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Does anybody in here besides me think the new words of consecration make massinvalid?
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bear06
Guest
QUOTE]this is the church, not the vatican itself, but true believers will nevr be overcome.
“Hell will not prevail” means that our Church will never formally teach heresy. It doesn’t mean that there is this little Remnant outside the heirarchy that’s going to have masses said in their homes by undercover priests the way they want it because of their interpretation of Tradition. That said, your assumptions on the words of the Consecration are wrong.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/QUOPIUS.HTM
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur46.htm
matt1618.freeyellow.com/mass.html
They are full of quotes from councils, fathers, etc.
“Hell will not prevail” means that our Church will never formally teach heresy. It doesn’t mean that there is this little Remnant outside the heirarchy that’s going to have masses said in their homes by undercover priests the way they want it because of their interpretation of Tradition. That said, your assumptions on the words of the Consecration are wrong.
On this we can concur. That said, the Magisterium being taken over and teaching heresy would be count as “prevailed against”. I’m doubting that you can find a private revalation approved by the Church saying that the Church will ever formally teach something contra to Tradition.
This is where you seem to be historically challenged. Were have you been reading?! So, even if you want to sit and argue pro-multis/pro-omnibus, it wouldn’t matter if you were right or wrong on this issue. These are not the words that change the Body and Blood and many Church fathers have said this.
The Church has never said that all people will go to heaven. Did Christ die for all? Yes. Will all accept him and believe? No.
Please read to understand that no Pope can bind another in matters of discipline (which form of the Mass is):
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/QUOPIUS.HTM
See above for further comment but just answer the question - Did Christ die for all so that sins may be forgiven? Don’t try to do your own translation on this. Just answer the question. Where in our faith does it say that Christ only died for a few? He died so that all man may gain heaven. Once again, this doesn’t mean that all will.
You don’t actually have any factual evidence to support that Bugnini was a freemason. You only have conjecture. You might want to stop and think that devil might just be using these conjectures to separate the Church and cause schism.
Hello?! Once again, you are being historically challenged. here. Let’s just look at America. We were on track for destruction far earlier than Vatican II. You seem to think that the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and pre-Vatican II 60’s were the models of morality. Have you read some of the books written during those periods? The 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s are just a continuation of this downward spiral that the Tridentine form of the Mass didn’t stop either. Remember the Kennedy’s and their followers? They came before Vatican II. Are we to blame the Tridentine Mass for them?
What proof do you have that the 50’s were the “Golden Age of Morality”? Like I said, you only need to look at the literary scene to realize that life was not the apex of morality in the pre-Vatican II era. Tennessee Williams, Hemingway, etc. Models of virtue they weren’t.
So when did the “true presence” get taken away. Like I said, you seem to be suggesting that the gates of hell have prevailed if you are saying that the heirarchy of the Church has taken away the Eucharist.
Like I said, explain Hemingway, the Kennedys, etc.
And like I’ve said before you are making your own determination of the words of the Consecration. Was St. Bonaventure wrong?Please read these:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur46.htm
matt1618.freeyellow.com/mass.html
They are full of quotes from councils, fathers, etc.
Correct. So?
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patrick456
Guest
Here’s the Whole consecration in latin (Novus Ordo):
EUCHARISTIC PRAYER II
here’s a link where i got that:
latinliturgy.com/nomass.html
EUCHARISTIC PRAYER II
sorry if this has been already quoted by others…
here’s a link where i got that:
latinliturgy.com/nomass.html
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jimmy
Guest
The wording is exactly the same for the consecration. The problem Traditionalists have is the English translation that says that Christ died for “all” instead “many”, which is in the Latin. It is not the wording that is the main problem with them. It is the change of the mass; they find the change to be invalid simply because it is more simple and it doesn’t contain all the prayers that were in the old mass.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Trcmm said:
Then I challenge you or any other so-called traditionalist who believes the approved liturgy is invalid to address the traditional 18th century teaching of Pius VI which condemns this very proposition. See my post above and read the link. It has all the ecclesiastical proof that the teaching that the approved liturgy can be dangerous or harmful to the faithful is a condemend proposition. All you are doing is resurrecting a Jansenist proposition which has already been condemned by the Church, centuries ago!!!
The link is here: Are Ecclesiastical Disciplines Infallible?
Here’s the URL if you have trouble with the link…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4136&highlight=ecclesiastical+infallible
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Trcmm,
In addition to the link I provided, here’s what **Pope Gregory XVI **states regarding your proposition, citing the same condemnation by Pius VI which I cited in the above link:
According to Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, 9 (1832):
“the discipline sanctioned by the Church must never be rejected or branded as contrary to certain principles of the natural law. It must never be called crippled, or imperfect"Pope Gregory XVI, Quo Graviora, 4-5 (1833), admonishing those like you who state:
“… categorically that there are many things in the discipline of the Church… [which] are harmful for the growth and prosperity of the Catholic religion… these men were shamefully straying in their thoughts, they proposed to fall upon the errors condemned by the Church in proposition 78 of the constitution Auctorem fidei (published by Our predecessor, Pius VI on August 28, 1794)… do they not try to make the Church human by taking away from the infallible and divine authority, by which divine will it is governed? And does it not produce the same effect to think that the present discipline of the Church rests on failures, obscurities, and other inconveniences of this kind?
And to feign that this discipline contains many things which are not useless but which are against the safety of the Catholic religion? Why is it that private individuals appropriate for themselves the right which is proper only for the pope?”
In addition to the link I provided, here’s what **Pope Gregory XVI **states regarding your proposition, citing the same condemnation by Pius VI which I cited in the above link:
According to Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, 9 (1832):
“the discipline sanctioned by the Church must never be rejected or branded as contrary to certain principles of the natural law. It must never be called crippled, or imperfect"Pope Gregory XVI, Quo Graviora, 4-5 (1833), admonishing those like you who state:
“… categorically that there are many things in the discipline of the Church… [which] are harmful for the growth and prosperity of the Catholic religion… these men were shamefully straying in their thoughts, they proposed to fall upon the errors condemned by the Church in proposition 78 of the constitution Auctorem fidei (published by Our predecessor, Pius VI on August 28, 1794)… do they not try to make the Church human by taking away from the infallible and divine authority, by which divine will it is governed? And does it not produce the same effect to think that the present discipline of the Church rests on failures, obscurities, and other inconveniences of this kind?
And to feign that this discipline contains many things which are not useless but which are against the safety of the Catholic religion? Why is it that private individuals appropriate for themselves the right which is proper only for the pope?”
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bear06
Guest
Good info, Dave! I’ll have to add these to my files. 
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HagiaSophia
Guest
It appears sadly obvious that no answers to the questions or material provided will be responded to – just the same old drill.
Without those web pages it all goes pffft!
Without those web pages it all goes pffft!
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patrick456
Guest
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bear06
Guest
Yes, it is quite typical and quite sad. I always pray that silence equals serious contemplation on where the readers have been getting their information.
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patrick456
Guest
I’ve also read that until the time of Pope Leo XIII Latin to English missals (such as we use today in TLMs) were banned and put in the Index. Then after that, the Popes wanted more participation at the mass so they allowed the Latin to English missals. There is also a plan in 1953 to introduce the vernacular into the mass (and it also says that Cardinal Ottaviani himself took this request to the pope).
matt1618.freeyellow.com/part2.html
sorry again…
matt1618.freeyellow.com/part2.html
sorry again…
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patrick456
Guest
I agree that evil has increased worldwide, but the NO mass is not to blame.
evil has been in the world since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
Also, how about 1940 and centuries before? during WWI and WWII many were killed. the Nazis and Soviets reign. Christianity was persecuted (even up to now). many were sent into concentration camps. was this a Golden Age of Morals considering it is a decade before the 50’s? Of course, many did not believe in God even before 1950. It seems that the sins of liberalism and politically-correctism and other -isms prevalent in the world tofay is to blame but not the church. not the mass.
i made my point. sorry if it’s a bit too harsh.
evil has been in the world since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
Also, how about 1940 and centuries before? during WWI and WWII many were killed. the Nazis and Soviets reign. Christianity was persecuted (even up to now). many were sent into concentration camps. was this a Golden Age of Morals considering it is a decade before the 50’s? Of course, many did not believe in God even before 1950. It seems that the sins of liberalism and politically-correctism and other -isms prevalent in the world tofay is to blame but not the church. not the mass.
i made my point. sorry if it’s a bit too harsh.
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pnewton
Guest
I have heard this claim by one other poster here. I am concerned about anyone who subscribes to such extreme conspiracy theories, be it the Masons, Illuminati, Jesuits or aliens that are behind “everything.” Remember, the more extreme the accusation, the greater the evidence needs to be to support it.
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Trcmm
Guest
About the freemasons, I don’t know alot about them but I know they run the world, the usa and infest the hiearchy, this is from their own writings where I dont know how to find them but my aunt who is much more learned than me knows.
get the book also on tan Behing the Lodge doors about freemasons.
In a book Ecumenism, written in 1908 by a freemason
" the goal is no longer the destruction of the church, but to (make use of it by infiltrating it "
Bella Dodd, a communist said that they put 3,000 men into the presithood in the 50s to destroy the curch.
Freemasons who goal seems like the destruction of the catholic faith. freemasons also believe all religons are valid, you can see this all through people who call themselves bishops and preist in todays hierarchy.
About the golden age of morality.
I mean, that sin has increased to a large scale. lust, movies, tv, are so filthy, its not even comparably to even in the 50s, which was sinful but its out of control now. At least they treated women with more respect back then, and now there is hardly no morality at all, abortion, people being taught by this filthy tv to masturbate.
Its like what was considered evil back then is good now, and whats considered good back then is bad now.
I think it was because of the new mass changing the words, morality and decency is far worse tha its ever been and it only increases.
example, they allow 13 year olds to see movies like american pie which promotes all sorts of evil filthy behaviour truly sucking innocents out of kids.
sucks it out of them like a vacuum cleaner. how can you tell me this stuff is not worse now?
ganster rap, the era I grew up in, is so rebelliously evil, it makes souls act like they are so hard core that they are warped of any virtues they had left. ive seen this music destroy someonein my families life completely to the point where he has become the music.
This stuff has only increased along with technology since the NO the new mass was created which changed the words of consecration.
get the book also on tan Behing the Lodge doors about freemasons.
In a book Ecumenism, written in 1908 by a freemason
" the goal is no longer the destruction of the church, but to (make use of it by infiltrating it "
Bella Dodd, a communist said that they put 3,000 men into the presithood in the 50s to destroy the curch.
Freemasons who goal seems like the destruction of the catholic faith. freemasons also believe all religons are valid, you can see this all through people who call themselves bishops and preist in todays hierarchy.
About the golden age of morality.
I mean, that sin has increased to a large scale. lust, movies, tv, are so filthy, its not even comparably to even in the 50s, which was sinful but its out of control now. At least they treated women with more respect back then, and now there is hardly no morality at all, abortion, people being taught by this filthy tv to masturbate.
Its like what was considered evil back then is good now, and whats considered good back then is bad now.
I think it was because of the new mass changing the words, morality and decency is far worse tha its ever been and it only increases.
example, they allow 13 year olds to see movies like american pie which promotes all sorts of evil filthy behaviour truly sucking innocents out of kids.
sucks it out of them like a vacuum cleaner. how can you tell me this stuff is not worse now?
ganster rap, the era I grew up in, is so rebelliously evil, it makes souls act like they are so hard core that they are warped of any virtues they had left. ive seen this music destroy someonein my families life completely to the point where he has become the music.
This stuff has only increased along with technology since the NO the new mass was created which changed the words of consecration.
