Does anyone else have a problem with "Maryology"?

[Good_Fella]

How do you get all this out of Galatians 4? There is nothing in this verse or in the entire book of Galatians about Eve.

This is amazing. Did any OT prophet ever mention anything like this?

Does any NT writer?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

Does Eve have to be spelled out for you in black print, E-v-e?

An Old Testament prophet didn’t write any letter to the Galatians.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Good_Fella]

The church may say that someone else besides Christ is sinless but that does not mean its so. The scriptures certainly don’t.

The angel Gabriel wouldn’t agree with you.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[JoeyWarren]

Quoting Tomster:

As some non-Catholics ought to like proofs from Scripture we give the following as a proof for the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed.” The meaning of this text according to all the Fathers and ancient interpreters, and the proof drawn from it would be as follows. The serpent is Satan, the woman is Mary the mother of the Redeemer and the seed of the woman is Jesus Christ. In this text there is said to be the same identity and of enmity between the woman and the serpent as between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. But the enmity that exists between Christ (the seed of the woman) and the seed of the serpent is absolute. Therefore so too is the enmity between Mary and the devil; but if she were in sin for any length of time this could not be so. Christ and Mary are joined in the same enmity against the devil, but if she were subject to the poison of sin this would not be so on her part.

I will give the same argument in other words. The enmity which exists between Christ and the devil is perpetual and excludes sin of every kind. But in this passage of Scripture the same enmity is is declared to exist between the woman (the Blessed Virgin) and the serpent (that is Satan). Therefore it follows that there must be a perpetual enmity between the Blessed Virgin and the devil, and this could not be if she were subject to sin of any kind.

 

[love4mary]

I totally and completely Love my Blessed Mother Mary.

Mary is my example of perfect motherhood and I am always asking her to help ME be a better mother to my son’s.

Mary is my example of being a perfect Christian as I ask her to help me follow Christ like she did.

Mary lead me away from Atheism right into the loving arms of her Son, my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The bible is a wonderful tool of learning, but sometimes we need to close the book and step back and just meditate on the beauty of our Lady and what she means to All Christians. Think about the relationship between mother and son and realize that Mary, as the most Perfect mother would/could never do anything that would bring harm to her Son. She would/could/never even want to turn anyone away from Jesus, why would she?

Just love Mary for who she is and allow the Holy Spirit to clear up any misunderstandings or doubts.

Go to Mary and she will take you by the hand and lead you straight to Jesus.

 

[JoeyWarren]

:extrahappy:

 

[richwmiller]

Prayer is worship.Prayer is a SPIRITUAL SACRIFICE.

Prayer is not worship. Prayer is not a SPIRITUAL SACRIFICE.
You have a protestant view of prayer.
Therefore you think anyone who prays is worshipping.
Prayer is building a relationship.
Why did Jesus Pray? To maintain his relationship with his Father!

When we pray to God there are four aspects of Prayer.
A-Adoration or worship
C-contrition or sorrow for our sins
T-thanksgiving, give thanks
S-supplication, asking , requests

In prayer, in communication, we must also be quiet to listen to the response. Sometimes this is more important than our verbal prayer. We must be quiet to listen.

Most often we carry on a monologue and don’t wait for the response.

I almost converted to Catholicism but this was something that kept me away as well.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Jesus is man. Mary gave birth to Jesus the God-man. Mary is the mother of Jesus the God-man. Jesus is one person with two natures. Mary is the mother of the Person Jesus. Mary is the Mother of God.
AS Jesus’ mother we should honor her.

Can you imagine just ignoring the mother of God?
How could this please Jesus? Who wants to insult his mother? Who wants ignore their mother?
What are the greatest insults? -always about your mother!!
Praise the mother. Praise the Son.

Jesus wants this. He knows well the commandment to honor your father and mother.

Mary is the Jewish Queen mother. She is powerful and important in the kingdom.
Mary isn’t hung up on her queenship. She always leads to her Son. She always says as at Cana “Do what he tells you”

 

[JoeyWarren]

Why did Jesus Pray? To maintain his relationship with his Father!

I would add to this.

If prayer is worship, then Jesus was worshipping himself…even pagans would find this concept a bit out of whack…

 

[sandusky]

I would add to this.

