Does an Israelite need Roman Catholicism in order to become saved?

[Thorwald]

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God, that came by way of the Israelites. The scriptures tell us, that first the gentiles will be saved, and then the jews/Israelites (grafting back in). Is R.C. not a gentile religion/faith? Would God require the gentiles to teach the Israelites (the anointed children of God), in order for them to become saved?

 

[ralphinal]

One of the main issues with your supposition is how Christianity got to Rome. The Carholic faith was NOT a faith of gentiles at first. It was a faith based in Judaism. Granted, non-Jewish converts were quickly the norm, but it does not change the fact that Christianity is from Judaism.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God, that came by way of the Israelites. The scriptures tell us, that first the gentiles will be saved, and then the jews/Israelites (grafting back in). Is R.C. not a gentile religion/faith? Would God require the gentiles to teach the Israelites (the anointed children of God), in order for them to become saved?

The Bible is clear that Salvation through Jesus Christ is offered first to the Jews and then the Gentiles. To say that Jews should not convert to the Catholic Church Jesus Christ established is to ignore the Bible.

To those who have not yet received the Gospel under the section of “The Church and Non-Christians” you can read the CCC paragraphs 839-840 for details on how the Catholic Church views Non-Catholic Jews.

There are plenty of Jewish Converts to the Catholic Church - all of the Apostles, Mary, most of the Christians mentioned in the New Testament, more recently Edith Stein, Rosaline Moss and David … I forget his last name now, he wrote a beautiful booklet on the Rosary from a Jewish persective that I read years and years ago. Just the other evening driving home I listened to Immaculate Heart Radio and listened to a Jewish gentleman who is a convert to the Catholic Church as he gave an excellent Bible Study - saying that the greatest Jewish Prayer begins with the word “Hear”, not “talk”, not “do”. I think the Prayer was “Hear, O Israel, that God is One” or something like that. It was a great study on Martha and Mary where one sister was busy “doing” while the other sat at Jesus feet and “Listened”.

For those Jews who have not heard the Gospel, then their possibility of salvation is between them and God as described in the CCC paragraphs 846-848. For anyone, especially the Jews, who have heard the Gospel have the responsibility above the Gentiles to accept Christ and become Catholic since Jesus came for the Jews first, then the Gentiles as the Gospels and the New Testament says.

 

[geometer]

Jesus said that gentiles are to be treated like tax collectors. He was very pragmatic toward non-jews. He said not to take the gospel to the gentiles. Gentile does not mean only non-jew it means non-believer the word goy means someone of another nation.

He said salvation is from the jews. He said he had not come to abolish the law, but to perform it. He said he who relaxes the least of the commandments and teaches other to do the same will be least in the kingdom of heaven. He told the disciples that if they had questions about what they should do to go directly to the Rabbis and be advised by them, And, they followed his advice and were advised by Rabbis, until there were so many gentiles among them that the Rabbis said they could no longer advise them.

Jesus actually taught the disciples to perform miracles and they did perform miracles. Jesus said those who believe him will do the miracles that he did and greater miracles than he did.

How jewish are you? Are there any miracles that you are responsible for? Obviously followers of Jesus are very rare birds indeed…

 

[Thorwald]

The Bible is clear that Salvation through Jesus Christ is offered first to the Jews and then the Gentiles. To say that Jews should not convert to the Catholic Church Jesus Christ established is to ignore the Bible.

To those who have not yet received the Gospel under the section of “The Church and Non-Christians” you can read the CCC paragraphs 839-840 for details on how the Catholic Church views Non-Catholic Jews.

There are plenty of Jewish Converts to the Catholic Church - all of the Apostles, Mary, most of the Christians mentioned in the New Testament, more recently Edith Stein, Rosaline Moss and David … I forget his last name now, he wrote a beautiful booklet on the Rosary from a Jewish persective that I read years and years ago. Just the other evening driving home I listened to Immaculate Heart Radio and listened to a Jewish gentleman who is a convert to the Catholic Church as he gave an excellent Bible Study - saying that the greatest Jewish Prayer begins with the word “Hear”, not “talk”, not “do”. I think the Prayer was “Hear, O Israel, that God is One” or something like that. It was a great study on Martha and Mary where one sister was busy “doing” while the other sat at Jesus feet and “Listened”.

For those Jews who have not heard the Gospel, then their possibility of salvation is between them and God as described in the CCC paragraphs 846-848. For anyone, especially the Jews, who have heard the Gospel have the responsibility above the Gentiles to accept Christ and become Catholic since Jesus came for the Jews first, then the Gentiles as the Gospels and the New Testament says.

I think you better read your Bible again.

