Does an Israelite need Roman Catholicism in order to become saved?

[sambos671]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. My question still remains. Has God anointed the R.C. Church above His anointed children?

The question doesn’t make sense because Christianity is the annointed children because whether Jew or Gentile we are inserted into the family relationship with God via Jesus. So modern Christians are the decendents of Abraham not genetically but by faith. Judaism of the OT came to a end at the resurection of Christ. And came to a physical end when the temple was destroyed in AD 70. The Jews of today only share a genetic relation with Abraham but do not have the faith in the same God because they rejected that very God in the person of Jesus.
Now if you’re trying to distinguish the Catholic Church from the rest of Christianity that is a different question. The Catholic Church is the Christian Church established Jesus and spread through the apostles. If you read all the documents of the NT and all the writings of all the teachings of the church you see a consistancy of teaching throughout the ages. Which is reflective of the foundation of teaching through Jesus Christ.

 

[Snerticus]

Paul mentioned, that the jews were hard-headed, not accepting the truth for salvation. He stated that he had faith, that they would eventually become believers and be saved. This is the point that I was trying to bring across.

Paul was known as the apostle of the Gentiles. This special charism came from God. The same cannot be said of the other apostles; although some gentiles certainly followed other apostles.

What did Jesus say to the Canaanite woman… “I have come for the lost sheep of Israel” he also said (though not in the same passage) “And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and I must lead these too. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, one shepherd.” Suggesting that first are of His fold of the Israelites, and after this comes the gentiles, which are the ones not of His fold; and the two will be one.

Christ came to save the world, starting with the Jews. This is why the Israelites were (and are) His chosen people. Jesus was a Jew - the Messiah - who fulfilled the prophesies of old. His apostles, who were Jewish also, eventually became known as Christians because they followed “The Way” of Jesus.

 

[Snerticus]

Originally Posted by Thorwald forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/viewpost.gif
Paul mentioned, that the jews were hard-headed, not accepting the truth for salvation. He stated that he had faith, that they would eventually become believers and be saved.

Also, Paul knew this to be true only becuase he himself was one of the “hard headed” Jews of which he mentions. He had first hand knowledge of this because he was vehemently against the new “Christians” and did not accept the truth or salvation himself initially.

 

[geometer]

If Christians are damned for following the teachings of the Apostles, there is NO HOPE for anyone at all.

Well, why didn’t they remain observant jews? Jesus told them to strictly observe the Torah. They developed another religion, and Jesus had no part in it. Jesus lived his whole life as a jew. He was so jewish that thousands in his own time believed that he was the true messiah, you can’t get more jewish than that.

You believe in replacement theology. You believe that you can replace the jewish and inherit the promises God made solely to them. It is a genocidal idea really. The term christ has no meaning beyond the throne of David. Christ is promised to Israel alone.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. My question still remains. Has God anointed the R.C. Church above His anointed children?

Israel was annointed only because of the fact that God Himself, Jesus, would be born of that nation.

Once God was born as a Jew, He fulfilled every letter of Jewish Law because He came to fulfill it and He established His Church on St. Peter, also a Jew.

The New Testament is clear that He came to save first the Jews, then the Gentiles which if you’ve read the New Testament, you’d see that it is exactly what happened: First there were Jewish Converts, then Samarian, then Gentiles (Roman and Greek).

Remember when Jesus died on the cross, the Jewish Temple curtain was tore in two by God - from Top to Bottom. God accepted the One True Sacrifice, His Son and NO Longer accepted the Jewish sacrifices on behalf of their sins in the Jewish Temple because the Only Sacrifice God accepts now is that of His Only Son - only those of us Catholics (and Orthodox) who celebrate the Most Holy Eucharist and eat of that Sacrifice, namely the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, participate in the One True Sacrifice.

God allowed the Temple to be destroyed by the Romans shortly after Christ’s Assension into Heaven. God has never allowed that Temple to be rebuilt because God has no use for any more for a Jewish Temple because after Christ’s death and resurrection the Jews of that time either accepted God and His Messiah or they completely rejected God. Those who accepted God became the first Christians - His Annointed, those who rejected God continued using the name Jewish for themselves yet completely Stopped sacrificing to God for their sins and they even after the destruction of their Temple by the Romans, through out books of their Sacred Scriptures - 7 entire books: Judith, Tobit, etc. and parts of Esther and Daniel. The decendents of those Jews who rejected God and His Church immediately after Christ’s death and resurrection and assension can, and some have, accept Christ and become Catholic for their own salvation even though their ancestors rejected it. Edith Stein is a great Catholic Saint who Convert from the Jewish Faith - whose ancestors rejected Christ.

