Does anyone else have a problem with "Maryology"?

[guanophore]

I have a couple questions with regard to Maryology. According to the Vatican, there are about 1.1 billion Catholics in the world. Presumably, hundreds of millions of those Catholics pray to Mary. Of course we don’t know how many are praying to Mary, but it has to be millions at the least.

When people pray to Jesus Christ, it is not difficult for me to grasp his ability to handle the number of prayers he receives. He is God, omniscient and omnipresent. He is everywhere at once and knows everything, infinitely capable of handling however many prayers the world sends to him.

Whatever prayers Mary hears, she only hears by the grace of God, and the clemency of her own Divine Son.

John 14:12-14
2 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Mary does not have the resources of the Lord God, though. She is not omnipresent, so how does she know that people are praying to her? And more importantly, she has a limited human mind, so how could she cope with grasping the hundreds of millions of prayers she receives a day and taking care of responding to them all?

I think you are wrong about this, and that this misunderstanding is a misunderstanding of all that God wants for human kind.

Rom 8:31-33
32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not **also give us all things **with him?

1 Cor 3:21-22
For all things are yours…

Phil 4:12-13
13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

2 Peter 1:3-5

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature."

How, when Jesus has given us ALL THINGS, and promised that we will do even greater things than He has done, do we not have His resources?

 

[Good_Fella]

Since the catholic church is making the claim that Mary can hear all these prayers at once then its up to them to show this is the case. The scriptures never attribute such powers to a created being. Also how do you know with any certainty that eternity is " beyond the constraints of real time and space"?

It is you who is making these claims. Now i know the scriptures never make such claims about like this. Where is your proof that Mary can do this and that eternity is a you say?

Because eternity is infinite and physical time and space is finite. Haven’t you read Genesis 1?

Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is in our midst. Even Einstein spoke of a spiritual or metaphysical fifth dimension that exists outside or beside time. There may even be up to seven dimensions in our world.

The scriptures do not teach us that the Bible is the only infallible teaching authority. The scriptures must be coupled with sacred tradition. For this reason Jesus commissioned his apostles to form his one visible Church, not write a Bible.

If we can do something as crude as this relative to the supernatural world, then why can’t Mary not do it in an immeasurably greater way since she is in heaven with her Son. Your faith in God is questionable.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Good_Fella]

That’s an interesting point.

But then, there also is the scripture where a woman says to Jesus, “blessed is the mother who bore you!” and he replies, “blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

In the Gospel of Luke, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and exclaimed, “Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked.” But our Lord replied, “still happier are those who hear the word of God and keep it” ( Lk 11:27). Mary is indeed blessed, but so are we who keep the word of God and keep it just as she did. Mary is blessed not just because she was the mother of Jesus, but also because she heard the word of God and kept it: “My soul does magnify the Lord” (1:46) This account alludes to the earlier account of the visitation of Mary to her cousin Elizabeth: “Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (1:42). “Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled” (1:45). Luke sees Mary as blessed not only because she is the mother of Jesus, but also because she had complete faith in His word and shared her faith with others. Jesus must have thought about the time when his mother pronounced her ‘fiat’ to the angel Gabriel when our Lord addressed the woman in the crowd. He is telling us that we must have a faith as worthy as that of his mother. Our souls too must “magnify the Lord.”

Unfortunately, belligerent Fundamentalists disgracefully cite this passage to demonstrate how Jesus could belittle his mother in public whenever he pleased because he is the Lord - as if the Word of God would dismiss the Fourth Commandment and go back on his word. This brand of Christianity is satanic.

Jesus also said: “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven.” ( Matthew 7:21) :nope:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Lief_Erikson]

In the Gospel of Luke, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and exclaimed, “Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked.” But our Lord replied, “still happier are those who hear the word of God and keep it” ( Lk 11:27). Mary is indeed blessed, but so are we who keep the word of God and keep it just as she did. Mary is blessed not just because she was the mother of Jesus, but also because she heard the word of God and kept it: “My soul does magnify the Lord” (1:46) This account alludes to the earlier account of the visitation of Mary to her cousin Elizabeth: “Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (1:42). “Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled” (1:45). Luke sees Mary as blessed not only because she is the mother of Jesus, but also because she had complete faith in His word and shared her faith with others. Jesus must have thought about the time when his mother pronounced her ‘fiat’ to the angel Gabriel when our Lord addressed the woman in the crowd. He is telling us that we must have a faith as worthy as that of his mother. Our souls too must “magnify the Lord.”

I’m glad you took the trouble to find all of those scripture references. It’s good to have a more complete picture.

It sounded to me as though Jesus was saying Mary was not blessed on account of giving him birth, but rather on account of believing God, and that faith in God was what truly gave blessing. I’m not sure where you got this conclusion from that scripture: “He is telling us that we must have a faith as worthy as that of his mother.” I think that your statement is correct, that we do need to have a pure faith, but I don’t know how you got that from the scripture we were discussing.

