Does anyone else have doubts about Our Lady of Mt. Carmel?

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On the internet, I would think that most of us have had the experience of being misunderstood.

And then, again, one might wonder, how is it that St. Christopher is in a poster’s signature and this question is asked. That could look questionable, but I am saying I’m not to judge.

All the same, Mr. Saint Raphael did a good job in his/her postings!
 
Ok, I was writing my answer and lost my connection: so I will write what I have an add on if need be.
holdencaulfield said:
:confused: What do you mean? I have an Icon of St. Christopher for my signature. What does that have to do with my question. :confused:
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Well, for once, I know that someone will have a better answer on this than me and it goes down to the official documents, doctrine that so many people will paste here.

St. Christopher is great, but I believe Catholic teaching has distanced itself from teaching about him, carrying the Christ child because we in fact know little about him, it is a controversial subject without getting into hot water myself.

Except to say, Catholics may be sensitive to some subjects and St. Christopher is a St. who’s status is questioned.

So, I will go for a few citations: with all respect: and I was looking at different sources, but this does seem to describe the situation well.

"The **one-time **Catholic patron saint of travellers, Saint Christopher – whose name means “Christ carrier” – is not mentioned in the Bible. …

Christopher was a widely popular saint, and was especially revered by mariners, ferrymen, and travellers. HIs feast day was July 25th, except in Greece, where it was celebrated on March 9th. In modern times a major center of his cult was in Italy and among Italian-Americans,** a fact that did not stop the Vatican from de-canonizing him during a late 20th century purge of the list of saints."** Saint Christopher medals and holy cards are more difficult to find now that his status has been downgraded to that of a mere legend, but they are still being manufactured and many Mexican and Italian Catholics still believe that his image is the best amulet to carry in one’s wallet, wear on a necklace while on a journey, or hang from the rear view mirror attachment of one’s car. The enamel and silver Saint Christopher medal shown here dates from the 1930s. " - luckymojo.com/saintchristopher.html
So in other words, someone could perceive someone being a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” I said I have no right to judge, but to question the Scapular, to have something up about a Saint of which even it seems some of the Fathers of the Church have discounted might lead one to wonder!
 
SongofShepherds said:
So in other words, someone could perceive someone being a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” I said I have no right to judge, but to question the Scapular, to have something up about a Saint of which even it seems some of the Fathers of the Church have discounted might lead one to wonder!
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I for one, don’t really see the incompatibility (aside from the fact that St. Christopher is still in the martyrology). It is not necessary that one necause one has a question about one aspect of a private revelation, he/she is questioning the whole gamut.

In any case, holden did not insult the person of our Lady. Secondly, he was only reacting against a perceived notion about the scapular. That is hardly reason to call him “reprobate” as much as one is fond of the word. People who question aspects of private revelation are not deemed reprobates. At best, they can be deemed rash . Perhaps even impious - if the aspect of revelation passes over into ecclesiastical faith.
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher

This seems to be a fair summation too.

Let’s hope he is cannonized properly if he merits it, it is a great name no matter what.

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=36

Okay, note this quote from Catholic Online:

"…In 1969, the Church took a long look at all the saints on its calendar to see if there was historical evidence that that saint existed and lived a life of holiness. In taking that long look, the Church discovered that there was little proof that many “saints”, including some very popular ones, ever lived. Christopher was one of the names that was determined to have a basis mostly in legend. Therefore Christopher (and others) were dropped from the universal calendar. "
My internet reception is poor tonight, so I should sign out, I shouldn’t be on here anyway: fascinating.

I’ve heard the term “reprobate”, I don’t really know exactly what that means, I did not use it.

Let’s all see Christ in each other and in ourselves, and respect and care for one another.
 
AJV said:
I for one, don’t really see the incompatibility (aside from the fact that St. Christopher is still in the martyrology). It is not necessary that one necause one has a question about one aspect of a private revelation, he/she is questioning the whole gamut.

holden did not insult the person of our Lady. Secondly, he was only reacting against a perceived notion about the scapular. That is hardly reason to call him “reprobate” as much as one is fond of the word. People who question aspects of private revelation are not deemed reprobates. At best, they can be deemed rash and even impious - that too if the aspect revelation passes over into ecclesiastical faith.
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You are correct, I said I did not judge and did not use the term reprobate to anyone, however, I would not likely judge those who found question with some of this thread either. It does make one wonder.

And did I say it earlier, it is easy on the internet to say one thing and mean another, so again, I certainly said on these postings, I did not judge Holden’s intention. I am versed enough in this matter and so apparently was another poster on the first page to see this was probably not stated in a tactful way.

“I have questions about …” Maybe, “I have doubts about …” seems to cross a fine line. One might have to have real knowledge or at least have held, have worn a Scapular to not appreciate the tone.
 
SongofShepherds said:
St. Christopher is great, but I believe Catholic teaching has distanced itself from teaching about him, carrying the Christ child because we in fact know little about him, it is a controversial subject without getting into hot water myself.

