of why are mistaking what science actually is. It does not set out to disprove/prove god, or find a meaning to life, it is simply just understanding how we are. The why is the unknowable, because in order to know why, we must view this “infiniteness” from the outside, which we can not do.
 
I agree humans have a far much more developed conscious than any other organism. Is not our conscious our own experiences through this reality? Our rational thinking is not special, it is reflected by our own personal history. Are people who are blind and deaf rational thinkers? How does someone like Hellen Keller know rationality?
I would differ from what you have stated in that I view “rational thinking” as not only special, but more special than we generally realize. By “rational thinking” or “rationality” I mean the specifically human ability to think “conceptually.” This is a radical different order of thinking than “perceptual” thinking, which is characteristic of other animals.

People with sense impairments, i.e. deaf or blind, can still think conceptually. Severe physical, genetic, or psychological disorders can impair one’s ability to think conceptually. But the key to the issue here is understanding the nature of conceptual thinking. More about this below.
We are all one. We are part of this “infiniteness.” If we know the universe exists, then the universe knows of its existence. It does not matter if it is conscious or unconscious, rational or irrational, because we are part of this universe.
I am not sure what you mean by the statement “We are all one.” Certainly, we are all a part of nature in regard to our bodies, which are composed of atoms, like everything else. And all human beings share a common fundamental nature. Yet each human being is unique and individual. No two humans are exactly alike.

To say that the universe knows or has become conscious of itself is to assume that human rationality or conceptual thinking is grounded in the materiality of the universe just as is the human body. But if the human mind is of an ontologically distinct order from the human body and other things in nature, then human knowledge of the universe is not the universe knowing itself, but a power somehow radically distinct and different from the universe.
What is free choice? Does our brain not control the chemicals released in our brain, which in return controls our thinking and behaviors?
The brain and body are necessary for thinking, but it is not the brain that thinks. That is, we don’t think with our brains, but we don’t think without them. The body and brain are a necessary condition for thinking, but not a sufficient condition.

Reason and conceptual thinking is the basis for free choice. Free choice or choosing is a self-causing behavior that is not dependent on antecedent events, physical or psychological. The will can be influenced in its choices but it is not, in its nature, constrained and dependent on the emotions other factors “extraneous” to the will itself.

Choice is a self-causing event. No particular thing in the universe exhibits the ability to be self-causing independently of antecedent conditions. This is another reason to consider the human will as not being a product of the physical universe. If the will was a function or activity of the brain then it could not possibly act freely. It would be constrained to the physical laws of nature.

I have stated nothing more than what you implicitly take to be true and act on, though your argument contradicts how you act. For instance, you believe you are freely exercising your views on CAF. You believe you are free to accept or reject any opinion, and to formulate other views. However, if the will is strictly a function of neuro-physiology, then none of your views are freely constructed and posted. And that is to make nonsense of discussion and debate.
Once again, our rationality is based on influences we grow up it. How do you know something like killing another being is irrational? Is someone hidden inside me telling me right from wrong? Are they telling me what is believable to believe?
Apparently, you have never heard of the natural moral law explanation.
Are the atoms that make up everything unconscious? How do they know to be attracted to other atoms. What is that universal force that holds it all together? Could the universe not have “life” in a way?
There is no reason whatsoever, scientific or philosophic, to attribute consciousness to non-living things. Animals, on the other hand, have limited consciousness. How far back down the scale of complexity of animal organizations we can go and say consciousness exists is impossible to know. But some kind of sense knowledge is a requisite condition for at least minimal consciousness.

Back to the topic of concepts. Concepts are universal and exist in the human mind. For example, the concept to which we attach the word “tree” is a universal. The concept of tree or “treeness” does not apply to just a particular tree but to all things we designate as trees. Now only particular things exist in the physical world. Every physical thing is a “particular” thing. One will never encounter a “universal” tree or any other universal in the physical world. Hence, our concepts, being universals cannot be physical things, or the products of physical processes. Therefore, concepts are non-physical in nature and thus they are not part of nature; they completely transcend nature. And there is no reason to think that the universe is capable of radically transcending itself.
 
agreed. People who say science answers the questions of why are mistaking what science actually is. It does not set out to disprove/prove god, or find a meaning to life, it is simply just understanding how we are. The why is the unknowable, because in order to know why, we must view this “infiniteness” from the outside, which we can not do.
But we can transcend the universe in a philosophic way of knowing and thereby come to know something of those realities that lie beyond the limited scope and competence of the particular sciences.