Unfortunately, belligerent Fundamentalists disgracefully cite this passage to demonstrate how Jesus could belittle his mother in public whenever he pleased because he is the Lord - as if the Word of God would dismiss the Fourth Commandment and go back on his word. This brand of Christianity is satanic.

All kinds of misinterpretations of scripture exist . . .

Most fundamentalists don’t hold to that position though, I think. I think that those who hold to the view you’ve described would be a small minority.

 

[Stillkickin]

nope

 

[JoeyWarren]

All kinds of misinterpretations of scripture exist . . .

One has to delve into the historical usage of the word “Rather” in the Bible from it’s Greek resonance

The choice of Rather comes from this:

**G3304 **μενοῦνγε menounge *men-oon’-geh
From G3303 and G3767 and G1065; so then at least: - nay but, yea doubtless (rather, verily).

other instances of rather since not all rathers are equal.

**G3123 **μᾶλλον mallon *mal’-lon
*Neuter of the comparative of the same as G3122; (adverb) more (in a greater degree) or rather: - + better, X far, (the) more (and more), (so) much (the more), rather.

**G2228 **ἠ ē *ay
*A primary particle of distinction between two connected terms; disjunctive, or; comparative, than: - and, but (either), (n-) either, except it be, (n-) or (else), rather, save, than, that, what, yea. Often used in connection with other particles. Compare especially G2235, G2260, G2273.

Context, Context, Context in light of the Greek…

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m glad you took the trouble to find all of those scripture references. It’s good to have a more complete picture.

It sounded to me as though Jesus was saying Mary was not blessed on account of giving him birth, but rather on account of believing God, and that faith in God was what truly gave blessing. I’m not sure where you got this conclusion from that scripture: “He is telling us that we must have a faith as worthy as that of his mother.” I think that your statement is correct, that we do need to have a pure faith, but I don’t know how you got that from the scripture we were discussing.

All kinds of misinterpretations of scripture exist . . .

Most fundamentalists don’t hold to that position though, I think. I think that those who hold to the view you’ve described would be a small minority.

Lief, I drew the conclusion by observing that attention was paid to Mary by the woman in the crowd. Luke is focussing on Mary as a model of faith to which we should aspire. Jesus did not literally say that we should have a faith as perfect as his mother’s, but he meant a quality of faith similar to hers. The Catholic Church deems Mary as a perfect model of faith for all Christians, for she stuck by her Son from the beginning of his life to its very end on Golgotha.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[justasking4]

Good Fella;2746403]Because eternity is infinite and physical time and space is finite. Haven’t you read Genesis 1?

Yes. What does this have to do with eternity? There is nothing there that tells us what the “conditions” are there.

Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is in our midst. Even Einstein spoke of a spiritual or metaphysical fifth dimension that exists outside or beside time. There may even be up to seven dimensions in our world.

Much of this has not been proven as far as i know. Secondly, even if we were to know a lot about these things, its still a long way to demonstrate that a person who may be there can answer countless prayers at once.

The scriptures do not teach us that the Bible is the only infallible teaching authority.

The scriptures are the only inspired-inerrant documents we have. Secondly they are the only reliable record of what we know of Mary.

The scriptures must be coupled with sacred tradition. For this reason Jesus commissioned his apostles to form his one visible Church, not write a Bible.

Lets look at that specific “sacred traditions” related to Mary. Who first mentions things about her queenship, assumption, etc? What are the dates for when these things were first mentioned?

If we can do something as crude as this relative to the supernatural world, then why can’t Mary not do it in an immeasurably greater way since she is in heaven with her Son.

All you are doing here is specualting about her since there are no facts to support this. Just because something may be possible doesn’t mean its actual.

Your faith in God is questionable.

What i find questionable are the claims being made about Mary that have no basis in scripture and based on the speculations of men.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[davidv]

Secondly they are the only reliable record of what we know of Mary.

Was Mary a real person? (I believe she was) Why can you discount other authentic historical records in revealing information about a real person?

 

[davidv]

What i find questionable are the claims being made about Mary that have no basis in scripture and based on the speculations of men.

And they will remain questionable as long as you dismiss the Church’s authority to teach us on these matters.

 

[justasking4]

Was Mary a real person? (I believe she was) Why can you discount other authentic historical records in revealing information about a real person?

I have no doubt Mary was a real person. What other authentic historical records on Mary are you referring to?

 

[justasking4]

And they will remain questionable as long as you dismiss the Church’s authority to teach us on these matters.

Have you study the historical basis for the claims that the catholic church makes about Mary? Are you aware when it was first mentioned she was assumed for example?

 

[LilyM]

Have you study the historical basis for the claims that the catholic church makes about Mary? Are you aware when it was first mentioned she was assumed for example?

First mentioned in Revelation darl - Mary is clear as day shown body and soul in her glory in heaven. Only way her body is there when no-one else’s but Jesus’ own is is if she’s assumed

 

[davidv]

Have you study the historical basis for the claims that the catholic church makes about Mary? Are you aware when it was first mentioned she was assumed for example?

