Does anyone else have a problem with "Maryology"?

[NotWorthy]

Why not? Are these not saints of the catholic church?

Well of course they are saints of the Church. Are you questioning that?

But they are not infallible.

And… I haven’t read the context. If given the context of the text, I might (and probably would) agree. But in the way that you present it (your context) I don’t hold to those statements.

Clear as mud, eh?

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking4:

I’m still having problems with exactly what “fullness of the truth” and Sacred Tradition" is. Is there a list of the “fullness of the truth” or Sacred Tradition?

If you ever bother to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church you may have a general idea what it is.

There is no list. Why do Non-Catholic Christians always insist on a list? I remember a caller from Catholic Answers Live demanding a list from Jimmy Akin to get a list of all infallible statement.

Who determines what these are and by what criteria? For example, who says that these quotes are just Catholic devotions and not part of the fullness of the truth or Sacred Tradition?

The Catholic Church determine these.

We are going to give you a course on what Sacred Tradition is.

This is straight from the Catechism:

I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

((I can’t quote them all so here is the source))

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#78

 

[Mannyfit75]

As for the Fullness of Truth. Well that is Divine Revelation. Divine Revelation is God, the Father sending his only Son to save mankind from their sins. Jesus established One Church upon Peter and Apostle and pass this down to their sucessors the bishops and popes.

Jesus is Divine Revelation. He is the source of all doctrine and dogmas of the Catholic Church.

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2696875]If you ever bother to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church you may have a general idea what it is.

I have read the section on this and it doesn’t help much. I don’t want just a general idea but also a specific one.

There is no list. Why do Non-Catholic Christians always insist on a list? I remember a caller from Catholic Answers Live demanding a list from Jimmy Akin to get a list of all infallible statement.

i would think you to would want to know what the specifics are of these claims are. What this would do is to help to determine what a tradition is or exactly what is the fullness of the truth is. Also, if you are going to use these things as a defense for the catholic faith it would be helpful to know exactly what these things are. I for one want to know what these claims are since it has been said that protestants are missing out from them.

 

[LilyM]

I have read the section on this and it doesn’t help much. I don’t want just a general idea but also a specific one.

i would think you to would want to know what the specifics are of these claims are. What this would do is to help to determine what a tradition is or exactly what is the fullness of the truth is. Also, if you are going to use these things as a defense for the catholic faith it would be helpful to know exactly what these things are. I for one want to know what these claims are since it has been said that protestants are missing out from them.

But that’s like saying ‘what is a scientific theory’ and demanding a definitive definition as well as a definitive list of every scientific theory that’s been put forward over the last 2,000 years. It simply ain’t gonna happen that you’ll find all of 'em listed in one nice neat little package for you.

Doesn’t mean science as a discipline is invalid. And it doesnt mean a person can’t be sufficiently up to date on current scientific knowledge without such a list. You have to be willing to study is all.

We DO know what we’re bound to believe - there is the Catechism for one thing, works such as one by Dr Ludwig Ott (I believe it’s called Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma or something close?) that come as close as you’ll find to a complete summary, and do a pretty good job.

Apart from that you have to study the faith - old documents that are referenced by the Catechism or Dr Ott and, new documents as they come out and such. Just as a doctor or lawyer continually has to update their knowledge and never relies on just one source but subscribes to numerous journals or what have you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have read the section on this and it doesn’t help much. I don’t want just a general idea but also a specific one.

How specific do you want. Catholic.com has numbers on tracts on Mary. You are more than welcome to read them.

i would think you to would want to know what the specifics are of these claims are. What this would do is to help to determine what a tradition is or exactly what is the fullness of the truth is. Also, if you are going to use these things as a defense for the catholic faith it would be helpful to know exactly what these things are. I for one want to know what these claims are since it has been said that protestants are missing out from them.

Sacred Tradition is the Unwritten Word of God, much like the Bible is the written Word of God. There are things in the Gospel that Jesus did that was not transmitted or written down.

The belief that Mary remain a Virgin all her life is part of the Sacred Tradition, the Belief of the Papacy of Peter.

These doctrines and dogma we believe can be tracted back to the Early Church Fathers.

I highly recommend you read Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgen. It comes in a Three Volume set.

The book contains Early Christian writings from the 1st Century all the way to the 6th Century I believe.

Nothing in Catholic dogma or doctrine is made up. Overtime, they can develop. For example, when I was a born, I was an infant. I look so much different then than I look now. Much like the Church is. Doctrine can develop overtime. Many times the Church Councils had to defined doctrine to combat heresy. So defining doctrine is part of Church’s Tradition.

 

[Good_Fella]

I came across these quotes from some of the saints of the catholic church. Is this how you would also view her?

Mary is the key to the gates of Heaven.

St. Ephrem

Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys!

St. Ambrose

God has entrusted the keys and treasures of Heaven to Mary.

St. Thomas Aquinas

No one can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate.

St. Bonaventure

This is the House of God and the Gate of Heaven.

Genesis 28:17

Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary.