To use Kantian terms, there is a difference between noumenal and phenomenal reality.
 
I don’t see how divinding a non-zero number by two would be an infinite process. I’m not a math oriented person, but here’s how I understnad it:

take a nonzero number (ex- 64)
divide by two until:
absolute 0 is reached.

It would take a long, long time, but eventually you would hit 0. Why? Because if you keep dividing you won’t stop short of 0, but neither will you overshoot 0 and go negative.

I don’t think it’s a logical concept. It’s abstract though- decimals can go on forever (like Pi).

As far as matter is concerned- that’s a good question that I really don’t know the answer to. In theory you can divide and divide and then divide some more, but in reality I think there comes a point where division is no longer possible.
Assume for contradiction x/2^(n)=0 for some real x≠0 and some integer n. 2^(n)≠0 for all n, so the expression is defined for all n and x. Then x=2^(n)*0=0. By assumption x≠0, a contradiction. QED

Nope, you never hit zero.
 
In any event- I believe we can conceive of the infinite, mathematically and logically but are you going to find an actual infinity in our universe? I believe not.
 
But we can transcend the universe in a philosophic way of knowing and thereby come to know something of those realities that lie beyond the limited scope and competence of the particular sciences.

To use Kantian terms, there is a difference between noumenal and phenomenal reality.
Okay, so i have been pondering over a question for some time now and i am going to ask you because your answers are awesome 👍

Does language describe our reality, or is our reality shaped by the language we employ???
 
Okay, so i have been pondering over a question for some time now and i am going to ask you because your answers are awesome 👍

Does language describe our reality, or is our reality shaped by the language we employ???
Much can be said in response to your questions, but I will try a brief response that indicates the lines along which the matter ought to be understood.

All knowledge begins with sense experience. The senses provide the data (particular perceptions) from which the intellect forms the universal concept by a process of abstracting from the particular notes contained in the sensory information.

The intellect knows things “by means” of the concepts that it has engendered. To those concepts in the mind we attach words, which are arbitrary inventions of sounds and symbols (spoken and written words, and pictographs). For example, in English we call or name a certain kind of reflective object a “mirror”. The concept of “mirror”, which exists in the mind of the knowing subject, has a universal designation and refers to all things classified as mirrors regardless of their individual differences such as shape, size, thickness, etc.

We have knowledge of any “particular” mirror existing in the external world by perceiving it with any of the senses. So, by means of the universal concept we understand “what” a mirror is, and by means of sense perception we perceive the particular mirror.

Now, the crux of the matter for your first question is that with language use we attach a meaning to the word “mirror”; the concept is that meaning. Hence, we can accurately describe the world using language. One way to illustrate this is to consider the fact that despite the existence of numerous languages, people can still understand each other. For instance, in Spanish a mirror is called “espejo”. With the proper effort an English speaker and a Spanish speaker can know that they are intending the same thing when speaking, and so there is a meeting of the minds, and communication takes place.

Understanding reality or the external world is not limited or confined to the language that one knows. Oftentimes, people will conceive ideas for which there seems to be no appropriate words in the language to use and associate with those ideas. Hence, language is always changing, and poets often manipulate a language to its very limit in order to express some new insight or intentionalized emotion.

Is our reality shaped by the language we employ? In certain ways our “judgments” about things are shaped by language. This is obvious in cases involving the misuse of language. Language is often used to manipulate a population’s judgments. German Nazi Party member Joseph Goebbels, Adolf Hitler’s propaganda minister, was a master at misusing language to manipulate others. Consider also the novel “1984” and Orwellian double-speak – “War is Peace”, etc. Furthermore, consider our own politicians and their speeches…There is nothing new under the sun.

To tie all of this in with the thread topic about the infinite, I would say the ability of politicians to manipulate people’s judgments about reality is infinitely easy.
 
I did not question your belief God. I have no doubt that you believe in God. Perhaps we were not understanding each other at some points.

