Does anybody else find the title "Traditional Catholicism" a bit offensive?

[Cristiano]

Usually “traditional Catholicism” refers to those who prefer the TLM or claim it is a better form of Mass. At its most extreme, it may include people who do not accept that the OF is valid, although these are not likely to post on CAF.

There are no implications regarding Eastern Catholicism from this term.

I think that you are mixing a lot of things here. You are mixing Traditional Catholics with heretics and that is not good. Traditional Catholicism simply means a special preference toward the EF of the Mass and toward devotions that are not common anymore. When you start to attach other information to it you create a big fracture among Catholics. If I were to call myself a Traditional Catholic in public I would never accept to be mixed with people that consider one form superior to the other one or even worst to call one form invalid.

 

[NewsTheMan]

You are mixing Traditional Catholics with heretics and that is not good.

Which heretics? Have they been officially named and condemned as heretics? Let’s be careful with words here. There is a certain group, SSPX, who are quite undecided about the Novus Ordo but in any case they have not been condemned as schismatics or heretics.

Traditional Catholicism simply means a special preference toward the EF of the Mass and toward devotions that are not common anymore.

Perhaps on this website, this is accurate (because this is all they allow, for better and worse and I am fine with that). I hold to more than just a preference to the EF (I believe the EF is superior), as do most traditional Catholics (including the FSSP).I pray devotions that may not be common but they should be (slightly tongue in cheek, as the rosary is still very common as far as I know)

 

[ProVobis]

Don’t forget St. Stephen, and all the early, early Church saints and martyrs? Surely they did not know in their lives what is today considered the “extra-ordinary” form of the Mass.

Or even the New Testament writings as we know them, for that matter.

 

[James924]

Which heretics? Have they been officially named and condemned as heretics? Let’s be careful with words here. There is a certain group, SSPX, who are quite undecided about the Novus Ordo but in any case they have not been condemned as schismatics or heretics.

Perhaps on this website, this is accurate (because this is all they allow, for better and worse and I am fine with that). I hold to more than just a preference to the EF (I believe the EF is superior), as do most traditional Catholics (including the FSSP).I pray devotions that may not be common but they should be (slightly tongue in cheek, as the rosary is still very common as far as I know)

I think he may have been referring to the Sedevecantists, not the SSPX.

 

[floresco]

I think that you are mixing a lot of things here. You are mixing Traditional Catholics with heretics and that is not good. Traditional Catholicism simply means a special preference toward the EF of the Mass and toward devotions that are not common anymore. When you start to attach other information to it you create a big fracture among Catholics. If I were to call myself a Traditional Catholic in public I would never accept to be mixed with people that consider one form superior to the other one or even worst to call one form invalid.

I am describing how the term “traditional Catholicism” is used. It has the range of meaning that I said it did. For example, if you were to look it up on Wikipedia or check the definition used on Fish Eaters, you would see that all these positions use the term “traditional Catholic”.

The situation on CAF does not allow much opportunity for expression of opinions of those who consider the EF to be superior or the OF to be invalid. However in the larger context people who believe these things are likely to call themselves traditional Catholics.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I think he may have been referring to the Sedevecantists, not the SSPX.

Ah, mea culpa. I don’t know if heretic is the right word. Schismatic? Confused? Anyway, apologies to the poster if I misunderstood.

 

[Cristiano]

Which heretics? Have they been officially named and condemned as heretics? Let’s be careful with words here. There is a certain group, SSPX, who are quite undecided about the Novus Ordo but in any case they have not been condemned as schismatics or heretics.

Perhaps on this website, this is accurate (because this is all they allow, for better and worse and I am fine with that). I hold to more than just a preference to the EF (I believe the EF is superior), as do most traditional Catholics (including the FSSP).I pray devotions that may not be common but they should be (slightly tongue in cheek, as the rosary is still very common as far as I know)

Anyone that denies the validity of the OF is an heretic. You are calling the SSPX heretics not I. The SSPX made it quite clear about the preference for the EF but I have not seen any official statement that denies the validity of the OF. If the SSPX superior general in agreement with the priests of the fraternity were to make a statement that the OF is invalid then the SSPX would be an heretical organization. I sincerely believe that the SSPX, as a fraternity, does not and will not deny the validity of the OF.

 

[PhilOSophia]

this may be correct in your local OF parish, but in the my diocese, these and other teachings of the Chruch are upheld, preached upon, and we are all encouraged to follow the teachings of the Church.

Doesn’t mean much. I’ve been to masses in different parishes, across two countries, religious and diocesan, and the erosion is plain to see.

‘My parish is OK, therefore most others are’ is poor logic.

I think priests are stuck inside The Matrix Of Modernism: they don’t ‘get’ that, statistically, across a huge population, a people-facing mass with local sentimentality catered to is, generally, going to lead to less solemnity and rigour. That’s all it takes for decay to set in. And individidual experience in one parish is just that: local. Good for you if yours is OK.

Those that had the experience of the old way rejected it or were sidelined and the newer priests have been taught that Vatican II Is The Only Way.

 

[James924]

Anyone that denies the validity of the OF is an heretic. You are calling the SSPX heretics not I. The SSPX made it quite clear about the preference for the EF but I have not seen any official statement that denies the validity of the OF. If the SSPX superior general in agreement with the priests of the fraternity were to make a statement that the OF is invalid then the SSPX would be an heretical organization. I sincerely believe that the SSPX, as a fraternity, does not and will not deny the validity of the OF.

The SSPX has repeatedly affirmed the sacramental validity of the Novus Ordo.

 

[Cristiano]

I think he may have been referring to the Sedevecantists, not the SSPX.

I am not referring to anyone in particular, it is not my job to make public declarations of whom is an heretic or in schism. I limit myself to repeat what the Church teaches. An heretic denies the Truth in certain teachings or sacraments and a person in schism does not have to be an heretic but he is not in full union with the Catholic Church.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I don’t know: I gave up taking offense at a lot of stuff quite some time ago. I was expending way too much energy in concerning myself with what a label, any kind of label, meant. In any case, I’ve been called a lot worse at one time or another than a “traditional” (whatever that means!) Catholic.

I’m not sure if I’ve developed more magnamity, more serenity, or just have gotten lazier. But quite frankly, no one can offend me if I don’t take offense.

When asked my faith tradition, I say, “Roman Catholic,” and leave it at that. If people decide to pursue it further, I tell them that I believe in the tenets of the Apostles’ Creed, apostolic succession, the infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals when speaking ex cathedra, Mary, the saints, etc, etc, and if they try to shoot holes in any of those things, I don’t engage them. If they’re seriously questioning, I refer them to the catechism, and offer to take them to Mass if they are honestly interested.

But that’s just me. As I said, I don’t know if I’ve grown spiritually or just have gotten old and lazy. I did a lot of work to further my faith, and if someone really wants what I’ve found, they will be willing to do the same kind of work themselves. I don’t believe in spoon-feeding anyone over the age of two years!

:bowdown2: You are my hero. :bowdown2:

 

[Iotaunum]

I think it is sad that there is even a distinction which is made between Catholics nowadays. Fair enough; in eastern rites etc distinctions are made because of the geographical difference and difference in rites - however in the past there was no distinction made in the Latin rite. One lady attends the same Mass as myself - she is in her late 80’s. She was never referred to as a “traditional Catholic” before Vatican II - now she is: however (and this is the amazing thing) she has neither believed or done anything different! And I heard she was called a “traditionalist” becuase she made the Priest give her communion on the tongue at a friend’s funeral.

I don’t mind being called a traditionalist today, for doing what Catholics have considered the status quo in the past, however I think it is used in a derogatory manner by some - and I notice that they don’t refer to the saints as “traditionalists” when they believe and do the exact same things that we “traditionalists” are known for. I think they believe St Thomas, St Pius V, St Francis etc would be having guitar Masses and attending charismatic meetings if they were alive today.