If prayer is worship, then Jesus was worshipping himself…

You are saying that by praying to the Father, Jesus is worshipping Himself?

That denies the trinity.

 

[richwmiller]

You are saying that by praying to the Father, Jesus is worshipping Himself?

That denies the trinity.

That brings up an interesting question. Do/Can the persons of the trinity worship each other?

 

[richwmiller]

He tells me that he wants to worship Jesus and not go to a “middleman”… Any suggestions???

Go ahead and worship Jesus. Don’t forget the Father and the Spirit.
Who is this middleman?
Mary?
Mary is the mother of Jesus. How can honoring her affect Jesus other than make him proud of his mother. Do you think Jesus is jealous of his mother?
Remember “All generations will call me blessed”
Middleman? We don’t worship Mary. We honor her.
Prayer is not worship. Prayer is communication- a relationship.
We speak to Mary for help. She leads us to Jesus. We learn from Mary (and all the saints) how to get to Jesus.
So to speak, Mary knows what kind of cookies Jesus likes. Mary knows what his favorite things are. Who knows Jesus better than Mary? Who can lead us to Jesus better than Mary?

Mary is our heavenly mother.

 

[JoeyWarren]

You are saying that by praying to the Father, Jesus is worshipping Himself?

That denies the trinity.

Yes it does. Jesus was fully God as much as he was fully Man. So for Jesus to pray to his father and he and the father are one, then Jesus is worshipping himself.

So we need a safe way out and the only possible way is to affirm that prayer is not worshipl

So therefore prayer is not the same as worship? Right?

 

[kaycee]

Go ahead and worship Jesus. Don’t forget the Father and the Spirit.
Who is this middleman?
Mary?
Mary is the mother of Jesus. How can honoring her affect Jesus other than make him proud of his mother. Do you think Jesus is jealous of his mother?
Remember “All generations will call me blessed”
Middleman? We don’t worship Mary. We honor her.
Prayer is not worship. Prayer is communication- a relationship.
We speak to Mary for help. She leads us to Jesus. We learn from Mary (and all the saints) how to get to Jesus.
So to speak, Mary knows what kind of cookies Jesus likes. Mary knows what his favorite things are. Who knows Jesus better than Mary? Who can lead us to Jesus better than Mary?

Mary is our heavenly mother.

We have access directly to the Father and we are told to boldy come before Him.

Praying thru Mary is to get to Jesus or God is against Scripture.

 

[richwmiller]

Sorry, but your wrong on this, Martin Luther did have a problem with Maryian devotion.

What is your source?
Mine is:
chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_5.htm
Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary by Dave Armstrong
Check out this page for about a hundred wonderful papers on Mary.

socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/mary-blessed-virgin-index-page.html

and from a Lutheran view
Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary has recently been emphasized in a number of Lutheran publications, including the Lutheran Quarterly and Lutheran Forum. Lutheran Forum about a year ago published Luther’s expanded confession on the the Apostle’s Creed that focuses on his confession of Mary.

What protestant hear when Catholics talk of Mary.

Protestants, particularly those in evangelical denominations . . . have been raised to regard any sort of veneration as idolatry . . . Mary is mentioned in Protestant churches only during Christmastime, in reference to the manger of Bethlehem, and perhaps occasionally at Easter . . . she has no special role to play in the Christian story . . . Many of the dogmas of the Catholic Church, while profound and vigorous spiritual truths, are couched in technical theological language that sounds quite bizarre to Protestant ears. Here is what your Protestant friend may be hearing when you try to explain the Blessed Virgin the way she was explained to you:

The Catholic says: Mary is ever-virgin.
The Protestant hears: Mary is a pagan earth-goddess. (The non-Catholic remembers the vestal virgins of Rome.)

The Catholic says: Mary was conceived without sin.
The Protestant hears: Mary is the equal of Jesus. (He remembers that Jesus was sinless.)

The Catholic says: Mary was assumed into heaven.
The Protestant hears: Mary is the equal of Jesus. (He remembers that Jesus ascended into heaven.)

The Catholic says: Mary is Co-Redemptrix.
The Protestant hears: We don't feel that Jesus is adequate for salvation.

The Catholic says: Mary is our intercessor.
The Protestant hears: We don't believe that Jesus can do it all.

The Catholic says: Mary is the Mother of God.
The Protestant hears: Mary gave birth to God the Father. (He uses the word "God" to refer only to God the Father.)