Scientists often use the word “infinite” to describe something. However, their use of language, like everyone else, can be ambiguous. The English “infinite” comes from the Latin “infinitus”, boundless. The English “infinite” is used a either an adjective or a noun, and has various meanings, such as are given in this dictionary definition:

–adjective1. immeasurably great: an infinite capacity for forgiveness.
2. indefinitely or exceedingly great: infinite sums of money.
3. unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.: the infinite nature of outer space.
4. unbounded or unlimited; boundless; endless: God’s infinite mercy.
5. Mathematics. a. not finite.
b. (of a set) having elements that can be put into one-to-one correspondence with a subset that is not the given set.

–noun6. something that is infinite.
7. Mathematics. an infinite quantity or magnitude.
8. the boundless regions of space.
9. the Infinite (Being), God.

Now, when someone says the universe was generated from an infinitely dense mass, perhaps the size of an atom, I do not take the use of “infinite” here to be a literal and actual limitless quantity, regardless of how the speaker intended it.

It seems to me that the infinitely dense mass can only be a mass that has a density far, far beyond what we are capable of conceiving. Asserting an actual infinite density may involve a limitation needing to be imposed on how far we should apply a mathematical analysis to the situation. Numbers are potentially infinite, but matter cannot in any of its properties be an actual infinite, whether it be in extension, density, weight, and so on.
Oh. I was referring to infinity of time and space as in your #8. I’m mostly attempting to see it through the eyes of an atheist since “God created it” is easier to conceptualize.

Regarding the possiblity of an infinitely dense mass with zero volume, as is the theory of Singularity, it makes no sense to me that some atheist scientists claim that the mass of the universe is finite, yet they claim it came from an “infinitely” dense mass. This seems to be another paradox. If you are referring to the law of conservation of matter and claiming that there is a finite amount of matter in the universe, then I assume the label “infinitely dense” is attached to mean “Very dense, beyond our ability to comprehend or measure,” but, just as there are really a finite amount of grains of sand on the earth, we have no realistic chance to know exactly how many. But the number of grains of sand is finite, not infinite. Yes er No?
 
I think there is a weak point in your position. You said “Science answers the questions of WHY.” This is not exactly correct. Science does not ask or answer the basic “why” questions. Science studies the quantitative properties of things and their interactions. But if someone were to ask why there is a universe at all rather than nothing, that is not a question for science.
For the atheist scientist who does not believe in God, then who or what will answer the question of why there is a universe or why we exist? I suppose you’ll say that for them, there is no answer, to which I’ll agree, but I don’t mean to speak for you.
 
First, I have a couple questions about terms. How is “actual” understood here? Do we mean “in act” by it? And are we limiting this to an infinite material being which is “in act”? If that is what is meant, then it seems a contradiction in terms, because every existing material being is limited by being a particular thing. In other words, any actual material being you could point out could not be infinite because it would be designated as “this thing.”
However, it might be true to call something infinite in a certain respect. For example, (and please take this premise up for the sake of argument) taking up that angels are immaterial (read: lacking matter), then they would be infinite in respect to matter, because they are not finite in a material way (not bounded by matter). However, even they would not be infinite in act simply speaking, because they depend upon God for their existence, which means while they may be infinite in regards to matter, they are finite in regards to being, since each angel’s existence is restricted to being the existence of this particular angel.
It seems then, while things may be infinite in act in a qualified sense, to be simply infinite would be contrary to what we mean by something which is made.
However, if we reduce it back to the notion of an Uncaused First Cause, or an Unmoved First Mover, as St. Thomas Aquinas does (and as has been referenced previously on this thread), then we can say there is an “infinite in act” and that is God.
I recommend St. Thomas Aquinas’s Summa Theologiae I.Q2, Q4, Q7 all articles for a much more elaborate and better argued response than the one I have just given.
God Bless.
 
First, I have a couple questions about terms. How is “actual” understood here? Do we mean “in act” by it? And are we limiting this to an infinite material being which is “in act”? If that is what is meant, then it seems a contradiction in terms, because every existing material being is limited by being a particular thing. In other words, any actual material being you could point out could not be infinite because it would be designated as “this thing.”
However, it might be true to call something infinite in a certain respect. For example, (and please take this premise up for the sake of argument) taking up that angels are immaterial (read: lacking matter), then they would be infinite in respect to matter, because they are not finite in a material way (not bounded by matter). However, even they would not be infinite in act simply speaking, because they depend upon God for their existence, which means while they may be infinite in regards to matter, they are finite in regards to being, since each angel’s existence is restricted to being the existence of this particular angel.
It seems then, while things may be infinite in act in a qualified sense, to be simply infinite would be contrary to what we mean by something which is made.
However, if we reduce it back to the notion of an Uncaused First Cause, or an Unmoved First Mover, as St. Thomas Aquinas does (and as has been referenced previously on this thread), then we can say there is an “infinite in act” and that is God.
I recommend St. Thomas Aquinas’s Summa Theologiae I.Q2, Q4, Q7 all articles for a much more elaborate and better argued response than the one I have just given.
God Bless.
Hello creation of God. I liked your post. God bless.
 
For the atheist scientist who does not believe in God, then who or what will answer the question of why there is a universe or why we exist? I suppose you’ll say that for them, there is no answer, to which I’ll agree, but I don’t mean to speak for you.
For the most part, what I have heard from atheists is that the universe just is. But that is a non answer. So, you are right. For the atheist, there is no answer.

Many atheists’ have a substitute for faith in God – it is an act of faith in the becoming of an infinite universe.This is a full blown act of faith, but one that is inverted.

However, Heinrich Wilhelm Matthäus Olbers had a good argument against an infinite universe. It is called Olber’s Paradox.
 
Oh. I was referring to infinity of time and space as in your #8. I’m mostly attempting to see it through the eyes of an atheist since “God created it” is easier to conceptualize.

Regarding the possiblity of an infinitely dense mass with zero volume, as is the theory of Singularity, it makes no sense to me that some atheist scientists claim that the mass of the universe is finite, yet they claim it came from an “infinitely” dense mass. This seems to be another paradox. If you are referring to the law of conservation of matter and claiming that there is a finite amount of matter in the universe, then I assume the label “infinitely dense” is attached to mean “Very dense, beyond our ability to comprehend or measure,” but, just as there are really a finite amount of grains of sand on the earth, we have no realistic chance to know exactly how many. But the number of grains of sand is finite, not infinite. Yes er No?
I think I answered that. It seems that matter can only be infinitely dense in the sense of “Very dense, beyond our ability to comprehend or measure”. If anyone claims the primal infinitely dense mass is infinte in the sense of an “actual infinite”, their assertion involves a contradiction.
 
For the most part, what I have heard from atheists is that the universe just is. But that is a non answer. So, you are right. For the atheist, there is no answer.
I agree, but that’s what I find hypocritical about some atheists who claim to only believe in that which can be proven. Infinity of time and space can’t be proven. How can anyone believe that atheism is superior to religion when they, too, believe in that which cannot be proven?
 
For the most part, what I have heard from atheists is that the universe just is. But that is a non answer. So, you are right. For the atheist, there is no answer.
The intellectually responsible answer is that we don’t know and may never know.
However, Heinrich Wilhelm Matthäus Olbers had a good argument against an infinite universe. It is called Olber’s Paradox.
Olber was obviously blissfully unaware of the Doppler Fitzhu effect vis a vis Universal expansion.
 
The intellectually responsible answer is that we don’t know and may never know.
That answer “sounds” better, but it is implies the agnostic attitude, which says I don’t know, therefore you don’t know, either.
Olber was obviously blissfully unaware of the Doppler Fitzhu effect vis a vis Universal expansion.
If you would like to present a solution to Olber’s Paradox, you are most welcome.
 
I agree, but that’s what I find hypocritical about some atheists who claim to only believe in that which can be proven. Infinity of time and space can’t be proven. How can anyone believe that atheism is superior to religion when they, too, believe in that which cannot be proven?
Atheism is philosophically inferior to true theistic religious belief because, just to mention one reason, the existence of a supreme being, or God, is philosophically demonstrable, while the non-existence of God is in no way provable.

The atheistic tact for denying the legitimacy of philosophical demonstrations for the existence of God is to arbitrarily limit human reason to phenomenal reality and the scientific method. However, there is no philosophical justification for limiting human knowledge to the emperiological realm.

The contradiction involved in atheism’s criticism of religious faith is that atheism itself is a form of religious faith. “Absolute atheism starts in an act of faith in reverse gear and is a full-blown religious commitment. Here we have the first internal inconsistency of contemporary atheism: it proclaims that all religiouns must necessarily vanish away, and it is itself a religious phenomenon.” (Jacques Maritain, The Range of Reason)
 
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