Except to say, Catholics may be sensitive to some subjects and St. Christopher is a St. who’s status is questioned.

So, I will go for a few citations: with all respect: and I was looking at different sources, but this does seem to describe the situation well.

"The **one-time **Catholic patron saint of travellers, Saint Christopher – whose name means “Christ carrier” – is not mentioned in the Bible. …

Christopher was a widely popular saint, and was especially revered by mariners, ferrymen, and travellers. HIs feast day was July 25th, except in Greece, where it was celebrated on March 9th. In modern times a major center of his cult was in Italy and among Italian-Americans,** a fact that did not stop the Vatican from de-canonizing him during a late 20th century purge of the list of saints."** Saint Christopher medals and holy cards are more difficult to find now that his status has been downgraded to that of a mere legend, but they are still being manufactured and many Mexican and Italian Catholics still believe that his image is the best amulet to carry in one’s wallet, wear on a necklace while on a journey, or hang from the rear view mirror attachment of one’s car. The enamel and silver Saint Christopher medal shown here dates from the 1930s. " -
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St. Christopher has always been venerated by all Christians as the patron saint to travelers and the the story about the Christ Child has always been accepted, I will therefore go with it.
 
Get Invested!

Invested in the Brown Scapular.

I thought this was too important to leave be.

Those who wear the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel are often in fact, “Invested” in it. Very important in this conversation; a ceremony, a formality in whatever form it may take.

“The short form of investing or conferral consists of a priest or deacon taking a blessed scapular and while placing it over their head reciting with the person any Marian prayer (e.g. Hail Mary, Memorare, Salve Regina). The person is now invested. They don’t have any lists to join, though they are henceforth members of the Scapular Confraternity and share in its spiritual benefits (the prayers of the members). No special daily practices are obliged, though someone consecrated to Mary, of which the scapular is THE sign, should live chastity according to their state and recite the rosary daily.” - ewtn.com/expert/answers/brown_scapular.htm

And it merits saying that if one wears the Carmelite scapular when they pray, they can unite with that community in fact, in prayer.

There are a number of Scapulars available, in fact, I read up to 20.

According to Fr. Lawrence G. Lovasik in his devotional “Mary My Hope”, we find the **exact words **Our Lady of Mount Carmel used on page 70.

"…She appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said, "Take this scapular of your order as a badge of my confraternity and for you and all Carmelites a special sign of grace; whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant."

Well, then, a Covenant is ?? … sort of like a contract.

“1. A binding agreement; a compact.
2. Law
a. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God’s promise to the human race.”
So in fact, we should be able to go to Heaven living in a Holy way, without a Scapular but it is approved by the Church and has benefits attached to it. And more as other citations show below.

It is not correct to say, this is like a guarantee of going to Heaven if one is wearing a scapular; doesn’t that “pledge of peace and of the covenant” also have to be followed? And means following certain behavior? Yes, I think so! It doesn’t just say “if you die wearing this, you don’t go to hell!” We must study up and it is not always to find the correct reading material.

The Dictionary of Mary reads on page 421:

3. Reason for Modern Use of Scapulars

"Ultimately, the reason for using scapulars lies in the Church’s teaching about Mary’s Motherhood of the Church and of the faithful as well as her intercessory role. Once the necessity of living the essential Marian form of faith has been understood, the symbol of the scapular or any other symbol adopted knowingly and spiritually vivified becomes an aid to faith and in some way renders effective what it signifies. Hence, the scapular is not a talisman or good luck charm. Rather it is a stimulus to faith and all that follows from it. So today, without any difficulty, many replace the scapular with a similar blessed medal. It is the commitment that matters.

The scapular is also a good reminder of the value of symbols in the lives of all human beings, espcially in areas where love comes into play. The wedding ring, for example, is also a pure symbol, and it can be of gold or of any other metal. And those who understand that they should be grateful to bear with them the sign of a loved person will also understand the wisdom of the Church in not deprecating these ancient symbols." - A. Buono.

Well stated!

See, the Scapular before it became like a Scapular we wear was what Monks wore when they did heavy work and in those days covered the front and back upper part of their body, similar to how an apron works. The Scapular hung from the shoulders, scapular meaning shoulder in Latin. And eventually, the Holy Lady appeared with a certain Scapular to aid St. Simon Stock’s oppressed religious order. Throughout the ages, the scapular has developed and become smaller as it is no longer just something worn doing heavy work but now has taken on a different meaning.

And if one were “Invested”; well, that means a lot! That is important. In fact, isn’t a Scapular a Sacramental? Similar to other processes in the Church.

http://rosaries.com/scapular/img0.jpg
 
If Our Lady makes a promise of any kind, we know it is God’s will, and is therefore, infallibly true.

“Jesus honored her before all ages, and will honor her for all ages. No one comes to Him, nor even near Him, no one is saved or sanctified, if he too will not honor her. This is the lot of angels and men.”
St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

“There is a generation that does not bless their Mother, a generation pure in their own eyes and yet not washed from their filthiness.”
Proverbs 30:11-12

“All the true children of God, the predestinate, have God for their Father and Mary for their Mother. He who has not Mary for his Mother has not God for his Father.”
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

“Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother either; the Father will not send His Son to him; the Son will not descend into his soul; the Holy Spirit will not make him a member of the Mystical Body of Christ; for all these mysteries of grace take place in Mary Full-Of-Grace, and in her alone. And, since the First-Born Son was conceived only through the specific consent of the Most Blessed Virgin, the same holds true for all other humans.”
St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

“Your heart will either sing the divine canticles of Our Lady, or echo the cursed and unhappy songs of wordlings here in dishonor to God and vibrate eternally with the blasphemies and horrid dirges of the damned in Hell!”
St. John Eudes

Nothing likely saintly reflections.
 
👍

I’m glad you got some solid responses on this Holden.

It’s important to keep in mind that the scapular is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Simply wearing it will not guarantee the Sabbatine privelege. Also, the enrollment is important. It is not like other devotionals where, when you get a new one, you get it blessed. Once enrolled, the blessing is confered upon the person enrolled, not the scapular itself. You can replace it as needed without further blessings for the article.

The scapular should be looked at as a sign of identity and devotion. It’s also a great reminder (to reflect and pray), and potentially a tool to open great opportunities for discussion and testimony. 👍

I am partial to this particular version …(see below :cool: )
 
holdencaulfield said:
@saint rafael:

I have a very strong devotion to the Theotokos, so don’t say that I don’t. I would not willingly say something blasphemous about her, however I was just questioning the words about the Scapular. That’s all. I wasn’t trying to attack Church Magisterium. You should now this, on other threads I am always supporting Church Magisterium. I was just wondering.
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I know you support the Church Magisterium, I am just concerned that in your zeal sometimes you cross the line. Carelessness can cross the boundaries of the heretical.

The words you started the thread with:

"Doesn’t her words to St. Simon Stock seem a little bit heretical"

If you loved the Theotokos, the mother of God, you wouldn’t put heresy and Mary in the same sentence. Mary could never speak error as she has no sin and partakes in the beatific vision in heaven with God.
Your question was sincere but the mistakes was claiming Mary’s words could be heretical.
 
saint_rafael said:
I know you support the Church Magisterium, I am just concerned that in your zeal sometimes you cross the line. Carelessness can cross the boundaries of the heretical.

The words you started the thread with:

"Doesn’t her words to St. Simon Stock seem a little bit heretical"

If you loved the Theotokos, the mother of God, you wouldn’t put heresy and Mary in the same sentence. Mary could never speak error as she has no sin and partakes in the beatific vision in heaven with God.
Your question was sincere but the mistakes was claiming Mary’s words could be heretical.
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I think what Holden implied here, and may have even mentioned it in a post, is that he was questioning the validity of the apparition to St. Simon Stock. I don’t think that he was connecting heresy with the Mother of God, but rather with an apparition that he was unsure of. Let’s face it, there have been apparitions that may well be preternatural and not at all the Blessed Mother. And it is wise to be skeptical of unapproved apparations. Rest assured though that Our Lady of Mt. Carmel is approved. 🙂
 
Graing said:
👍

I’m glad you got some solid responses on this Holden.

It’s important to keep in mind that the scapular is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Simply wearing it will not guarantee the Sabbatine privelege. Also, the enrollment is important. It is not like other devotionals where, when you get a new one, you get it blessed. Once enrolled, the blessing is confered upon the person enrolled, not the scapular itself. You can replace it as needed without further blessings for the article.

The scapular should be looked at as a sign of identity and devotion. It’s also a great reminder (to reflect and pray), and potentially a tool to open great opportunities for discussion and testimony. 👍

I am partial to this particular version …(see below :cool: )
Click to expand...
Don’t stop now!

Well, towards the end there, you start to testify, I think we’d like to hear more if you have anything to add.

In some ways, this thread, I’m not sure to say, it has turned into a blessing but just to me, to read some of this is.

And I read the other thread on this from a few years ago, this seems to be an interesting company for Scapulars: rosescapular.com/

But we need to pray for the sorrows in this world and I made a vow really not to get on here unless there is something pertinent 'cos I’m a sinner who needs to repent more but this witnessing above did make me want to read further.
 
saint_rafael said:
If you loved the Theotokos, the mother of God, you wouldn’t put heresy and Mary in the same sentence. Mary could never speak error as she has no sin and partakes in the beatific vision in heaven with God.
Your question was sincere but the mistakes was claiming Mary’s words could be heretical.
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True, her words could not be heretical. However they could if it was a demon in the form of her. I’m not saying it is, just giving an example.
 
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