 

[Thorwald]

One of the main issues with your supposition is how Christianity got to Rome. The Carholic faith was NOT a faith of gentiles at first. It was a faith based in Judaism. Granted, non-Jewish converts were quickly the norm, but it does not change the fact that Christianity is from Judaism.

We all know where Christianity comes from, but it was first taught by the apostles, to the gentiles (per the scripture). It is also written, that the jews will also be taught, later (ie. they will not be forgotten). My original question still remains.

 

[Thorwald]

Jesus said that gentiles are to be treated like tax collectors. He was very pragmatic toward non-jews. He said not to take the gospel to the gentiles. Gentile does not mean only non-jew it means non-believer the word goy means someone of another nation.

He said salvation is from the jews. He said he had not come to abolish the law, but to perform it. He said he who relaxes the least of the commandments and teaches other to do the same will be least in the kingdom of heaven. He told the disciples that if they had questions about what they should do to go directly to the Rabbis and be advised by them, And, they followed his advice and were advised by Rabbis, until there were so many gentiles among them that the Rabbis said they could no longer advise them.

Jesus actually taught the disciples to perform miracles and they did perform miracles. Jesus said those who believe him will do the miracles that he did and greater miracles than he did.

How jewish are you? Are there any miracles that you are responsible for? Obviously followers of Jesus are very rare birds indeed…

I think you should read your Bible again.

 

[geometer]

I think you should read your Bible again.

Everything that I wrote came from the bible that I read. Are you drawing a blank on the things that Jesus actually said? Can you quote what you know?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I think you better read your Bible again.

You mean re-read the many passages which say that Jesus came to save first the Jews and then the Gentiles (or Greeks depending on your translation) like:

Acts 26:23 - Jesus proclaimed Light to the Jews and then to the Gentiles
Romans 1:16 - Jesus’ Gospel of salvation first for the Jews and then the Gentiles
Romans 2:9 - first the Jews then the Gentiles (this time about those who will suffer because of the evil they do)
Romans 2:10 - glory, honor and peace to those who do good works first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles

I would continue, but the point has been made that in the Bible, the Jews always come first and then the Gentile in matters of Salvation, and for damnation for that matter.

 

[Thorwald]

Everything that I wrote came from the bible that I read. Are you drawing a blank on the things that Jesus actually said? Can you quote what you know?

Paul mentioned, that the jews were hard-headed, not accepting the truth for salvation. He stated that he had faith, that they would eventually become believers and be saved. This is the point that I was trying to bring across.

 

[ralphinal]

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God, that came by way of the Israelites. The scriptures tell us, that first the gentiles will be saved, and then the jews/Israelites (grafting back in). Is R.C. not a gentile religion/faith? Would God require the gentiles to teach the Israelites (the anointed children of God), in order for them to become saved?

We all know where Christianity comes from, but it was first taught by the apostles, to the gentiles (per the scripture). It is also written, that the jews will also be taught, later (ie. they will not be forgotten). My original question still remains.

No, it does not. The Catholic Faith IS the full form of Judaism. It is not for Gentiles. It is the fulfillment of the faith system as handed to us by the Fulfillment of the Law found in Jesus Christ.

 

[Thorwald]

No, it does not. The Catholic Faith IS the full form of Judaism. It is not for Gentiles. It is the fulfillment of the faith system as handed to us by the Fulfillment of the Law found in Jesus Christ.

The majority of jews rejected the teachings of the apostles (even unto this day). Many gentiles were becoming saved (many of the N/T books/letters are teachings to non-jews). Paul stated that he knew that God would not let His chosen people fall to the wayside, but rather, Paul had faith that eventually the truth for salvation would be accepted by God’s chosen people also (perhaps the fulfillment of the prophecy ‘all Israel shall be saved’?).

 

[geometer]

No, it does not. The Catholic Faith IS the full form of Judaism. It is not for Gentiles. It is the fulfillment of the faith system as handed to us by the Fulfillment of the Law found in Jesus Christ.

The word mistranslated as fulfill in all bibles is a greek word which in the context of the passage should be translated as perform. Perform is the traditional use in that context.

It is very clear from everything he said in that context that he was saying that he would perform all of the commandments which are performances. These are sometimes called good deeds. But, it would be understood by all that he was making a boast, because no one is expected to do all of the good deeds of the law, since there are good deeds for people who raise cattle, and other deeds for priests, some for women etc…

He was saying he would perform all of the law as an affirmation of the law, that he like all jews would still be living in observance of Torah. Nothing had changed. And, he goes on to say that no one is to relax even the least of the commandments, or teach others to relax them. He said he who relaxes even the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be least in the Kingdom.

Guess who did just that? Paul did, and said of himself that he is least in the kingdom of heaven, and will be found standing on the edge of the darkness…

All, christians will be with Paul, on the edge of the darkness.