The Catholic says: Mary is the Queen of Heaven.
The Protestant hears: Mary is God's wife. (Since God is the King of Heaven, Mary must be His wife.)

These interpretations may sound ludicrous and blasphemous, but they are exactly how your Protestant friend will interpret your words. Raised in a world without saints, he cannot conceive of spiritual contact with anyone but a god. You will leave him with the unfortunate misconception that Mary is the chief goddess of a Roman Catholic pantheon, and that Jesus has a minor, almost negligible, role in the Catholic plan of salvation . . .

("Introducing Mary to Protestants," in The Catholic Answer Book of Mary, edited by Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, Huntington, IN: Our Sunday Visitor, 2000; 88-91; quote from 88-89)

 

[richwmiller]

We have access directly to the Father and we are told to boldy come before Him.

So now you have done away with Jesus too!

Praying thru Mary is to get to Jesus or God is against Scripture.

You are hung up on this middleman stuff.
Can I ask you to pray for me? Then you are a middleman!
I ask Mary to help me get closer to her Son. I ask Mary to show me how to get closer to Her Son. Mary takes any devotion to her and says “Go to my Son!”
Mary always leads to her Son.
In the East you never see icons of Mary alone. She is always with her Son.
Unfortunately this is not the case in the West.

 

[sandusky]

Yes it does. Jesus was fully God as much as he was fully Man. So for Jesus to pray to his father and he and the father are one, then Jesus is worshipping himself.

So we need a safe way out and the only possible way is to affirm that prayer is not worshipl

So therefore prayer is not the same as worship? Right?

Jesus and the Father are two distinct “persons.” Right?

So Jesus praying to the Father is not the same as Jesus praying to Himself; He is aware of the distinction.

Prayer is worship.

 

[richwmiller]

Jesus and the Father are two distinct “persons.” Right?

So Jesus praying to the Father is not the same as Jesus praying to Himself; He is aware of the distinction.

Prayer is worship.

Prayer is only a word. We mean one thing and you mean another. There is no communication.

I highly recommend reading the Catechism starting at section 2558. Get the whole scriptural based background and a feel for what we are talking about.

Prayer to protestants means worship but not to Catholics. Read how we think about prayer.

The discussion on prayer talks about many aspects prayer to God, prayer to and with Mary, prayer to the saints.
Read about it before you decide our prayer is worship. I understand why you think that. It is the protestant tradition and culture. Now learn our tradition and culture which is also scripture based.
Here is a link to the searchable catechism
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
enter 2558
then look for the link " Enter the CCC at this paragraph"

 

[richwmiller]

How can this be? Take the assumption. There is no mention of it in Scripture. Or take the idea that she was sinless or saved from sinning. That idea is also without any foundation in the Scriptures. There is not one verse in Scripture that supports this kind of thing.

All Catholic teaching is based on scripture. Some of Catholic teaching is more explicit and spelled out.
The two hardest for scripture only people to understand are the teachings about Mary because they are not explicit but implied.

Go to the Catholic answers main page and on the left is a list of topics pick Library-Mary and the saints and list of topics relating to Mary and the saints appears. Pick the one you are most interested in and read away.
catholic.com/

or go directly to the Mary and the saints list
catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

 

[justasking4]

Historically you are correct, but form a biblical standpoint you are not correct. Do you remember the directive issued to slaves?

Are you referring to how they are to be treated?

 

[justasking4]

All Catholic teaching is based on scripture. Some of Catholic teaching is more explicit and spelled out.
The two hardest for scripture only people to understand are the teachings about Mary because they are not explicit but implied.

Go to the Catholic answers main page and on the left is a list of topics pick Library-Mary and the saints and list of topics relating to Mary and the saints appears. Pick the one you are most interested in and read away.
catholic.com/

or go directly to the Mary and the saints list
catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

Since catholics use the “implicit” arguments to defend the marian doctrines, can you tell me what the “critieria” is for an implicit argument?

 

[justasking4]

Good Fella;2685397]Does Eve have to be spelled out for you in black print, E-v-e?

Maybe i missed it. How about just a reference to Eve.

An Old Testament prophet didn’t write any letter to the Galatians.

i know that. I’m speaking about Paul making a reference from it.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :