Does anyone have a "Right" to my money?

[vern_humphrey]

Where does this right come from? Who will enforce this right? And will this right vary from state to state? And how does one determine what minimun is? Here in the U.S. there is a fortune in taxes that are spent on all kinds of social programs designed to do what you speak of. These programs never go away they only take on a life of their own. The idea is not to keep one on welfare and hope to get his vote thereby ensuring a live on the dole, but to give that person a way of making a decent living. We have 3 or 4 generations on welfare and know of no other way of life. We keep voting the “welfare” politicians into office and this failure is self perpetuating. Its a vicious circle and to break this circle would put millions of social workers, politicians out of work. Hmm, the new poor.

With the greatest good will in the world, we have done incalculable harm to the very people we thought we were helping.

Poverty was falling like a stone when the Great Society kicked in, and now it is institutionalized.

 

[anthony022071]

I think you’re taking a very uncharitable position.

No one here is “avoiding charity.” We want to go beyond charity, to Social Justice.

The poster I responded spoke of avoiding the need for the act of charity. And you speak of going beyond charity,as if there was actually was something higher than charity. Why do you want to “go beyond” charity? The command of God is not enough? There’s nothing beyond charity but impersonal work systems. Charity is not a subset of social justice. It’s the other way around. Charity (and I mean personal charity) precedes social justice,because it is simpler,personal,and basic. Charity is taking social justice,or rather God’s justice upon one’s own self,and that is far more essential than looking for some large-scale economic or governmental solution to provide justice.

 

[jman507]

jman507;2559658:

If you want to bring back the depression, it might be easier to understand.

I don’t understand that comment.

It’s not so much of an outright act of charity, but even better than giving an act of charity is to avoid the need for the act of charity in the first place, because the needs are met. Not everyone will be able to do function in a society due to disablity, but it is better to have those able to avoid taking the aid from those who are unable.

Economic theory is not better than charity
There is no excuse for a Christian to think of the need for the act of charity as something that ought to be avoided,as if it were such a heavy burden,or undignified,or disgraceful,or a nuisance.

That’s the wrong attitude. It shows that we want to get out of our Christian duty,and to deal with poverty with worldly wisdom rather than the wisdom of God’s commands.
We will be judged by our willingness to give to the poor and needy.

The person that we worship was poor,and associated himself with the poor,the homeless,the sinners,the wretched,the losers of society. The poor should be looked upon as if they were put in our vicinity as a test from God (Matthew 26,34-46).

Giving freely to those in need is what we are commanded by God to do.

I suppose are you looking just to keep poor in circumstances that causes those who have the ability to get out to stay in, you can pat yourself in the back for giving them something to eat. Oh wait in good Catholic charity I will assume the best, and not think that your just seeking the vain-glory of feeling superior to those who you help, and are in love with having people feel they need to depend on you. Yes, I’d also hope you to expect the best intention of me.

Well if you actually reread what I wrote, I wrote nothing of the sort saying poor who have no ability of improving their lot, due to disability or whatever reason, should not receive any aid. Ok I did write that its a good idea to help get the poor who are able, out of that circumstance, so they do not have to take it away from those who are truly needy.

Seriously I think you completely misread that post. Please parse it apart. I am sure you’ll find there is some dissonance between what you thought I mean and what I actually wrote.

 

[melensdad]

The poster I responded spoke of avoiding the need for the act of charity. And you speak of going beyond charity,as if there was actually was something higher than charity. Why do you want to “go beyond” charity? The command of God is not enough? There’s nothing beyond charity but impersonal work systems. Charity is not a subset of social justice. It’s the other way around. Charity (and I mean personal charity) precedes social justice,because it is simpler,personal,and basic. Charity is taking social justice,or rather God’s justice upon one’s own self,and that is far more essential than looking for some large-scale economic or governmental solution to provide justice.

I think you are confused. It seems to me people here are trying to be charitable in many ways. I just opened 3 small retail stores over the past 45 days. Each store provides jobs to people who need them. Most of the employees are college students who need a job to stay in school and pay tuition. Without these jobs these people might not finish school. I know all the employees, none come from well off backgrounds, all are middle-class or lower. Perhaps because of these jobs they will become productive members of society and may never need charity. Is this not also a good purpose? This is part of the concept of social justice. It is a way of giving a hand up, instead of a hand out.