St. Bernard

It depends on what the authors mean. Your problem is that you think all truth lies purely on the surface. That is why you cannot accept the fact that there is such a thing as “implicit” revelation in the scriptures. As long as you begin with the faulty major premise that revelation is strictly explicit like an event found written in a history text book, you will continue to arrive at faulty conclusions about what God is telling us. The Spirit of the word transcends the letter of the word. Catholics on this forum have presented you with spiritual “facts” countless times, but you refuse to listen because you have already decided what a spiritual fact is before even entering this site: the written word as it appears in print on paper taken exclusively on its own apparent value. It is time you start probing beneath the surface in search of true and full meanings. And stop isolating verses which must be taken in connexion with the Spirit of the entire scriptures. We know that the Bible contains implicit revelation, for Jesus told the Apostles that he would send them his Spirit to guide them in all truth and to reveal much more that is to come when the Church is ready to bear it with a mature understanding. One reason why Protestants constantly contradict themselves and the Bible in their narrow, one-dimensional interpretations of scripture is that they make God’s truth appear explicitly on the surface, although it isn’t there. Another reason is that the Spirit is not leading them in all truth. The differing and conflicting essential doctrines of the numerous Protestant denominations attest to this fact. Apart from the One true Church of Christ, these spiritual orphans only lead themselves farther away from the full truth. It is time you start listening to what Paul had to say to Timothy about being “in the way of truth.” :yup:

The Catholic Church has discerned two senses of Scripture: the literal sense and the spiritual sense. The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of scripture and discoverd by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation. All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal. In the spiritual sense, thanks to the unity of God’s plan, the text of Scripture and also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs of a less obvious spiritual fact. Thus, in an allegorical sense we can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ. And in an anagogical sense we can view scriptural events and realities in terms of their eternal significance, leading us towards our true spiritual homeland or destiny. (Cf. CCC #115-117)

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken.” (Lk 24:25)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[NotWorthy]

Good Fella, aren’t there four senses of Christ?

I seem to recall one being called anagogical (or how it related to Christ), but I can’t remember the other one. Maybe because I’m wrong?

Edited: OK, I found it. Google is so cool!

---

Traditionally, there are four senses of Scripture, which are outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 115-119:

1. ** Literal Sense: ** “[T]he meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture” (Catechism, no. 116), the actual event, person, thing described in the biblical text. The literal sense gives rise to the following three “spiritual senses.”
   2. ** Allegorical Sense: ** How those things, events, or persons in the literal sense point to Christ and the Paschal Mystery.
   3. ** Moral Sense: ** How the literal sense points to the Christian life in the Church.
   4. ** Anagogical Sense: ** How the literal sense points to the Christian’s heavenly destiny and the last things.

This comes from 4 Marks Magazine.

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella, aren’t there four senses of Christ?

I seem to recall one being called anagogical (or how it related to Christ), but I can’t remember the other one. Maybe because I’m wrong?

Edited: OK, I found it. Google is so cool!

---

This comes from 4 Marks Magazine.

The analogical sense, moral sense, and anagogical sense all fall under the Spiritual Sense. I never mentioned the moral sense because it doesn’t directly pertain to this thread.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[NotWorthy]

The analogical sense, moral sense, and anagogical sense all fall under the Spiritual Sense. I never mentioned the moral sense because it doesn’t directly pertain to this thread.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

Ahhhhhhhhhh…

I always get confused on the Literal and Spiritual, knowing that the spiritual is divided up in moral, alleghorical, and anagogical.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<My husband and I are considering converting to Catholicism, but he is having a hard time with “Maryology”. He tells me that he wants to worship Jesus and not go to a “middleman”… Any suggestions???>>

First off, the word is spelled “Mariology”. There’s only one y.

Next, Mariology is actually an extension of Christology. It’s really about Who JESUS is.

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m still having problems with exactly what “fullness of the truth” and Sacred Tradition" is. Is there a list of the “fullness of the truth” or Sacred Tradition?

Who determines what these are and by what criteria? For example, who says that these quotes are just Catholic devotions and not part of the fullness of the truth or Sacred Tradition?

The Catholic Church has 254 dogmatic statements, 110 doctrines which have yet to be solemnly defined as dogma. You may find the dogmatic statements on the following site:

www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[snowfly]

Any suggestions???

Yes… we honour Mary, we worship God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[dkoinzan]

Ask Jesus to give you the grace to love his Mother as he would like you to. Then you will have no problem with Mary, well unless you have a problem with Jesus.

 

[NonDenom]

My husband and I are considering converting to Catholicism, but he is having a hard time with “Maryology”. He tells me that he wants to worship Jesus and not go to a “middleman”… Any suggestions???

Hi
I believe that Mary herself has a big problem with Maryology. I believe she is in Heaven saying “Don’t focus on me, It’s ALL about my Son Jesus”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi
I believe that Mary herself has a big problem with Maryology. I believe she is in Heaven saying “Don’t focus on me, It’s ALL about my Son Jesus”

How do you know? Have you been visited by Mary?

In all honesty, though the approved apparition of Mary by the Catholic Church always have one message in mind that Mary had. She insist that sinners need to stop offending God, and need to convert, and pray, pray, pray.

 

[justasking4]

The Catholic Church has 254 dogmatic statements, 110 doctrines which have yet to be solemnly defined as dogma. You may find the dogmatic statements on the following site:

www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

Thank you for this. Would you happen to know the difference between doctrine and dogma?

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Ask Jesus to give you the grace to love his Mother as he would like you to. Then you will have no problem with Mary, well unless you have a problem with Jesus.

Good advice. I think the point may be this, though: Protestants tend to believe that they do love Jesus’ mother as He would like them to, and they don’t believe that they have any problem with Mary.

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi
I believe that Mary herself has a big problem with Maryology. I believe she is in Heaven saying “Don’t focus on me, It’s ALL about my Son Jesus”

Is that what Mary said to the angel Gabriel after he addressed her, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you”?

In the Magnificat, Mary proclaims, “My soul does ‘magnify’ the Lord”. But she also prophetically declares by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, “From now all generations ‘shall’ call me blessed.” The use of the imperative form indicates that Jesus commands us to honour his mother and our mother.

Only Protestants, notably Fundamentalists, have a big problem with Mariology. Jesus would tell the Protestant, “Don’t focus only on me; it’s all about the Holy Trinity.”

“Honour thy father and thy mother. Anyone who curses father or mother must be put to death.” Jesus spoke these words before he said, “Son, behold your mother.”

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella