Does anyone else have doubts about Our Lady of Mt. Carmel?

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holdencaulfield

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Doesn’t her words to St. Simon Stock seem a little bit heretical. That merely by wearing a Scapular you will be saved?
 
holdencaulfield said:
Doesn’t her words to St. Simon Stock seem a little bit heretical. That merely by wearing a Scapular you will be saved?
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I think that you should research what was actually said before you make statements such as this one.
 
“Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire.” - Promise of Our Lady made July 16, 1251 to St. Simon Stock
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To even suggest that the words of Our Lady might be heretical indicates:
  1. You are incredibly confused, and should seek a knowledgeable priest for proper instruction, and Confession.
or,
  1. You are a reprobate.
 
To the OP

That statement alone, would make me, a former protestant, uneasy. So don’t let the hostility of the thread make you feel bad. However, there is a lot more to the scapular than just wearing it. There is faith involved, and prayer, and devotion. All things which would lead to a more devout Christian life and therefore in showing your devotion to Christ you will be saved. You can be saved without a scapular though

I hope that helps and it isn’t too off the mark. I’ve been researching scapulars myself.
 
I think you should explore the context.
MARY’S PROMISE TO THOSE WHO WEAR THE SCAPULAR
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Our Lady gave St. Simon a scapular for the Carmelites with the following promise, saying : Receive, My beloved son, this habit of thy order: this shall be to thee and to all Carmelites a privilege, that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire … It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace.
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Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”
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CONDITIONS AND RITUALS ATTACHED TO THE SCAPULAR
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According to Church tradition, there are t**hree conditions necessary to participate in this Privilege **and share in the other spiritual benefits of the Scapular: wear the Brown Scapular, observe chastity according to your state in life, and pray the Rosary. In addition to the Sabbatine Privilege, enrollment in the Brown Scapular also makes a person part of the Carmelite family throughout the world. They therefore share in all of the prayers and good works of the Carmelite Orders. Participation in the Carmelite family also, of course, places you in a special relationship with the Carmelite saints, especially St. Elijah, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Therese of Lisieux, and, most importantly, Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
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In order to receive the spiritual blessings associated with the Scapular, it is necessary to be formally enrolled in the Brown Scapular by either a priest or a lay person who has been given this faculty. Once enrolled, the enrollment is for life and need not be repeated. Anyone, adult or infant, who has not previously been enrolled may be enrolled in the Brown Scapular.
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VALUE AND MEANING OF THE SCAPULAR
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Many popes and saints have strongly recommended wearing, the Brown Scapular to the Catholic Faithful, including St. Robert Bellarmine, Pope John XXII, Pope Pius Xl, and Pope Benedict XV. For example, St. Alphonsus said: “Just as men take pride in having others wear their livery, so the Most Holy Mary is pleased when Her servants wear Her Scapular as a mark that they have dedicated themselves to Her service, and are members of the Family of the Mother of God.”
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Pope Pius XII went so far as to say: “The Scapular is a practice of piety which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone, and has spread widely among the faithful of Christ to their spiritual profit.” In our own times, Pope Paul VI said: “Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin … the Rosary and the Scapular of Carmel” and in another place referred to the Scapular as: “so highly recommended by our illustrious predecessors.”
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Now, the fact is, that anything which an approved apparition has said (and this is approved) is considered ‘worthy of belief’ (though it is not demanded to be believed).

It is not part of the deposit of faith. You need not believe in it, or practice it–but you must not thereby call it ‘heretical’. You may ‘doubt’ it personally but you may not doubt the word of Holy Mother Church which has stated that, according to the above, what Mary has stated is ‘worthy of belief’. If it is ‘worthy of belief’, then it is not "unworthy of belief’ by definition. It is not NECESSARY for belief, but it is not to be treated as false or unworthy.

It is not just the ‘wearing’ of the Scapular that is important–it is a sign but in and of itself it is not effacacious unless God (through Mary) has given you the grace not only of wearing it but observing the other parts above. . .that is, observation of chastity and prayer of the Rosary, as well as formal enrollment.

Our Blessed Mother is not a fool. Neither is God. I suppose you are worried that some evil person (like Hitler, say), could be enrolled in the Brown Scapular, wear it, be chaste, ‘say the rosary’, and while doing that, murder 6 million people, and then ‘get into heaven free’ on the basis of ‘fulfilling the conditions.’

Do you really think that God didn’t ‘foresee’ that some people might think 'hey, here’s a sure ticket to heaven and all I have to do is X, Y and Z and I can sin all I want, too!?"

Of course he did. How likely is it that somebody who is merrily sinning away is truly following the REST of the practices? Not likely. The point of wearing the scapular is to ‘clothe oneself’ as one who is devoted to God. If you are only paying ‘lip service’ to God, then you’re wearing the scapular like a ‘lucky charm’. . .and God reads your HEART and is not fooled. Recitation of the rosary isn’t gabbled words but a true meditation on Christ. . .if you’re sinning away, you aren’t thinking of God, you’re just 'babbling words. . .so you aren’t really meeting THAT condition either. Further, chaste living isn’t just limited to sexual continence. . .it means living righteously. . .which of course you aren’t doing if you sin.

So. . . if you are treating the scapular like a lucky charm, gabbling your rosary, and living an unchaste, sinful life, it is YOU who is not living up to the promise of the scapular–not Mary, and not God. It isn’t a magic bullet–it is a promise made by God through Mary of aid and help IF YOU FULFILL YOUR PART OF THE PROMISE.
 
Carolinagirl411 said:
To the OP

That statement alone, would make me, a former protestant, uneasy. So don’t let the hostility of the thread make you feel bad. However, there is a lot more to the scapular than just wearing it. There is faith involved, and prayer, and devotion. All things which would lead to a more devout Christian life and therefore in showing your devotion to Christ you will be saved. You can be saved without a scapular though

I hope that helps and it isn’t too off the mark. I’ve been researching scapulars myself.
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So is this an example of the quote being taken out of context?
 
Thanks again. I guess it just seems like some of those quotes that dissenters take out of context.
 
Sorry for the knee-jerk response. I can’t stand any perceived attack on Our Lady, or on the Blessed Eucharist. It’s a Catholic thing. 🙂
 
roguejim said:
Sorry for the knee-jerk response. I can’t stand any perceived attack on Our Lady, or on the Blessed Eucharist. It’s a Catholic thing. 🙂
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Nor, can I however there are occasions of “Marian Apparitions” that are Satanic of origin. So it is wise to always wonder about these things.
 
I suggest you do some research before you even dare blaspheme against Our Lady.

I know you might be new to traditional Catholicism, so you should be a little more careful before you attack a Marian apparition that has had Church approval for centuries. This devotion has been so popular and traditional for centuries.

It is completely ludicrous to try to claim that this could be demonic. Saints, Popes, and Doctors of the Church have had a devotion to this apparition in which Mary was a messanger of God. God wished to give mankind another grace through the Brown Scapular.

Most Catholics know that the brown Scapular is not a magic charm in which you get a free ticket to heaven.

Our Lady’s words must be understood in the context of all the rules and privileges that one must follow with the Scapular.
Our Lady’s Promise is true when ALL conditions are followed.
 
I think everyone should go a little easier on the OP. He has a legitimate question that is better answered with information than with namecalling.

For what its worth, I had the same question when I learned about the Brown Scapular. The way the it was explained to me is that dying while wearing it is more a sign that you’re worthy Our Lady’s help than anything else. I’ve heard more than one story about someone who thought they could go to heaven merely by wearing the Scapular and then they ended up being in a car accident that caused their Scapular to fly off right before they died or they had a heart attack and the paramedics tore the Scapular off of the person while trying to save them. Who knows if these particular stories are true, but it makes sense that Our Lady would be able to intervene to prevent those who do not deserve her help from obtaining the promises of the Scapular.
 
GodIsSalvation said:
I think everyone should go a little easier on the OP. He has a legitimate question that is better answered with information than with namecalling.

For what its worth, I had the same question when I learned about the Brown Scapular. The way the it was explained to me is that dying while wearing it is more a sign that you’re worthy Our Lady’s help than anything else. I’ve heard more than one story about someone who thought they could go to heaven merely by wearing the Scapular and then they ended up being in a car accident that caused their Scapular to fly off right before they died or they had a heart attack and the paramedics tore the Scapular off of the person while trying to save them. Who knows if these particular stories are true, but it makes sense that Our Lady would be able to intervene to prevent those who do not deserve her help from obtaining the promises of the Scapular.
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I got no problems with these types of questions about the Brown Scapular.

Holden’s queston about the scapular is understandable and valid.
However, that does not mean you declare Our Lady heretical and blaspheme her and start a thread questioning the validity of a Catholic approved apparition.

One should try to understand what Our Lady words mean by asking questions about it before you make outrageous statements that a reprobate would make.
 
@saint rafael:

I have a very strong devotion to the Theotokos, so don’t say that I don’t. I would not willingly say something blasphemous about her, however I was just questioning the words about the Scapular. That’s all. I wasn’t trying to attack Church Magisterium. You should now this, on other threads I am always supporting Church Magisterium. I was just wondering.
 
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