Does anyone commit a mortal sin, knowingly?

[pepipop]

You were raised Catholic and did not know that the Church teaches pre-marital sex and the use of artificial contraception within marriage are sinful???

Do you know it now?

Chuck

I didn’t know either, years ago. I knew that others who were practicing catholics were having pre-marital sex and when I was much younger, I knew of friends of my parents, who were practicing catholics, using contraception in the 70’s (as it was so ‘new’ and I overheard conversations discussing it). When you’re young and growing up with no continued access to the catechism, you look up to your elders and betters and if they are church goers and doing it, then it must be ok. There’s a lot of societal influences especially on children and teenagers and young adults, which views stay with them.

I now know that it is totally wrong and a sin. But I did not ‘know’ then.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I didn’t know either, years ago. I knew that others that were practicing catholics were having pre-marital sex and when I was much younger, I knew of friends of my parents who were practicing catholics using contraception in the 70’s (as it was so ‘new’ and I overheard conversations discussing it), and when you’re young and growing up with no continued access to the catechism, you think as your elders and betters church goers are doing it, then it must be ok. There’s a lot of societal influences especially on children and teenagers and young adults, which views stay with them.

I now know that it is totally wrong and a sin. But I did not ‘know’ then.

So what you are saying is that you did not know that the Catholic Church teaches that these are sins?

Were you aware of the Catechism back then? Did you have classes to prepare you for the Sacraments?

 

[clmowry]

I didn’t know either, years ago. I knew that others who were practicing catholics were having pre-marital sex and when I was much younger, I knew of friends of my parents, who were practicing catholics, using contraception in the 70’s (as it was so ‘new’ and I overheard conversations discussing it). When you’re young and growing up with no continued access to the catechism, you look up to your elders and betters and if they are church goers and doing it, then it must be ok. There’s a lot of societal influences especially on children and teenagers and young adults, which views stay with them.

I now know that it is totally wrong and a sin. But I did not ‘know’ then.

Do as I say, not as I do has never been a very good teaching method.

I could see how this would be a problem, particularly in the 70s.

It would seem that you may have been Catholic, but your catechesis wasn’t exactly up to snuff.

Of course after one becomes an adult that burden transfers away from ones parents to oneself.

I guess I could see how someone that was only “nominally” raised Catholic would end up in this boat.

Chuck

 

[AnneTeresa]

You were raised Catholic and did not know that the Church teaches pre-marital sex and the use of artificial contraception within marriage are sinful???

Do you know it now?

Chuck

Yes, I know it now. And I think I did know about premarital sex, but there are lots of other things I’m still finding out about now and I’m 55!

It partly depends on where and when you grew up, what your church parish was like and what your school and family were like. Don’t assume that just because someone was “raised catholic” they have any formation or understanding of the church teachings. It’s just not necessarily so.

 

[pepipop]

So what you are saying is that you did not know that the Catholic Church teaches that these are sins?

Were you aware of the Catechism back then? Did you have classes to prepare you for the Sacraments?

Yes I knew the children’s catechism at 7 and 10 yr of age, thereafter no. In retrospect, I can say i did not know contraception was a sin. I am certain it was never discussed from 7-10 yr old, and I do not remember hearing it from a pulpit either at a sermon during mass. My knoiwledge of pre-marital sex was more so in the line of, ‘that it was frowned upon, you would be a disgrace,a loose woman, etc’ more so than it was a sin against God - and even further back in the 40’s/50’, single mothers were locked up in asylums for having pre-marital sex and babies out of wedlock. So the inference was more so on the ‘reputation’ of the woman, as opposed to sinning against God.

Maybe cafeteria catholics would be helped more, if the sermons at mass went over areas of catechism more often, considering a lot will not have seen the catechism since they were 7-10 years old. The fact catechism is taught at primary school, believe me, soon leaves the memory of teenagers, young adults, etc… and their greater influences are there parents, parents friends and their peers, way of living.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes I knew the children’s catechism at 7 and 10 yr of age, thereafter no. In retrospect, I can say i did not know contraception was a sin. I am certain it was never discussed from 7-10 yr old, and I do not remember hearing it from a pulpit either at a sermon during mass. My knoiwledge of pre-marital sex was more so in the line of, ‘that it was frowned upon, you would be a disgrace,a loose woman, etc’ more so than it was a sin against God - and remember in the 40’s/50’s when single mother’s were locked up in asylums for having pre-marital sex and babies out of wedlock. So the inference was more so on the ‘reputation’ of the woman, as opposed to sinning against God.