Those who are Jewish in religion today have a far different religion than the Jews of that Jesus’ time and before Christ because the Jews of today make NO sacrifices for their sins - it has been unreasonably argued…“but they have no Temple” - O Boo Hoo! Just reading a little bit of the first 5 books of the Old Testament blow that pitiful argument out of the water since for Centuries, there was NO Temple and yet Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. made plenty of sacrifices to God!!!

The Jews of today, who hear the Gospel MUST, just like every Gentile, embrace the Catholic Church and enter Her whole heartedly so that their sins CAN be forgiven them and so that they can fulfill their Jewish Faith by receiving the Sacraments, especially the Most Holy Eucharist.

My suggestion to you is: Read the New Testament and get familiar with it. It’s all in there. Ignorance of the Bible is Ignorance of Christ.

 

[sambos671]

Well, why didn’t they remain observant jews? Jesus told them to strictly observe the Torah. They developed another religion, and Jesus had no part in it. Jesus lived his whole life as a jew. He was so jewish that thousands in his own time believed that he was the true messiah, you can’t get more jewish than that.

You believe in replacement theology. You believe that you can replace the jewish and inherit the promises God made solely to them. It is a genocidal idea really. The term christ has no meaning beyond the throne of David. Christ is promised to Israel alone.

The problem of Jesus’ day was that Judaism (according to the Hillel school of thought) was attempting to put a hedge of protection around the Law which in itself caused people to break the Law such as not taking care of their elderly parents in favor of an addition to the Law. Jesus summed up the Law into two commands:

Love the lord your God and to love you neighbor as yourself. The heart of the law was at issue. The Apostles believed the entire law was fulfilled in Jesus for mankind enabling them to be able to follow it by Jesus’ summation. Jesus inherits the throne of David eternally just as God promised. Or are you calling God a liar? Because their hasn’t been a decendent of David on the throne since before the Babylonian captivity. The Throne being that of Zion or eternal rather than temporal. As believers (of like faith as Abraham) gentiles and Jews alike are inserted in the relationship that Jesus had with God that of son or child.

 

[Thorwald]

Israel was annointed only because of the fact that God Himself, Jesus, would be born of that nation.

Once God was born as a Jew, He fulfilled every letter of Jewish Law because He came to fulfill it and He established His Church on St. Peter, also a Jew.

The New Testament is clear that He came to save first the Jews, then the Gentiles which if you’ve read the New Testament, you’d see that it is exactly what happened: First there were Jewish Converts, then Samarian, then Gentiles (Roman and Greek).

Remember when Jesus died on the cross, the Jewish Temple curtain was tore in two by God - from Top to Bottom. God accepted the One True Sacrifice, His Son and NO Longer accepted the Jewish sacrifices on behalf of their sins in the Jewish Temple because the Only Sacrifice God accepts now is that of His Only Son - only those of us Catholics (and Orthodox) who celebrate the Most Holy Eucharist and eat of that Sacrifice, namely the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, participate in the One True Sacrifice.

God allowed the Temple to be destroyed by the Romans shortly after Christ’s Assension into Heaven. God has never allowed that Temple to be rebuilt because God has no use for any more for a Jewish Temple because after Christ’s death and resurrection the Jews of that time either accepted God and His Messiah or they completely rejected God. Those who accepted God became the first Christians - His Annointed, those who rejected God continued using the name Jewish for themselves yet completely Stopped sacrificing to God for their sins and they even after the destruction of their Temple by the Romans, through out books of their Sacred Scriptures - 7 entire books: Judith, Tobit, etc. and parts of Esther and Daniel. The decendents of those Jews who rejected God and His Church immediately after Christ’s death and resurrection and assension can, and some have, accept Christ and become Catholic for their own salvation even though their ancestors rejected it. Edith Stein is a great Catholic Saint who Convert from the Jewish Faith - whose ancestors rejected Christ.

Those who are Jewish in religion today have a far different religion than the Jews of that Jesus’ time and before Christ because the Jews of today make NO sacrifices for their sins - it has been unreasonably argued…“but they have no Temple” - O Boo Hoo! Just reading a little bit of the first 5 books of the Old Testament blow that pitiful argument out of the water since for Centuries, there was NO Temple and yet Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. made plenty of sacrifices to God!!!

The Jews of today, who hear the Gospel MUST, just like every Gentile, embrace the Catholic Church and enter Her whole heartedly so that their sins CAN be forgiven them and so that they can fulfill their Jewish Faith by receiving the Sacraments, especially the Most Holy Eucharist.

My suggestion to you is: Read the New Testament and get familiar with it. It’s all in there. Ignorance of the Bible is Ignorance of Christ.

You are missing the whole point. There were and are, 12 tribes of Israel. Jews are mainly from the tribe of Judah (King David’s line). Were all 12 tribes included in the first churches? Christ states that ‘All Israel shall be saved’. Somewhere along the line, God began ‘grafting’ His chosen people back in. The big question is, did He do this through Catholicism, or Protestantism?

