Does an unbaptized owe a debt to God that a baptized does not?

[thenobes]

Does an unbaptized person owe a debt to God that a baptized person does not?

Seems to me that guilt is having wronged someone, and so needing to repay that wrong. If Original sin involves guilt on our part, then we have wronged God and need to repay.

So if an unbaptized has not wronged God, he can’t be said to have a debt or have guilt.

Any thoughts? I can’t seem to resolve this question, although it seems to put a finger on the Orthodox objection to OS.

peace
steve

 

[snarflemike]

Personally, language about debts that we owe that we cannot pay makes my head explode. An unbaptized person is in some fashion separated from God in a way a baptized person is not. Baptism (not necessarily water baptism) is the only way it has been revealed to us to overcome this separation, which is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for salvation.

 

[Publisher]

Personally, language about debts that we owe that we cannot pay makes my head explode. An unbaptized person is in some fashion separated from God in a way a baptized person is not. Baptism (not necessarily water baptism) is the only way it has been revealed to us to overcome this separation, which is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for salvation.

On this we agree…I have not undergone a ritual cleansing of water…yet my heart is at peace with God through Christ…There IS one Baptism that truly cleanses us from sin and brings us into union with God…when one is baptized in His Holy Spirit…no ritual cleansing with water can take the plae of the One Baptism that truly changes lives…'one can enter the waters of baptism a “dry sinner” and exit a 'wet sinner…but one Baptized in the Holy Spirit cannot remain unchanged."

 

[Nita]

Seems to me that guilt is having wronged someone, and so needing to repay that wrong. If Original sin involves guilt on our part, then we have wronged God and need to repay.

So if an unbaptized has not wronged God, he can’t be said to have a debt or have guilt.

Perhaps the following from the CCC will help:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

**405 ** Although it is proper to each individual, **original sin does not have the character of a personal fault **in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, …

Adam and Eve had personal guilt for that first sin. We do not have personal guilt for it.

 

[JohnTomHoc]

Does an unbaptized person owe a debt to God that a baptized person does not?

Seems to me that guilt is having wronged someone, and so needing to repay that wrong. If Original sin involves guilt on our part, then we have wronged God and need to repay.

So if an unbaptized has not wronged God, he can’t be said to have a debt or have guilt.

Any thoughts? I can’t seem to resolve this question, although it seems to put a finger on the Orthodox objection to OS.

peace
steve

It’s impossible for a person who has not received baptism to resist all sin, even if they resist many sins; the disposition to sin is uncorrected, and is not correctable by any other means except admission to the supernatural life of God. One would have to be equal to the one person who had been exempted from all sin from the moment of her conception, the Mother of God, in order to have incurred no sin & no debt towards God as a consequence.

 

[thenobes]

Adam and Eve had personal guilt for that first sin. We do not have personal guilt for it.

But we must have some sort of guilt.

Just as the Levites were said by the writer of Hebrews to have tithed Melchisedek through Abraham, so we could be said to have committed the original sin of Adam through Adam.

Maybe not personal guilt, but definitely in Adam we wronged God. Maybe it could be called relational guilt.

peace
steve

 

[ahs]

But we must have some sort of guilt.

Just as the Levites were said by the writer of Hebrews to have tithed Melchisedek through Abraham, so we could be said to have committed the original sin of Adam through Adam.

Maybe not personal guilt, but definitely in Adam we wronged God. Maybe it could be called relational guilt.

peace
steve

Think of it more as a lack of grace. Original sin (committed by Adam and Eve) removed, from the human race, the Sanctifying Grace that is necessary to have eternal Life with God. God gave us Baptism* as a means** by which He imparts this Sanctifying Grace to us. So those who are not Baptized, do not have this Sanctifying Grace which is necessary for eternal life.

(*Water baptism, baptism by blood/desire, as in the case of martyrs…those who give their life for Christ, or those as the thief on the cross, etc… **The “ordinary” means…but not the “only” means, as God is not limited by the sacraments that He gives us.)

 

[Nita]

But we must have some sort of guilt.

Just as the Levites were said by the writer of Hebrews to have tithed Melchisedek through Abraham, so we could be said to have committed the original sin of Adam through Adam.

Maybe not personal guilt, but definitely in Adam we wronged God. Maybe it could be called relational guilt.

peace
steve

The Catechism says it so well. (See my Post #4)
404 …It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

**405 **Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, …

The “deprivation of original holiness and justice” is the deprivation of Sanctifying Grace ahs refers to in his Post. Sanctifying Grace is the “gift that God makes to us of His own life, …” (see CCC #1999 and 2000 vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Z.HTM )

The Catechism explains it in paragraphs 375 and 376:
375 …Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice.” This grace of original holiness was “to share in … divine life.”

376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. …comprised the state called “original justice.”

Adam and Eve had the guilt of that first/original sin, but their descendants do not. We are born in the “state” of original sin. I don’t think the word “guilt” (in regards to Original Sin) is ever used for Adam & Eve’s descendants.

 

[Nita]

We are born in the “state” of original sin. I don’t think the word “guilt” (in regards to Original Sin) is ever used for Adam & Eve’s descendants.

I am in errror. Decided to dig a little and found the Council of Trent did use that terminology in one of it’s declarations in the “Decree On Original Sin”.
(Denzinger 792 web.archive.org/web/20110724142046/http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma8.php )
5. If anyone denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted, …

 

[fhansen]

Does an unbaptized person owe a debt to God that a baptized person does not?

Seems to me that guilt is having wronged someone, and so needing to repay that wrong. If Original sin involves guilt on our part, then we have wronged God and need to repay.

So if an unbaptized has not wronged God, he can’t be said to have a debt or have guilt.

Any thoughts? I can’t seem to resolve this question, although it seems to put a finger on the Orthodox objection to OS.

peace
steve

We’re baptized, at the command of Jesus, as a response of our faith for the remission of sin, both our personal sins and original sin. This faith/baptism reconciles man with God, since we’re all born separated from Him. This separation is what man’s injustice consists of: nothing we’ve caused and yet a condition we all share which we see if we take even a cursory look at ourselves and others: the state of human nature in general with the sin we observe and may participate in everyday. To the extent that we remain in Christ-to the degree that man and God commune- we don’t sin.

 

[ericc]

Baptism brings us membership into God’s family. I don’t believe there is any sort of debt being cleared with baptism. Someone correct me if I am wrong.