As a 7-10 year old you were not engaged in either pre-marital sex nor contraception so it really does not matter if you “knew” that the Church taught that they are sinful.

Maybe cafeteria catholics would be helped more, if the sermons at mass went over areas of catechism more often, considering a lot will not have seen the catechism since they were 7-10 years old. The fact catechism is taught at primary school, believe me, soon leaves the memory of teenagers, young adults, etc… and their greater influences are there parents, parents friends and their peers, examples.

The purpose of the Homily at Mass (note it is not a sermon) is primarily to expound on the Readings and the Liturgical prayers at the Mass. It can be used for catechesis but it is not the primary source for such thing. Catholics know where they can get this sort of thing and it is their responsibility as adults in the faith to ensure that they have a properly formed conscience.

I think I have expressed my beliefs and opinions sufficiently on this topic. I am tired of the circles we seem to stuck in.

God Bless, please pray for me and know that I will pray for you.

 

[pepipop]

As a 7-10 year old you were not engaged in either pre-marital sex nor contraception so it really does not matter if you “knew” that the Church taught that they are sinful.

I think I have expressed my beliefs and opinions sufficiently on this topic. I am tired of the circles we seem to stuck in.

God Bless, please pray for me and know that I will pray for you.

Thank you for your prayers and I will certainly pray for you, too.

I agree, this is going around in circles and thank you for your advice.

I have a weird brain that always ends up arguing with itself - however it has made me realise how undercatechised cafeteria catholics can be.

God bless.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I just have one thing to add after some reflection.

I was a child in the 70’s as well.

I was raised in no faith tradition.

(It is a long story on how I am now a brother a Catholic religious order who is studying for the priesthood.)

Even though this is so, I knew that “Christians” (I use quotes because I did not know about the many groups of Christians out there, I just knew them as some amorphous group) thought that pre-marital sex was wrong.

 

[clmowry]

I just have one thing to add after some reflection.

I was a child in the 70’s as well.

I was raised in no faith tradition.

(It is a long story on how I am now a brother a Catholic religious order who is studying for the priesthood.)

Even though this is so, I knew that “Christians” (I use quotes because I did not know about the many groups of Christians out there, I just knew them as some amorphous group) thought that pre-marital sex was wrong.

Yeah that one seems pretty obvious (probably to just about everybody.)

But how about contraception? Not so obvious.

Chuck

 

[pepipop]

I just have one thing to add after some reflection.

I was a child in the 70’s as well.

I was raised in no faith tradition.

(It is a long story on how I am now a brother a Catholic religious order who is studying for the priesthood.)

Even though this is so, I knew that “Christians” (I use quotes because I did not know about the many groups of Christians out there, I just knew them as some amorphous group) thought that pre-marital sex was wrong.

I am not sure if this is the correct word to use, but ‘many congratulations’ on your journey to becoming a priest.

 

[Kay_Cee]

And I contend that “full knowledge” is *not *“full knowledge that an act is objectively grave matter according to the Catholic Church.” If this is the case, only Catholics, and only Catholics properly catechized, can go to hell because they alone recognize proper venial/grave distinctions.

I never said it had to be according to the Catholic Church. I also never said that we decide which sin is mortal or venial. That is up to God. I am saying, however, that many people are ignorant of what constitutes grave matter.

I am willing to be shown wrong, because this issue is important. It is equally important, however, not to make mortal sins so unattainable that we need not worry. Do you see my point? Just because I don’t *think *my severe anger towards my family (deliberately willed by me) is yet mortal does not mean that I have not murdered them in my heart. And just because my Protestant friend does not recognize “mortal sin” does not mean his premarital sex is not mortal sin.

I also never said mortal sins are so unattainable that we need not worry. However, many people are raised to believe contraception is actually a good–and they are taught by their ministers that the use of it is responsible parenting. If one truly and honestly believes this, that does not diminish the objective gravity of the sin, but it does reduce one’s culpability.

 

[Mijoy2]

Coming back to my original point, does anyone ‘knowingly’ commit a mortal sin, i.e. through malice and to hurt God - I would say practically no-one, we can all make excuses for our actions that we believe at the time to be sound reasons. Hence, would such people be seen as not committing a mortal sin? Obviously, once their sins are pointed out to them and they then wish to repent, the sinner is fully aware that his/her sin was mortal, but not usually at the time of commiting it.

You ask a very good question. I have asked this question inthese forums many different ways and it always seems to get lost in the translation. I fault myself for perhaps not articulating this correctly.

I see it much the same way you do. Let’s use the often used example of missing Sunday Mass. I know of many catholics who miss Mass knowing full well the church teaches this as a mortal sin. But somehow they rationalize it. Thus rendering it not a mortal sin in thier eyes.

How they rationalize it I suspect comes in many forms. Not the least is the lack of a full understanding of the authority of the church.

Thus here is the likely scenario as I see it:
If one does not understand (through gnorance perhaps) the teaching of the authority of the church, then they do not necassarily subscribe to the church having the authority to make such a claim. In other words they may be thinking, “as much as I love Jesus and the church, I think she has this a bit wrong”. I say my nightly prayers but I am really too busy to make it to Mass every week. God understand me".

I come to this conclusion because to think otherwise (that the individual is aware they are committing a mortal sin) implies they know it yet they miss Mass anyway (and here is the key) KNOWING they will likely go to hell for doing so. This is an irrational thought that the healthy human mind is unliekly to make.

I’m glad you asked the question, if for no other reason, it makes me realize at least someone else is thinking this way. I ponder this quesiton because of my loved ones who do not live by the faith and my concern for thier souls.

 

[King_Lazy]

Coming back to my original point, does anyone ‘knowingly’ commit a mortal sin, i.e. through malice and to hurt God - I would say practically no-one, we can all make excuses for our actions that we believe at the time to be sound reasons. Hence, would such people be seen as not committing a mortal sin? Obviously, once their sins are pointed out to them and they then wish to repent, the sinner is fully aware that his/her sin was mortal, but not usually at the time of commiting it.

Yes, I know I commit mortal sin. I may try to rationalise it, but it’s a cop-out and such rationalisation and self-justification is arrogant and prideful. If I do sometimes knowingly do the wrong thing, there are no buts, no becauses and no excuses. The reality is that I do it because it is easier or quite simply because I want to, and I may make up reasons as to why it’s okay, but it’s wrong, and it deserves punishment.

 

[pepipop]

*I come to this conclusion because to think otherwise (that the individual is aware they are committing a mortal sin) implies they know it yet they miss Mass anyway (and here is the key) KNOWING they will likely go to hell for doing so. This is an irrational thought that the healthy human mind is unliekly to make.

I’m glad you asked the question, if for no other reason, it makes me realize at least someone else is thinking this way. I ponder this quesiton because of my loved ones who do not live by the faith and my concern for thier souls.*

Mijoy, we seem to be coming from the same place. Your example above is very good, the person missing mass will still be praying to God and has rationalised that their missing mass is not that great a sin - in no way are they thinking they are going to hell, for doing so, if they died that day.

Exactly, I am asking the question due to loved one’s lifestyles and my concern for their souls.

 

[pepipop]

Yes, I know I commit mortal sin. I may try to rationalise it, but it’s a cop-out and such rationalisation and self-justification is arrogant and prideful. If I do sometimes knowingly do the wrong thing, there are no buts, no becauses and no excuses. The reality is that I do it because it is easier or quite simply because I want to, and I may make up reasons as to why it’s okay, but it’s wrong, and it deserves punishment.

Well, I can only go by the way I used to see it, and I did not think at that time think my sins were due punishment, as I was still praying to God, going to mass, and so on. Now, I know differently, through God’s grace, when I became more knowledgable, prayerful and repentant.

 

[King_Lazy]

Whilst I agree with you, I do not necessarily think that the man will be thinking of offending God, when committing his sin.

You don’t have to know that you’re offending God. If that were the case, the surest way of getting to heaven would be to become an atheist and stop believing in God.

We have the moral law written in our hearts. If we’re not faithful Christians, we find it easy to placate our consciences with rationalisations to such an extent that we stop feeling the gravity of our sins. We become prideful and confident in the rectitude of our conduct. It might seem innocuous, but it’s actually an extremely dangerous state of rebellion. Imagine seeing God face-to-face after dying in such a state and saying, “I didn’t do anything wrong! I don’t need your mercy!”

That’s precisely what can happen. It’s a prideful and arrogant attitude that soothes and placates our consciences and blinds us to the evil we commit. At death, our internal disposition of pride or humility will be amplified a thousandfold, and it’s the same pride that will cause us to turn away from God in hatred should we not repent and acknowledge the evilness of our actions.

It takes an absolutely extraordinary grace of God to preserve an unfaithful Christian or a non-Christian from mortal sin or to bring them to true repentance - perfect contrition, which is why those unfaithful to the Church or outside it are in extremely grave danger of damnation and we must pray and do what we can to save them before it’s too late.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Things are not as rosy as we would like them to be. And so we must not neglect our duty to show people the way to the narrow road. Our own salvation depends on loving our neighbours, family and friends and doing what we can to save them through prayer, action and word.