 

[ralphinal]

You are missing the whole point. There were and are, 12 tribes of Israel. Jews are mainly from the tribe of Judah (King David’s line). Were all 12 tribes included in the first churches? Christ states that ‘All Israel shall be saved’. Somewhere along the line, God began ‘grafting’ His chosen people back in. The big question is, did He do this through Catholicism, or Protestantism?

Where are the Tribes today? Where were they when Jesus walked the earth?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

You are missing the whole point. There were and are, 12 tribes of Israel. Jews are mainly from the tribe of Judah (King David’s line). Were all 12 tribes included in the first churches? Christ states that ‘All Israel shall be saved’. Somewhere along the line, God began ‘grafting’ His chosen people back in. The big question is, did He do this through Catholicism, or Protestantism?

The answer is, yes Jesus came to save all 12 tribes of Israel as well as the entire human race; however, the entire Jewish race, just like the entire human race, is not interested in being saved. Not everyone turns to the God who loves them, that is a fact. That is why Jesus tells us over and over again that the we need to go the Narrow Path to salvation and not the Wide Path to hell.

Those Jews who were interested in God’s Salvation Plan at the time of Christ, and immediately after, became Catholics under St. Peter the one Christ left in charge of His Church. Certainly there were members of all 12 Tribes who joined the Catholic Church back then. Through out the centuries and even today, there are still Jews, upon hearing the Gospel, converting to the Catholic Church. Although, I’m not sure they’d know which of the 12 Tribes their ancestors belonged to? Ask Rosline Moss if she knows which Tribe her family belonged to.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Where are the Tribes today? Where were they when Jesus walked the earth?

DNA evidence and cultural/religious evidence has linked an small group of African people in Southern Africa to one of the Jewish Tribes. On the outside, they look black African but the DNA proves they have primarily Jewish heritage. They also have an oral history of their people coming from the Middle East and traveling all over and eventually settling there in Southern African. Their language is a mix of the Hebrew language and a native African language. History Channel.

 

[ralphinal]

DNA evidence and cultural/religious evidence has linked an small group of African people in Southern Africa to one of the Jewish Tribes. On the outside, they look black African but the DNA proves they have primarily Jewish heritage. They also have an oral history of their people coming from the Middle East and traveling all over and eventually settling there in Southern African. Their language is a mix of the Hebrew language and a native African language. History Channel.

Possible, but where are they now? They are not practicing Jews.

That is what happened to the lost tribes. They moved or were taken from the land and they intermarried into other cultures, losing their Jewish connection

 

[geometer]

Jesus summed up the Law into two commands:

Love the lord your God and to love you neighbor as yourself. The heart of the law was at issue. The Apostles believed the entire law was fulfilled in Jesus for mankind enabling them to be able to follow it by Jesus’ summation. Jesus inherits the throne of David eternally just as God promised. Or are you calling God a liar?

Jesus had quoted the shemma from Deuteronomy 6. That has always been the centerpiece of the law of Moses. The shemma is not new law. And, the other commandment he took from Leviticus 19:18. From the time of Jesus to this very day Rabbis have commented on the love of neighbor, that commandment does not abolish the law.

You have used the word fulfill as to mean abolish. That greek word actually means perform in the context of Jesus words, that the Torah is to be strictly observed.

I don’t follow your point about Jesus on the throne of David. Jesus was never annointed King of Israel. Annointing is an actual part of the cerimonial initiation of Israeli kings. After being annointed all kings of Israel recieved the title messiah. To say that someone is messiah who has not been annointed is a euphemism. It may be a great compliment but it does not mean that the person actually is king.

 

[Thorwald]

Many non-Catholics leave out things that ARE in the Scriptures. Which is worse?

I do. First, you can be a good, practicing Catholic without ever praying a rosary. Or praying to a saint outside of Mass.

Jesus gave Peter authority. At no point did he take it away. The Church can say what is and is not dogma. Catholics do not use a Cliff Notes Bible.

**“Or praying to a saint outside of Mass.” ** In the Chronicles, we find that God was angry with Saul, because he saught answers from Samuel. Saul should have saught answers from God. The Lord God Almighty is our father in heaven, not anyone else. Jesus Christ (Who He, Himself said that there is no one good but God.), tells us, that we don’t know how to pray, and therefore gave us The Lord’s Prayer. He also tells us, that anything [righteous] that we ask of His Father, in His (Jesus’) name, will be granted unto us. Only The Holy Ghost and Jesus can make intercession between us and The Lord God Almighty. Saints cannot do this (especially ‘man-made’ ones).

