Does anyone else have a problem with "Maryology"?

[justasking4]

Proof: Right here: catholicapologetics.org/ap070100.htm

In heaven, God, angels and his saints are outside time and space. They are not limited like we are.

Let the Scriptures teach us in its contexts. The problem with using the various passages here to support catholic doctrines is that it does violence to the Scriptures. In other words, it tries to make the Scriptures say what it does not.

 

[NotWorthy]

OK, justasking, your quotes are hard to answer for they are imbedded in my quotes, which don’t follow through on the “Quote” button. With that being said:

Do you have some Scripture to support this? I’m not aware of what the “conditions” of heaven are like.

What did God invent in the 6 days of Creation? Time (among other things). Didn’t the angels and heaven precede this? Wouldn’t that mean that heaven, being created outside the boundaries of time, wouldn’t be constrained by time?

Again this is speculation. Scripture never teaches or exhorts anyone to pray to Mary or anyone besides God.

In the story of 2nd Kings, when Bathsheba, the queen mother, approaches Solomon with petitions from Abinijah, Solomon tells her to request anything, “for he cannot refuse her”. Bathsheba, in this role of Gebira, prefigures the role of the Gebira of the New Israel, Mary, the Queen Mother of God.

This doesn’t help. Since we are never to pray to anyone but God, such prayers are without effect. Would you find it good that millions of others are praying to their gods? Would you consider those prayers powerful?

You mistakenly assume that Catholics pray to Mary as a god. This is incorrect.

Instead, we are simply following in our prayers (whether in the Rosary or especially in the Mass - the ultimate form of prayer) what Jesus is asking, “Father, may they be one, as you and I are one” (paraphrasing).

If you mean those in Christ in this world i would agree. Trying to say this also includes those who have died, i would not. Scripture does not make this claim nor should we.

If someone in this world is part of the Body of Christ, where does Scripture say that death removes them from the Body of Christ.

Instead, I think St. Paul claims that not even death can separate us from God.

 

[justasking4]

As a Christian I can ask my family both alive or in heaven to pray for me. In death the soul detaches from the body. While our bodies may not live forever our souls are eternal. Just because my grandmother dies it doesn’t mean she stops being part of my family. We are the body of Christ all of us both living and the non-living. All of our souls. I ask Saint Joseph for his prayers for my earthly father and my husband. He is the patron saint of fathers. As I may ask Saint Monica for her prayers for my children. She prayed for 17 years for the conversion of her son. He grew up to be a priest, a bishop, one of the Early Church Fathers then a saint. Saint Augustine of Hippo.

1 Tim 2:1
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone

Have you looked at the contexts for these verses? It is for the living here in this world and not about someone who has died. Once someone dies, they have no more to do with this world. The only prayers we should pray are to God. It is the Lord Jesus Who intercedes for us and no other. He alone is sufficent for all our needs. It is proper though for those in this world to pray for each other but not it is not for those who have died.

 

[NotWorthy]

It is proper though for those in this world to pray for each other but not it is not for those who have died.

Where does it say this?

Instead, I see in 2nd Maccabees that it is proper to pray for the dead.

 

[LilyM]

Where does it say this?

Instead, I see in 2nd Maccabees that it is proper to pray for the dead.

NW, if justasking isn’t Catholic it’s quite possible that he or she has neve READ 2nd Maccabees - it’s one of the books the KJV doesn’t have.

 

[NotWorthy]

NW, if justasking isn’t Catholic it’s quite possible that he or she has neve READ 2nd Maccabees - it’s one of the books the KJV doesn’t have.

Yes, but it still reflects a belief of the First born children of God, the Israelites. Also, there are some Catholics who don’t know this answer. My answer is for them as well.

But, in the meantime, if we’re going to play the Protestant Game of “Where is that in the Bible”, I’m going go show them where in the Bible it’s found. I assumed they meant the Scriptures that has been accepted by the Christian Church for the last 1600 years, not some “newer version”.

It’s their choice to trust in the Church or not. I prefer to follow what Jesus taught about obedience, though.