The scriptures are prophetic you know…

 

[Thorwald]

No, it does not. The Catholic Faith IS the full form of Judaism. It is not for Gentiles. It is the fulfillment of the faith system as handed to us by the Fulfillment of the Law found in Jesus Christ.

I forgot to respond to the rest of your posting. **YOU **believe that the ‘whole spectrum’ of the Catholic faith, is the full [proper] form. I don’t. I believe it contains many ‘add-ons’ (beads, etc.) that are not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures.

We often forget the story of the death of Aaron’s two sons, because they also ‘added’ incense to an offering. The reason for this, was because God had not commanded them to do this. I see no difference to their ‘add-ons’ and yours.

 

[sambos671]

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God, that came by way of the Israelites. The scriptures tell us, that first the gentiles will be saved, and then the jews/Israelites (grafting back in). Is R.C. not a gentile religion/faith? Would God require the gentiles to teach the Israelites (the anointed children of God), in order for them to become saved?

Only if you if you can flawlessly follow the Torah your entire life with out one error or misjudgement. Christians believe that the Torah only shows us our sin and our inability to follow it completely or to please God. The Law brings death because by it we’re condemned. That’s basically the Christian view.

 

[geometer]

Paul mentioned, that the jews were hard-headed, not accepting the truth for salvation. He stated that he had faith, that they would eventually become believers and be saved. This is the point that I was trying to bring across.

To say that jews are stiffnecked is a well accepted turn of phrase because Moses was the first to say it in the Torah. You won’t teach jews anything new about jews from the new testament, they were all jews who wrote it.

The scriptures say that he who is born of God has overcome the world, and Paul said of himself that he had not overcome.

The greatest thing that Paul ever wrote was his lament about his loveless life. 1 Corinthians 13. The number value of the word love in Hebrew is 13.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God, that came by way of the Israelites. The scriptures tell us, that first the gentiles will be saved, and then the jews/Israelites (grafting back in). Is R.C. not a gentile religion/faith? Would God require the gentiles to teach the Israelites (the anointed children of God), in order for them to become saved?

The Church was originally based in Jerusalem.

The leaders of the Church spread the gospel of Christ.

The Church is the tool chosen by Jesus to preserve and proclaim his truth.

Without the Church, you wouldn’t know the gospel.

 

[Thorwald]

Only if you if you can flawlessly follow the Torah your entire life with out one error or misjudgement. Christians believe that the Torah only shows us our sin and our inability to follow it completely or to please God. The Law brings death because by it we’re condemned. That’s basically the Christian view.

I think I understand what you are trying to say. My question still remains. Has God anointed the R.C. Church above His anointed children?

 

[ralphinal]

The word mistranslated as fulfill in all bibles is a greek word which in the context of the passage should be translated as perform. Perform is the traditional use in that context.

It is very clear from everything he said in that context that he was saying that he would perform all of the commandments which are performances. These are sometimes called good deeds. But, it would be understood by all that he was making a boast, because no one is expected to do all of the good deeds of the law, since there are good deeds for people who raise cattle, and other deeds for priests, some for women etc…

He was saying he would perform all of the law as an affirmation of the law, that he like all jews would still be living in observance of Torah. Nothing had changed. And, he goes on to say that no one is to relax even the least of the commandments, or teach others to relax them. He said he who relaxes even the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be least in the Kingdom.

Guess who did just that? Paul did, and said of himself that he is least in the kingdom of heaven, and will be found standing on the edge of the darkness…

All, christians will be with Paul, on the edge of the darkness.

The scriptures are prophetic you know…

Wow. So, you ignore the fact that Jesus told Peter, using rabinical languauge that he had the authority to bind and loose? That means that Peter, in his role as head of the faith, could say what was and was not part of the faith.

Further, I suggest that you read Acts to see who it was that allowed Gentile converts to not follow the laws of Moses. It was not Paul.

If Christians are damned for following the teachings of the Apostles, there is NO HOPE for anyone at all.

 

[ralphinal]

I forgot to respond to the rest of your posting. **YOU **believe that the ‘whole spectrum’ of the Catholic faith, is the full [proper] form. I don’t. I believe it contains many ‘add-ons’ (beads, etc.) that are not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures.

Many non-Catholics leave out things that ARE in the Scriptures. Which is worse?

We often forget the story of the death of Aaron’s two sons, because they also ‘added’ incense to an offering. The reason for this, was because God had not commanded them to do this. I see no difference to their ‘add-ons’ and yours.

I do. First, you can be a good, practicing Catholic without ever praying a rosary. Or praying to a saint outside of Mass.

Jesus gave Peter authority. At no point did he take it away. The Church can say what is and is not dogma. Catholics do not use a Cliff Notes Bible.