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**“Or praying to a saint outside of Mass.” ** In the Chronicles, we find that God was angry with Saul, because he saught answers from Samuel. Saul should have saught answers from God. The Lord God Almighty is our father in heaven, not anyone else. Jesus Christ (Who He, Himself said that there is no one good but God.), tells us, that we don’t know how to pray, and therefore gave us The Lord’s Prayer. He also tells us, that anything [righteous] that we ask of His Father, in His (Jesus’) name, will be granted unto us. Only The Holy Ghost and Jesus can make intercession between us and The Lord God Almighty. Saints cannot do this (especially ‘man-made’ ones).

*
“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” * James 5:16
*
“You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us in answer to many prayers.” * 2 Cor 1:11
*
“I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers”* Eph 1:16
*
“And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you”* Col 1:9

God bless

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Possible, but where are they now? They are not practicing Jews.

That is what happened to the lost tribes. They moved or were taken from the land and they intermarried into other cultures, losing their Jewish connection

The group I was referring to are practicing Jews! Even down to the little caps on the back of the mens heads. They’ve clearly had Non-Jewish Africans convert to the Jewish Faith and intermarry with them, since they all look by appearance black African. They’ve not lost their Jewish connection, history or culture.

 

[sambos671]

Where are the Tribes today? Where were they when Jesus walked the earth?

In Judea.

 

[Ghosty]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. My question still remains. Has God anointed the R.C. Church above His anointed children?

This is a false dichotomy. You are presuming that the “Annointed Children” are completely seperate from the Catholic Church, which is false. There are some who are indeed outside the Church, and they have fallen away from the true Jewish Faith, as St. John says in Revelation:

I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

St. Paul also speaks of Jews that have been “broken off” of the Tree. These are the originators of modern Judaism, according to Apostolic Tradition. There were, of course, Jews who did not go their seperate way, and remained true to the Faith and the Catholic Church. Over time they have blended into the rest of the population, since there is no longer a mandate to remain distinct (though some have chosen to do so.

So it’s not a case of “either the Jews, or the Catholic Church”, but rather “either Rabbinical Judaism (called false by the Apostles), or the Messianic Temple Judaism called the Catholic Church”.

Peace and God bless!

 

[swariffin]

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God, that came by way of the Israelites. The scriptures tell us, that first the gentiles will be saved, and then the jews/Israelites (grafting back in). Is R.C. not a gentile religion/faith? Would God require the gentiles to teach the Israelites (the anointed children of God), in order for them to become saved?

Back to the title of this thread. Does the Israelite (as the citizen of a country named Israel) need the RCC in order to become saved? The answer is not necessarily. If the question is Does the Israelite need the Word of God to become saved, the answer is Yes, Indeed.

 

[laverita]

Well, why didn’t they remain observant jews? Jesus told them to strictly observe the Torah. They developed another religion, and Jesus had no part in it. Jesus lived his whole life as a jew. He was so jewish that thousands in his own time believed that he was the true messiah, you can’t get more jewish than that.

You believe in replacement theology. You believe that you can replace the jewish and inherit the promises God made solely to them. It is a genocidal idea really. The term christ has no meaning beyond the throne of David. Christ is promised to Israel alone.

I differ a bit with your last statement. Lots of OT references that the One to come would be from the Jews but would before all people. That fact starts i Gen 12:3 to Abram not yet Abraham.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[laverita]

You are missing the whole point. There were and are, 12 tribes of Israel. Jews are mainly from the tribe of Judah (King David’s line). Were all 12 tribes included in the first churches? Christ states that ‘All Israel shall be saved’. Somewhere along the line, God began ‘grafting’ His chosen people back in. The big question is, did He do this through Catholicism, or Protestantism?

And Paul clearly tough that the Nation of Israel is not Israel of the promise. So who is Israel that is the Question.

Romans 9:6

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”** 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed**. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

As to your apparent dispensationalism view that Jews and Israel will in the end be saved or their blindness will be lifted is a stretch. I looked at this carefully and my opinion is that the time of Jewish nation ended not long after the cross. You have to butcher a lot of scripture to fit dispensationalism into the reading. The most notable and forced scripture is here. Dispensationist will take this verse and add 2000 or more years between the 69 and 70 week. Last time I checked 70 followed 69. other wise its not the 70th week. At this time the Jews are no longer under the old covenant but the new. The old temple and sacrifices have no meaning of value any longer. For God to allow or receive such a thing is contrary to the work Jesus did. Unless you would like to think God made one way for Jews and another for Non Jews.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Jewish Nation) and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Gabriel the Angel was pretty clear about the time and mission of the people of Danial. Only one other place in the bible 70(weeks) times 7(days) is mentioned. Matthew 18:22

This Pretty much covers the finished work of Jesus.

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.