Not in great detail. Others are far more knowledgeable about the early writings on these matters than I. But it doesn’t matter to me. I trust God, in the person of Jesus, who established to Church to teach me and guard me from error.

 

[justasking4]

First mentioned in Revelation darl - Mary is clear as day shown body and soul in her glory in heaven. Only way her body is there when no-one else’s but Jesus’ own is is if she’s assumed

Are you aware of the this was unknown in the early centuries of the church?

 

[guanophore]

You bring up some major issues on Marrology that cannot be asnwered with facts but must be based on speculations.

I think they seem like speculations like you because you are lacking the avenue of divine revelation from which they sprang.

 

[guanophore]

Since the catholic church is making the claim that Mary can hear all these prayers at once then its up to them to show this is the case.

Actually, the Catholic Church makes no such claims. We have a Sacred Tradition to pray to the saints, and we do. Whatever they are able to hear is up to God.

The scriptures never attribute such powers to a created being.

NO, the scriptures ascribe EVEN GREATER powers!!

John 14:12-14

12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

What evidence is there that we should NOT take God at His word?

Dear Lord, hear my prayers, lifted to your through the heart of your own Blessed Mother. Amen.

Whatever we ask in his name!

John 14:12-14

Also how do you know with any certainty that eternity is " beyond the constraints of real time and space"?

Because scripture says so!

Ps 90:4
4 For a thousand years in thy sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8-9

8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

It is you who is making these claims. Now i know the scriptures never make such claims about like this. Where is your proof that Mary can do this and that eternity is a you say?

Since you have disregared 2/3 of the Divine revelation in the place of your sola scriptura doctrine, I do not think it is possible for you to apprehend these matters.

 

[guanophore]

In regards to your comment “there were other things Jesus did not written. I believe those to be preserved in the Catholic Church”
what exactly is this? Can you give me a couple of examples?

He taught His apostles EVERYTHING of which only part is committed to writing. These truths are preserved in the prayers, liturgies and creeds.

 

[guanophore]

Have you study the historical basis for the claims that the catholic church makes about Mary? Are you aware when it was first mentioned she was assumed for example?

It doesn’t matter when, justasking. It would not have mattered if the canon were defined in 385, 885, or 1975. The point is that the Church has the authority to define these things because she is the sole custodian of the Divine Deposit of faith, and in her Sacred Traditions the Teachings of Jesus, handed down through the Apostles are preserved. Since you don;t accept this, it all seems like speculation to you.

Are you aware of the this was unknown in the early centuries of the church?

This conclusion represents erroneous thinking. Nothing unknown to the Church was accepted in later centuries. One of the criteria for inclusion in doctrine is Apostolic Teaching. It is true that we do not have documents on these, but we know that the teaching would have been rejected had it not been Apostolic. Good examples of these kinds of doctrines are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura, not apostolic, and therefore, rejected as doctrine.

 

[Good_Fella]

Have you study the historical basis for the claims that the catholic church makes about Mary? Are you aware when it was first mentioned she was assumed for example?

We know that the first century Christians believed in Mary’s Assumption into heaven by examining the Marian frescoes found in the Roman catacombs, notably those of St. Priscilla and St.Agnes, who were martyred for their Catholic Faith. One frescoe depicts Mary as the ‘onans’, the woman in prayer who intercedes for us (Mediatrix); another frescoe depicts Mary as the Mother of God who is together with her child before the adoring Magi; we find a frescoe depicting Mary as the New Eve. Irenaeus is among the first Church Doctors to have spoken of Mary in this light with reference to Galatians 4:4; we find the sorrowful Mother at the foot of the cross (co-Redemptrix). Finally, there is a frescoe depicting Mary as the Mother of the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church: She holds a prominent position between St.Peter and St.Paul with her arms outstretched to both, just as she took a prominent position among the apostles on Pentecost when the Catholic Church was born. There is evidence that the Christians prayed for Mary’s help and protection while they were hiding in the catacombs during the great persecutions. Obviously they believed Mary was alive and well in heaven with her Son. We do not pray to someone who is entombed and thus powerless to intercede for us as our Advocatrix. By this time Christians knew Mary’s tomb was empty, and they were aware of the reports that the apostles discovered her tomb empty during their solemn vigils. Bishop Juvenal, Patriarch of Jerusalem, related this traditional belief about Mary to the Emperor Marcion in the 5th century when the latter asked for the Virgin’s remains which were unavailable. The tomb in the valley of Josephat is still empty. Anyway, the early Christians obviously believed in the Assumption and the roles of Mary in the economy of salvation long before the New Testament was compiled and centuries before the canon of Scripture. Church doctrines are not to be based strictly on the letters of the apostles. Luke and John provide sufficient material on which to base our Marian doctrines. Besides, the canon of Scripture belongs to the Catholic Church, so don’t presume you can give us a Bible school lesson with our own Holy Book.

“To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant.”
Cardinal John H Newman

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella