Does anyone else do this?

[NewsTheMan]

A priest cannot preform (pray) the mass in solitude.

Yes he can. Many often do.

We are accidental. We go to participate in the prayer of the Priest on behalf of us all. That is what it means to participate. The Mass is for God, and we receive merits from it.

 

[Big_Feet]

Yes he can. Many often do.

if they do, this is a VERY discouraged practice.

 

[NewsTheMan]

if they do, this is a VERY discouraged practice.

No it isn’t. Priests do it all the time, there are even specific rubrics for it. Go look it up. Ask a priest. You are blatantly lying right now - though I assume it is ignorance rather than spitefulness.

I mean, what do you think hermits do?

Anyway, this is becoming farcical. I thank you all for being patient with me, I think all that needs to be said has been said.

 

[Aeolian]

See my above post. It seems to be prescribed. So we’ve settled it.

If you cannot understand or appreciate the vertical/horizontal distinction that is okay. But it doesn’t make it any less true. The Mass is a vertical action in it’s entirety. Horizontal actions that are out of place take away from the Mass.

Do you speak this way to people in person? As I said, none of the additions mentioned bother me in the least, not that it’s my call. In a very real sense they are none of my business and I shouldn’t be noticing them anyway. What does bother me are people like you who feel they are the arbiters of what should be allowed for addition and that which should not be allowed. That your “proof” is better than others. Once you’ve embraced one addition your voice is muted when you try to question others. I am sure you have experienced frustration because people won’t listen to your opinions on such matters. Hopefully you’ll begin to understand why.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Do you speak this way to people in person?

What way? Of course I speak frankly in important matters. I have not been rude. I type economically, and quickly, and to get my point across.

What does bother me are people like you who feel they are the arbiters of what should be allowed for addition and that which should not be allowed.

Oh, believe me, if I were the arbitrator I would change many things, and undoubtedly also make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully God hasn’t given me that role. I am in a forum discussion. Learning, and hopefully make things clear. I have quoted the GIRM [which, by the way, agreed with me], and I have used reason. I have studied the liturgy (though, not academically) so I use terms and ideas that make sense to me.

Fortunately for both of us, the Church has the rubrics.

That your “proof” is better than others. Once you’ve embraced one addition your voice is muted when you try to question others.

No. The thing is that not once has this ever come up. It is never a concern. Bowing ones head is an “addition” to the rubrics? Give me a break. The orans position is reserved for the Sacred Minister. So that is settled. Holding hands, while not strictly disallowed, has been questionned a lot in the past 40 years and Rome is looking into it. In the meantime, not once has it ever worried a soul that people are bowing their heads as a mark of respect for the Eucharist.

But since you don’t trust me, have a look at the following articles by Priests (who are trained in these matters). If you can find me a single thing which says that bowing the head during the elevation is questionable, I will gladly submit that perhaps it is not as cut and dry as I have been saying it is.

Father Z
Father Saunders
EWTN Zenit Article

I am sure you have experienced frustration because people won’t listen to your opinions on such matters. Hopefully you’ll begin to understand why.

You have now twice directed your opinion against me as a person rather than my post. Thank you for the concern, but I do quite well in real life.

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

Wow, everyone, I didn’t expect this thread to get so many replies.

I almost feel bad for starting all the debate in this thread. I don’t wish to see any of you fighting over these things.

Thank you for all the replies. Glad to know that I’m not alone in this practice!

 

[Aramis]

Yes he can. Many often do.

We are accidental. We go to participate in the prayer of the Priest on behalf of us all. That is what it means to participate. The Mass is for God, and we receive merits from it.

It’s not permitted to say the mass without at least one other person, except in special circumstances.

From the current GIRM:
252. At a Mass celebrated by a Priest with only one minister to assist him and to make the responses, the rite of Mass with the people is followed (cf. nos. 120-169), the minister saying the people’s parts if appropriate.