 

[Odell]

Have you looked at the contexts for these verses? It is for the living here in this world and not about someone who has died. Once someone dies, they have no more to do with this world. The only prayers we should pray are to God. It is the Lord Jesus Who intercedes for us and no other. He alone is sufficent for all our needs. It is proper though for those in this world to pray for each other but not it is not for those who have died.

Prayer = request.

Do you have a problem with me praying to you?

Most people cant get over the definition of prayer the meaning of the word has changed threw the year kind of like gay its meaning today is different then what it used to be.

William Shakespeare said this

I pray thee cease thy counsel,
Which falls into mine ears as profitless
as water in a sieve.

And Not all the verses that are quoted are in this life
he did give you this verse

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

I request Pray to my angel do you?

dont tell me you cant.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

www.scripturecatholic.com

If you have a problem with this then you have a problem with the early Church fathers.

 

[justasking4]

OK, justasking, your quotes are hard to answer for they are imbedded in my quotes, which don’t follow through on the “Quote” button. With that being said:

What did God invent in the 6 days of Creation? Time (among other things). Didn’t the angels and heaven precede this? Wouldn’t that mean that heaven, being created outside the boundaries of time, wouldn’t be constrained by time?

 

[justasking4]

Prayer = request.

Do you have a problem with me praying to you?

Not so. I have a problem with the way your church tries to use the Scriptures to say things it does not.
If the church fathers interpreted these passages this way, then they are mistaken.

 

[JoeyWarren]

My husband and I are considering converting to Catholicism, but he is having a hard time with “Maryology”. He tells me that he wants to worship Jesus and not go to a “middleman”… Any suggestions???

No Catholic is obligated to go to a middleman. You can be Catholic and never ask Mary to help you pray for something. You are required to believe that is okay to ask the saints. You are not required to actually do it. It’s optional, not mandatory.

But who in their right mind would not want the extra prayers by those that have the ability to offer prayers continually and unceasingly. We don’t have that luxury. We have to work, eat, and sleep, those in heaven I believe don’t have the need for those things.

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t know. the Scriptrues don’t really tell us when heaven was created or the nature of it in this regards. When was the Devil kicked out of Heaven? Wasn’t it prior to Creation for him to already be around during Creation?

Do any OT writers ever refer to mother of the messiah like this? I misunderstand this question.

Do you mean do the OT writers refer to the mother of the king like this? Yes, Jeremiah is told by God to speak to the King and his Queen mother.

Do you mean any of the NT writers? Well, yes. John does in Revelation. You just refuse to believe that the woman in 12 is Mary, even though the child born is obviously Jesus.

Do any NT writers ever claim that Mary prefigures the New Israel or that she is the queen mother of God? What you find is that the Scriptures never refer to Mary in this way.

I didn’t know all of “Typology” is explained in Scripture. Where does Scripture tell us this. I do know that the Early Church taught it. And it is evidenced (from how they handled heretical teaching) that the Early Church Fathers were quick to dispute false teachings, that this was taught since the earliest of times.

For Mary to do what your church claims were require god-like powers. To hear and answer millions of prayers from catholics would require such powers. Again, the Scriptures never describe the condition of the after life like this.For the Church to trust that Mary is working in full communion with Jesus as a part of the Body of Christ is one of the beautiful teachings of the Church that I would sorely miss if I ever left Her (the Church, that is).

It is one of the biggest things I find lacking in other faiths, behind the Eucharist and Penance.

I don’t see how this follows. Can you clarify?Jesus prayed that His Followers would be “as One” as He (Jesus) and His Father are one.

What is the greatest sign of unity? To pray together as a community. Just think - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, there is a Mass going on. During the Mass, the congregation actually joins with the choirs of angels who sing “Holy, Holy, Holy” as shown in Isaiah and Revelation. The veil that is torn at the end of the Gospels, remains lifted in the Mass. What unity!!!

Regarding the Rosary, the same is true. There are 1000’s of rosaries being said at any minute of the day world-wide. Just think, 1000’s of people meditating on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

That’s unity!!!

The Scriptures themselves tells us that there is a great chasm between the living and dead. Jesus makes this point in Luke 16:19-31. See especially verse 26.

I’lll check it out and get back to you.

The passage is in Romans 8. Here it is
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
”37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice the separation is not from each other but from the love of God. Its says nothing about the relationship between the living and dead.

But look at the words. While we have the Love of God, we are participating in the Body of Christ. Death will not separate us from this love. It brings us more fully in communion with Him!!!

 

[LilyM]

Do any OT writers ever refer to mother of the messiah like this? Do any NT writers ever claim that Mary prefigures the New Israel or that she is the queen mother of God? What you find is that the Scriptures never refer to Mary in this way.

They don’t HAVE to. If I say that you are married do I then need to EXPLICITLY say that the person you are married to is called your ‘wife’ or ‘husband’ ??? And that your spouse has influence in your affairs by the mere fact of being married to you? How can they not?

Neither does anyone NEED to explicitly say that the mother of a King is called the Queen Mother and has a role in the King’s affairs BY THE MERE FACT that her son is the King - people inevitably ask her for favours, as the mother of any important person is asked. And she inevitably tells them to the King, who listens to her, as any son does to his mother. And. I’m assuming that you don’t live in a monarchy. If you lived in one, as I do, you’d know all this.

Jesus is King of Heaven. He is not dead, neither is Mary. God is God of the living, all those who follow him faithfully are ALIVE. Jesus specifically says that Abraham Isaac and Jacob are LIVING. So is Mary. Being that both Jesus and Mary are still alive, she is still his mother and still AUTOMATICALLY Queen Mother in heaven. That never stops. My grandmother, even though she died five years ago, is still my grandmother.

For Mary to do what your church claims were require god-like powers. To hear and answer millions of prayers from catholics would require such powers. Again, the Scriptures never describe the condition of the after life like this.

She hears them, relays them to God. God answers them. Exactly like you hear of my needs, you pray to God for me, God answers both our prayers and helps me.

The number of people she sees or hears matters not a bit. If John in Revelation could be granted the gift to see and hear everyone in heaven, on earth and under the earth all at once, then so can Mary.

The Scriptures themselves tells us that there is a great chasm between the living and dead. Jesus makes this point in Luke 16:19-31. See especially verse 26.

No - the chasm is between those in hell (as the rich man was) and those in heaven, or whatever abode of the righteous Abraham and Lazarus were in. Not between the living and the dead.

Notice - the rich man first asks Lazarus to come to HIM in Hell and relieve his suffering. THAT is when Abraham says ‘between US is a chasm’. Between the rich man on one side and Abraham and Lazarus on the other, not between Abraham or Lazarus and the living.

When the rich man then asks for Lazarus to go to his LIVING relatives, all Abraham says is that they wouldn’t believe him if he did go, not that he CAN’T go.

 

[whatevergirl]

My husband and I are considering converting to Catholicism, but he is having a hard time with “Maryology”. He tells me that he wants to worship Jesus and not go to a “middleman”… Any suggestions???

Well…first, Mary would be a middle-woman. lol Ok…just some levity.

Mary is Jesus’ mother…and we ask her to pray for us. With us. We do not expect her to answer our prayers…but instead, to join with us in a chain of prayer, so to speak. I often say after the Rosary…‘thank you Mary, for being my family. For praying with me tonight.’

We do not worship her…we look up to her though, as the most powerful (spritually speaking) mortal if you will, that walked the earth. A mortal who always followed God’s will. She offers great consolation, and comfort…and she is a wonderful icon for women, in addition to Christ.

 

[Greg27]

It might be useful to point out to your husband Marian devotions are not required for the practicing Catholic. I see no need to make devotions to Mary besides the usual prayers or mentions of her during Mass. Also Mary is only a creature, though with other saints in Glory, and is in no way ‘divine’ as Jesus is by nature. For many Catholics Marian devotions are a part of their faith, but not for others.