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pnewton
Guest
Do you truly not realize how illogical this sounds? You present this proposition with no other basis other than blind faith. Unless you have had some special vision or revelation, what is your authority for believing this to be true?
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Trcmm
Guest
Its not blind faith, ive read the information before but I cant remember it off top of my head.
They have talked about in their books like ecumenism infiltrating the church to creat a (one) world religion world.
joining all religons into one is their goal. you have to do search engine and study their own writings. many presidents were freemasons in history, the whol cuntry was founded by freemasons posing as christians, GWB is a freemason. Im sure you know about the dollar bill and te pyramid being a symbol of freemasonry, that info is on theinternet as well. The info is out there yu just have to search forit.
You can see massive hints of this by JP2 world reigious meetings, and by bishops who promote gays, who allow rpaest preist to go on vacation, this happened in our city.
someofthese evl men in te hierarchy, I garuntee you are infiltrators set out to destroy our faith.
The devil even told Pope Leo Xlll back in te late1800s that he will need only 100 year to destroy the church.
The original St Michael prayer even talks about some of this, which was removed, and now is a much shorter prayer.
you have to read and search.
heres one qoute I made sure to write down since I have short memory sometimes with knowing large amounts of info.
Encyclical letter August 25,1910
Pope Pius X, our apostilic mandate
" A great movement of apostasy is being organized in every country for the establishment of a (one world church) which will have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy under the pretext of (freedom and (human) dignity "
he knew it was coming, and it is now and will get worse before God cleanses the church.
They have talked about in their books like ecumenism infiltrating the church to creat a (one) world religion world.
joining all religons into one is their goal. you have to do search engine and study their own writings. many presidents were freemasons in history, the whol cuntry was founded by freemasons posing as christians, GWB is a freemason. Im sure you know about the dollar bill and te pyramid being a symbol of freemasonry, that info is on theinternet as well. The info is out there yu just have to search forit.
You can see massive hints of this by JP2 world reigious meetings, and by bishops who promote gays, who allow rpaest preist to go on vacation, this happened in our city.
someofthese evl men in te hierarchy, I garuntee you are infiltrators set out to destroy our faith.
The devil even told Pope Leo Xlll back in te late1800s that he will need only 100 year to destroy the church.
The original St Michael prayer even talks about some of this, which was removed, and now is a much shorter prayer.
you have to read and search.
heres one qoute I made sure to write down since I have short memory sometimes with knowing large amounts of info.
Encyclical letter August 25,1910
Pope Pius X, our apostilic mandate
" A great movement of apostasy is being organized in every country for the establishment of a (one world church) which will have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy under the pretext of (freedom and (human) dignity "
he knew it was coming, and it is now and will get worse before God cleanses the church.
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otm
Guest
What I am trying to figure out is how a conspiratorialist, and an apparent sede vacantist and/or SSPXer has managed to jerk everyone’s chains so hard?
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palmas85
Guest
**OH NO **!!! They haven’t joined forces with the Zionists yet have they? Please say no!!! :bigyikes: According to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, they were seeking to establish a one world religion and take over the world as well. And YOU KNOW who runs the banks and the financial institutions, don’t you?
With the Zionists controlling the money and the Freemasons running the Church we’ll be finished, no hope at all, none whatsoever, oh well, what the heck, . I guess i’ll just jump on Minister Farrakhans UFO and fly away if things get really bad.
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patrick456
Guest
About the consecration thing…
Why not just read the documents of vatican II so you would know it straight from the horse’s mouth and not from others who speak of the “Spirit of Vaitcan II”.
Also did you read the links i gave?
matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixa.html
Why not just read the documents of vatican II so you would know it straight from the horse’s mouth and not from others who speak of the “Spirit of Vaitcan II”.
Also did you read the links i gave?
matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixa.html
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patrick456
Guest
Here is a quote about the Pro Vobis et Pro multis thing…
matt1618.freeyellow.com/novusordo.html
Especially look at chapter IV…
matt1618.freeyellow.com/novusordo.html
Especially look at chapter IV…
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