1. If, however, the minister is a Deacon, he performs his proper functions (cf. nos. 171-186) and likewise carries out the other parts, that is, those of the people.
2. Mass should not be celebrated without a minister, or at least one of the faithful, except for a just and reasonable cause. In this case, the greetings, the instructions, and the blessing at the end of Mass are omitted.

Just and reasonable is a moderately strong bar… not insurmountable, but still.

But as for hermits, most hermits actually live in community, simply praying alone, working alone, and eating alone. They come together for the prayers of the hours and the mass.

The Carthusians are monk-hermits… and the bulk of the modern hermits!
newadvent.org/cathen/03388a.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthusian

 

[NewsTheMan]

It’s not permitted to say the mass without at least one other person, except in special circumstances.
Just and reasonable is a moderately strong bar… not insurmountable, but still.

Just and reasonable in today’s Catholic climate means “whenever I feel like it” sadly.

But as for hermits, most hermits actually live in community, simply praying alone, working alone, and eating alone. They come together for the prayers of the hours and the mass.

I mean hermits, the Carthusians are special. Hermits like that Priest who lives in a hermitage in America somewhere. There are a few special ones.

 

[Big_Feet]

Just and reasonable in today’s Catholic climate means “whenever I feel like it” sadly.

Again, you are projecting your opinions and limited experiences on the whole of the rest of the Church. There are plenty of faithful out there who ardently try to follow the rules of the Church as best they can and know how to.

I mean hermits, the Carthusians are special. Hermits like that Priest who lives in a hermitage in America somewhere. There are a few special ones.

So…the whole order of the Carthusians are “special” or unusual, but the one “Hermit…who lives in a hermitage in America somewhere” is the common one.
I think you have it backwards, sir.

 

[NewsTheMan]

So…the whole order of the Carthusians are “special” or unusual, but the one “Hermit…who lives in a hermitage in America somewhere” is the common one.I think you have it backwards, sir.

I was being charitable. Carthusians are not hermits. They are enclosed monastics living in accordance with the rule of St. Bruno. They may be described perhaps as an order of hermits living in community. But I was not speaking about that. I was speaking of hermits. I responded charitably because someone was contradicting me as if to help me (or perhaps, not help me) but wasn’t on the same point as I was.

 

[Aramis]

I was being charitable. Carthusians are not hermits. They are enclosed monastics living in accordance with the rule of St. Bruno. They may be described perhaps as an order of hermits living in community. But I was not speaking about that. I was speaking of hermits. I responded charitably because someone was contradicting me as if to help me (or perhaps, not help me) but wasn’t on the same point as I was.

Throughout the history of the church, hermits seldom truly live alone, and priest-hermits almost never do.

The Carthusians are typical of hermits - each works and prays alone, save for the public prayer of the church.

 

[Aeolian]

What way? Of course I speak frankly in important matters. I have not been rude. I type economically, and quickly, and to get my point across.

This is the second time (postings #37 and #44) that you have been insulted me on this thread. If you are actually discerning the priesthood I would advise you to review this entire thread with your spiritual adviser. If you truly don’t realize that you’re being rude then you’re headed for some difficult times.

FWIW, Fr. Z, etc. have no more authority than you or I do in the Church when it comes to stuff like this, meaning he has absolutely none. And despite his moniker “What Does The Prayer Really Say? Slavishly accurate liturgical translations & frank commentary on Catholic issues” he has no more ability to ascertain what the prayer really says than I do.

 

[TrueLight]

FWIW, Fr. Z, etc. have no more authority than you or I do in the Church when it comes to stuff like this, meaning he has absolutely none. And despite his moniker “What Does The Prayer Really Say? Slavishly accurate liturgical translations & frank commentary on Catholic issues” he has no more ability to ascertain what the prayer really says than I do.

I don’t know if you attended seminary or if you have a liturgical background, but I would think as any priest does, he has a little more education/training in theology/liturgy.