 

[zemi]

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Regarding Luke 11:27-28, the word for rather in Greek is “menounge” (v.28) which means “yes, but in addition to” or “further.” Thus, Jesus is saying “Yes, my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” Paul uses the same Greek word in Phil 3:7-8: “Indeed” I count everything as loss…In verse 8, menounge means “yes, in addition to the losses” Paul describes in verse 7. So this verse does nothing to diminish Mary. It shocks me to see how Protestants try to diminish the Mother of God. They obviously don’t love Mary like Jesus loves Mary.

scripturecatholic.com/mary_qa.html

 

[justasking4]

It might be useful to point out to your husband Marian devotions are not required for the practicing Catholic. I see no need to make devotions to Mary besides the usual prayers or mentions of her during Mass. Also Mary is only a creature, though with other saints in Glory, and is in no way ‘divine’ as Jesus is by nature. For many Catholics Marian devotions are a part of their faith, but not for others.

Is it not true that all catholics must believe what the church teaches about her and to deny this is to fall away completely from the divine and Catholic faith…?

 

[Church_Militant]

Is it not true that all catholics must believe what the church teaches about her and to deny this is to fall away completely from the divine and Catholic faith…?

To deny it , yes. To question it, no, though they have the responsibility to study to show themselves approved unto God.

 

[justasking4]

To deny it , yes. To question it, no, though they have the responsibility to study to show themselves approved unto God.

What do you do if your questions and study lead you to deny it or tell you that this is false?

 

[justasking4]

QUOTE=LilyM;2326270]They don’t HAVE to. If I say that you are married do I then need to EXPLICITLY say that the person you are married to is called your ‘wife’ or ‘husband’ ??? And that your spouse has influence in your affairs by the mere fact of being married to you? How can they not?

So we agree that the Scriptures never refer to her like this? Since this is the case, your church goes beyond what is written and speculates.

Neither does anyone NEED to explicitly say that the mother of a King is called the Queen Mother and has a role in the King’s affairs BY THE MERE FACT that her son is the King - people inevitably ask her for favours, as the mother of any important person is asked. And she inevitably tells them to the King, who listens to her, as any son does to his mother. And. I’m assuming that you don’t live in a monarchy. If you lived in one, as I do, you’d know all this.

Does Jesus ever refer to Mary as His queen?
How does He address her in the gospels?

Jesus is King of Heaven. He is not dead, neither is Mary. God is God of the living, all those who follow him faithfully are ALIVE. Jesus specifically says that Abraham Isaac and Jacob are LIVING. So is Mary. Being that both Jesus and Mary are still alive, she is still his mother and still AUTOMATICALLY Queen Mother in heaven. That never stops. My grandmother, even though she died five years ago, is still my grandmother.

You must assume that Mary is queen in heaven without any evidence from Scripture. The Scriptures never speak of her in this manner.

She hears them, relays them to God. God answers them. Exactly like you hear of my needs, you pray to God for me, God answers both our prayers and helps me.

The number of people she sees or hears matters not a bit. If John in Revelation could be granted the gift to see and hear everyone in heaven, on earth and under the earth all at once, then so can Mary.

Again, more specualtion. Just becasue something is being described in one context doesn’t mean its true here.

No - the chasm is between those in hell (as the rich man was) and those in heaven, or whatever abode of the righteous Abraham and Lazarus were in. Not between the living and the dead.

Do you have chapter and verse for this? I’m not aware of any teaching in Scripture that says this kind of thing i.e. the dead can hear our prayers.

Notice - the rich man first asks Lazarus to come to HIM in Hell and relieve his suffering. THAT is when Abraham says ‘between US is a chasm’. Between the rich man on one side and Abraham and Lazarus on the other, not between Abraham or Lazarus and the living.

When the rich man then asks for Lazarus to go to his LIVING relatives, all Abraham says is that they wouldn’t believe him if he did go, not that he CAN’T go.

What is Jesus teaching here? What was His primary aim in this passage?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Reopened after pruning and split. New Thread here.

Remain on topic or thread will be closed and infractions issued as per the Forum Rules.
MF