It’s only when someone comes to repentance that they fully realise their sins.

Absolutely correct. And repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Well, I can only go by the way I used to see it, and I did not think at that time think my sins were due punishment, as I was still praying to God, going to mass, and so on. Now, I know differently, through God’s grace, when I became more knowledgable, prayerful and repentant.

As you’ve grown closer to God, you have become more humble too and you are getting a stronger sense of when you go against His will. You’ve begun to acknowledge your need for repentance and your need for mercy. That’s good. And it goes to show how bad it was before.

 

[pepipop]

*Things are not as rosy as we would like them to be. And so we must not neglect our duty to show people the way to the narrow road. Our own salvation depends on loving our neighbours, family and friends and doing what we can to save them through prayer, action and word.
*

As you’ve grown closer to God, you have become more humble too and you are getting a stronger sense of when you go against His will. You’ve begun to acknowledge your need for repentance and your need for mercy. That’s good. And it goes to show how bad it was before.

Well of course, yes, but then you are judging me at the time before I received the grace of God to strengthen my faith. As another poster pointed out they feel the same way, as they worry about their loved ones - who are like I was - and are not ‘bad’ people, they believe in God, but do not realise the committment God would wish from all of us.

Personally, I believe the ones who, through God’s grace, now realise their error and have humilty, the holy fear of God, wish to do God’s will should be praying constantly for forgiveness / further conversion for those that are ‘unaware’ - having been one of those people/sinners myself - who still went to mass each Sunday, visited all the marion sites in Europe, read religious books and so on - but now I realise my errors, through God’s grace. So, as you point out we should rightfully be helping all others who are not aware.

Although, we all can aspire to be saints, not all will neccessarily be saints and there will be levels of spiritual maturity throughout the catholic church and other religions. I cannot see the cafeteria catholics being condemned to hell, as each of us has been given different gifts and their lifestyles may be what God wishes from them, possibly to help pure atheists, secularists (I genuinely don’t know), as if all religious people were totally ‘saintly’ it would completely frighten off the hedonists/atheists/secularists and they would learn nothing, they would sneer and be frightened off, whereas they may get glimmers of God through relatively ‘religious’ people’s behaviours, i.e. cafeteria catholics. It’s all to do with the communities/societies these people were born into,and the example ‘they’ can show even though it may not be a perfect example of living like Christ. (I hope this makes sense and it is only my opinion).

If we were all saints, then we wouldn’t need to be on earth anymore - the button would already have been pressed!

 

[Church_Militant]

The only way to commit a mortal sin is to do so knowingly.

1. It has to be a grave matter
2. You have to have full knowledge of that.
3. You have to give the full consent of your will.

Mortal sin is a deliberate act rejecting God’s love to knowingly do something gravely wrong.

You might willfully satisfy points 1 & 3 and yet if you didn’t know it was mortal sin…it might mitigate it even though it would still be gravely sinful.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The only way to commit a mortal sin is to do so knowingly.

1. It has to be a grave matter
2. You have to have full knowledge of that.
3. You have to give the full consent of your will.

Mortal sin is a deliberate act rejecting God’s love to knowingly do something gravely wrong.

You might willfully satisfy points 1 & 3 and yet if you didn’t know it was mortal sin…it might mitigate it even though it would still be gravely sinful.

The full knowledge does not mean that one knows it is a mortal sin. All that is required is that one knows it is a sin.

If it required the knowledge that it was a mortal sin then only properly catecheized Catholics could ever commit a mortal sin. So then hell could only be full of such Catholics.

 

[CapitalT]

Thank you, ByzCath. The Catechism defines “full knowledge” as “knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law” (1859). It is enough to know something is against God’s law. Ex. an improperly catechized Catholic who knows contraception is wrong according to the Church but doesn’t recognize a mortal/venial distinction might still be committing mortal sin by using contraception.

Kay Cee, my point is that I further disagree that we have to have knowledge that a sin is objectively “grave” (in things we cannot know by natural law, like Sunday obligation, or things that we can, like murder) to have full knowledge and thus commit mortal sin.

Ignorance of what constitutes grave matter does not mean one cannot commit mortal sin; I’d contend it makes it much easier to commit mortal sin. All we need is to know that something is in opposition to God’s law and to commit it deliberately, and if it is grave matter we have committed mortal sin and must go to reconciliation.