 

[Bookcat]

I find the name “traditional Catholic” as it often gets used — to be rather a misnomer.

All Catholics are to receive and hand on “Tradition” as part of being Catholic (thus be “traditional” ).

I know the term is used by some…often to denote a preference for the a particular period in Church history but I would love if they found a different one.

Let us all profess and live the Catholic Faith – in full communion with Peter (Pope Benedict XVI).

Following Jesus Christ Our Lord with great joy!

 

[floresco]

I have a strong preference for attending the EF and some concerns about the creation of the OF. This does affect how I live out my Catholic faith. My experience is different than that of other Catholics. Is there anything wrong in giving my experience a name? And what name would work?

 

[James924]

I have a strong preference for attending the EF and some concerns about the creation of the OF. This does affect how I live out my Catholic faith. My experience is different than that of other Catholics. Is there anything wrong in giving my experience a name? And what name would work?

Well I think the original one given to us by Pope John XXIII was “prophets of gloom”. Perhaps people began to call us trads instead because they saw all of the “gloomy prophecies” were coming true…

I myself wouldn’t mind a return to “prophets of gloom”… it has a nice ring to it…

 

[PhilOSophia]

Actually, this thread is a lot of whiffle.

Traditionalist Catholics know what they mean by that term: Pre-Vatican II Catholicism. This implied criticism of post-vatican-II Catholicism results in apologetics by those who favour it. Or saying that “you shouldn’t use that term” or “post-Vatican-II Catholicism is traditional, so there”.

We know what we mean.

 

[James924]

I think it is sad that there is even a distinction which is made between Catholics nowadays. Fair enough; in eastern rites etc distinctions are made because of the geographical difference and difference in rites - however in the past there was no distinction made in the Latin rite. One lady attends the same Mass as myself - she is in her late 80’s. She was never referred to as a “traditional Catholic” before Vatican II - now she is: however (and this is the amazing thing) she has neither believed or done anything different! And I heard she was called a “traditionalist” becuase she made the Priest give her communion on the tongue at a friend’s funeral.

I don’t mind being called a traditionalist today, for doing what Catholics have considered the status quo in the past, however I think it is used in a derogatory manner by some - and I notice that they don’t refer to the saints as “traditionalists” when they believe and do the exact same things that we “traditionalists” are known for. I think they believe St Thomas, St Pius V, St Francis etc would be having guitar Masses and attending charismatic meetings if they were alive today.

Your user name = one of my top 5 favorite books (by Romano Amerio)

 

[NewsTheMan]

Your user name = one of my top 5 favorite books (by Romano Amerio)

1/3 of the way through it at the moment a must read for those who think traditionalism is just a bunch of nonsense. That and the Michael Davies books are really good (as well as the Mons. Klaus Gamber book the name of which I have forgotten)

 

[Tridentinum]

1/3 of the way through it at the moment a must read for those who think traditionalism is just a bunch of nonsense. That and the Michael Davies books are really good (as well as the Mons. Klaus Gamber book the name of which I have forgotten)

Out of Cranmer’s Godly Order, Pope John’s Council, and Pope Paul’s New Mass, which one would you say was the most interesting read?

 

[James924]

1/3 of the way through it at the moment a must read for those who think traditionalism is just a bunch of nonsense. That and the Michael Davies books are really good (as well as the Mons. Klaus Gamber book the name of which I have forgotten)

Fathers Gamber, Fortesue, and Boo-yay (can’t spell french) are three priests that Davies mentions in his talks and books over and over and I definitely need to get my hands on their stuff. BTW, there is a Davies traditionalism debate video on amazon.com. You can view it digitally or the dvd is 10 bucks. Just search for “firing line catholic orthodoxy” and that should bring it up. Its got Malachi Martin in it too. Great debate.

Also, I understand the remnant has a debate on dvd between him and another guy named michael (rose maybe?) but they haven’t returned my emails about selling it seperately and looks like they only give it away with purchase of 2 gift subscriptions…