 

[Aeolian]

I don’t know if you attended seminary or if you have a liturgical background, but I would think as any priest does, he has a little more education/training in theology/liturgy.

I said authority.

 

[GwenL]

No it isn’t. Priests do it all the time, there are even specific rubrics for it. Go look it up. Ask a priest. You are blatantly lying right now - though I assume it is ignorance rather than spitefulness.

I mean, what do you think hermits do?

Anyway, this is becoming farcical. I thank you all for being patient with me, I think all that needs to be said has been said.

This is pretty harsh. You are discerning the priesthood? You are calling someone a blatant liar, which means that you know their purpose and motive? Across an internet forum? Might it be possible, in your view, that the poster made a mistake? Or even more possible, that the poster is correct?

Per Catholic theology, the priest NEVER celebrates Mass alone. They are always in the company of the angels and the saints. If you think that’s a mere technicality, and that the angels and saints don’t count, you might consider praying a bit more about what the Mass really is. Also, celebrating Mass without a congregation (or at least one minister) is very unusual and very discouraged, especially in a parish setting.

Also, regarding hand-holding and the Orans posture during the Our Father. I don’t do it and don’t like it. But I don’t see where it’s been discouraged by the Church. The ZENIT link you posted says precisely that–it has not been discouraged. (The link also says that it should not be required or encouraged.)

I think Aeolian has some good points. If you are for “say the black and do the red” you should be consistent. If you don’t want the priest ad-libbing about pet peeves, he should not be ad-libbing about anything. If you don’t want the congregation to adopt postures and gestures that are not in the rubrics, be consistent across the board. Otherwise you are just another opinion. And we all know what those are worth–exactly what you pay for them.

 

[TheMc]

FWIW, Fr. Z, etc. have no more authority than you or I do in the Church when it comes to stuff like this, meaning he has absolutely none. And despite his moniker “What Does The Prayer Really Say? Slavishly accurate liturgical translations & frank commentary on Catholic issues” he has no more ability to ascertain what the prayer really says than I do.

Just a question: are you a latin expert? Do you know latin? How many years of theology do you have under your belt?

I’m not saying you don’t have either, but I’m just curious.

 

[NewsTheMan]

This is the second time (postings #37 and #44) that you have been insulted me on this thread.

Please, use the report button if I have broken rules or insulted you.

I sincerely do apologize if I have offended you, but not once have I attacked you as a person, merely your posts. I cannot say that I have had the same treatment - but that is fine, because we are discussing frank issues here. Nothing is personal, I keep that in mind. One can never get tone across in a discussion forum - if you read my posts in a different light or from a neutral position you may see that.

If you are actually discerning the priesthood I would advise you to review this entire thread with your spiritual adviser.

Thank you, I honestly appreciate the kind concern. If my spiritual adviser asks me if I have offended anybody, I will let him know that I unwittingly did so over the internet.

If you truly don’t realize that you’re being rude then you’re headed for some difficult times.

I am an imperfect sinner, it is true. I only pray that Jesus came to my assistance at those difficult times.

FWIW, Fr. Z, etc. have no more authority than you or I do in the Church when it comes to stuff like this, meaning he has absolutely none.

That is simply not true. You have just as much authority as a Priest? Since when? You are not even included in the hierarchy. He is. You cannot take hold of a parish. He can. You have not had 7 years of training and almost a lifetime of studying. He has. Look, you don’t have to take these priests’ word for it - but I only wanted to give you an outside source so that you don’t turn around and tell me that “this is all just your opinion man”. Do we not often say on these boards, “discuss it with your priest”? Does not Father Vincent Serpa hold a mighty weight here because of his priesthood? If we cannot go to our priests who do we go to? These are respected priests in their field - more than you and I could ever say.

And despite his moniker “What Does The Prayer Really Say? Slavishly accurate liturgical translations & frank commentary on Catholic issues” he has no more ability to ascertain what the prayer really says than I do.

Well, I don’t know about you, but I have had little to no training in Latin or Classics nor in Pastoral theology. Maybe you should send him an email for creating a misleading blog, because he is very popular and even Bishops come to him for liturgical matters.

This is pretty harsh. You are discerning the priesthood? You are calling someone a blatant liar, which means that you know their purpose and motive?

Why does my discerning keep coming up? Are people trying to guilt me into thinking that if I speak frankly or perhaps not as kindly as I should that I am an imperfect sinner undeserving of a vocation? Well, imagine that. I already know that. Now please, less about me as a person and my character.

Did you not read my post there? I said they may be lying out of ignorance. Maybe that was poor wording, but it still remains an untruth.

Per Catholic theology, the priest NEVER celebrates Mass alone. They are always in the company of the angels and the saints. If you think that’s a mere technicality, and that the angels and saints don’t count, you might consider praying a bit more about what the Mass really is. Also, celebrating Mass without a congregation (or at least one minister) is very unusual and very discouraged, especially in a parish setting.

You know very, very well that we were speaking about the laity in the pews and not the Church Triumphant.

I think Aeolian has some good points. If you are for “say the black and do the red” you should be consistent. If you don’t want the priest ad-libbing about pet peeves, he should not be ad-libbing about anything. If you don’t want the congregation to adopt postures and gestures that are not in the rubrics, be consistent across the board. Otherwise you are just another opinion. And we all know what those are worth–exactly what you pay for them.

Again, you are misunderstanding my own points. Bowing of the head as a sign of reverence towards God is not an addition to the rubrics. Not any more so than scratching ones ear during Mass. It is a personal, individual movement, oriented towards God, that is actually prescribed if you read the GIRM number I quoted. Nobody here has even been talking about the priest ad-libbing, only about the difference or similarity between holding hands during the Our Father, and between a bow of the head during the elevation.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Actually none of them are directed by the rubrics for the OF Mass. All are additions. All are harmless enough if not done in a showboaty/artificially pious manner meant to bring attention to the individual. To embrace some of the additions while rejecting others however reflects very poorly on the individual.

I’ll also add that when someone embraces/executes the acts/comments discussed in this thread AND THEN tries to attack things like the orans and holding hands, their voices are necessarily attenuated.

We are supposed to view all things that came from Vatican II in the light of tradition! Some of the documents of Vatican II and the GIRM are not specific, for example with the ringing of bells at Mass. We put it into context with tradition to know specifically what to do. Holding hands during the Our Father is a post-vatican II invention that is not traditional and is discouraged. When people change the context of the GIRM and the documents of Vatican II from the light of tradition to whatever they want, we get all sorts of creations, experimentations and abuses.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Well the GIRM assumes we will be looking at the Host and the Chalice at elevation. After that, it is merely a traditional ‘pious practice’ that people are taught to do. I can’t find anything at the moment, but it has to be in somewhere.

There are no authoritative documents or writings that specifically endorse what you are saying, why is that? Because we are supposed to be looking at the GIRM and the documents of Vatican II in the light of tradition. It sort of reminds me of Sola Scriptura as a metaphor… 'If it aint instructed or discouraged specifically in the GIRM, then we can/don’t do it". Look at it through Scripture and Tradition, looking at the GIRM through the lens/light of tradition. By doing this, we see that we are supposed to continue the practice of adoring the elevated Host and Chalice.

 

[Aeolian]

…I think Aeolian has some good points. If you are for “say the black and do the red” you should be consistent. If you don’t want the priest ad-libbing about pet peeves, he should not be ad-libbing about anything. If you don’t want the congregation to adopt postures and gestures that are not in the rubrics, be consistent across the board. Otherwise you are just another opinion. And we all know what those are worth–exactly what you pay for them.

Sublime…

And if you champion some additions while denigrating others your opinion will have less than zero value. It will be viewed as being negative by most people I suspect.