None of this also stops me from making charitable donations. I do that too. The question really is does the government distribute wealth more efficiently to others? Do the government’s ‘charitable’ programs actually work at reducing poverty or do they make it worse by continuing the cycle? Do our efforts to participate in private charity do more to help, and if they do then why should a government program be able to “take” our money and redistribute it in a manner that may actually be counter-productive?

 

[vern_humphrey]

The poster I responded spoke of avoiding the need for the act of charity. And you speak of going beyond charity,as if there was actually was something higher than charity.

It is higher than charity. In Catholic social teaching, Social Justice seeks to remedy the social conditions that result in a need for charity.

Time for the parable of the sunken ship:

A ship sank in the middle of the ocean. The survivors floated under the blazing sun in the life rafts, without food and water. Then a plane flew over and dropped food, water, chapstick and sun block.

A few days later, another plane flew over and dropped more food, water, chapstick and sun block. And another a few days later. And so it went, week after week, month after month – a drop of food, water, chapstick and sun block every few days.

And finally one of the survivors said, “I don’t want to seem ungrateful, and I really appreciate all this food, water, chapstick and sun block, but don’t you think it would be cheaper if they’d just take us ashore, and we could find our own food, water, chapstick and sun block?”

Dropping food, water, sunblock and chapstick is charity. Bringing the survivors ashore is Social Justice.

Why do you want to “go beyond” charity?

So people can have the dignity of supporting themselves. So people who really need charity will have more – due to people who formerly were consumers of charity now being contributors.

The command of God is not enough?

What command of God says, “Leave the poor in poverty. Do not educate them. Do not create jobs for them. Let them wallow in misery?”

There’s nothing beyond charity but impersonal work systems. Charity is not a subset of social justice. It’s the other way around. Charity (and I mean personal charity) precedes social justice,because it is simpler,personal,and basic. Charity is taking social justice,or rather God’s justice upon one’s own self,and that is far more essential than looking for some large-scale economic or governmental solution to provide justice.

The Catholic Church disagrees with you.

 

[anthony022071]

anthony022071;2560659:

I suppose are you looking just to keep poor in circumstances that causes those who have the ability to get out to stay in, you can pat yourself in the back for giving them something to eat. Oh wait in good Catholic charity I will assume the best, and not think that your just seeking the vain-glory of feeling superior to those who you help, and are in love with having people feel they need to depend on you.

It’s not a matter of patting myself on the back,it’s a matter of doing God’s command.

Yes, I’d also hope you to expect the best intention of me.

When someone suggests that an economic system is better than the charity God commanded of us personally,I have to doubt their intentions,and question their priorities.

Well if you actually reread what I wrote, I wrote nothing of the sort saying poor who have no ability of improving their lot, due to disability or whatever reason, should not receive any aid.

I know you didn’t say that.

Ok I did write that its a good idea to help get the poor who are able, out of that circumstance, so they do not have to take it away from those who are truly needy.

Obviously there’s nothing wrong with helping the poor out of that circumstance. But it is not a matter of the poor taking anything away from those who are truly needy. They’re not taking any charity that isn’t being given to them.

QUOTE]

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s not a matter of patting myself on the back,it’s a matter of doing God’s command.

I repeat, what command of God says, “Leave the poor in poverty. Do not educate them. Do not create jobs for them. Let them wallow in misery?”

Where are we commanded to do nothing more than aleviate their misery on a day-to-day basis? Where are we commanded to not create jobs?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Let me tell a Social Justice story.

Sam Walton, the founder of Wal-Mart, got his start running the Ben Franklin store in Newport, Arkansas. Newport is in the “Delta” – which is what we call the broad Mississippi river bottoms in Arkansas. The Delta counties are the poorest in the United States, and are controlled by the old Confederate Plantation Owner class.

Sam wanted to put Wal-Mart headquarters in Newport – and got run out of town! The powers-that-be were afraid he’d “raise wages” and that is the ultimate sin.

So Sam went to the hillbilly country of northwest Arkansas and set up his business – and at that time, northwest Arkansas was just as poor as the Delta. In addition, it had no railway lines, no river transportation, no big airports nearby. It looked like a bad place to set up a business.

Today, Northwest Arkansas is booming. It’s the richest part of the state. As for the Delta, when I was running for Congress, I spoke to a representative of the Economic Development Authority about the Delta. He said, “We’ve poured billions into the Delta and . . .” and he made a gesture to imitate a toilet flushing.

If we want to end poverty in the Delta, we need to find another Sam Walton and convince him to set up his business there.

 

[anthony022071]

I think you are confused. It seems to me people here are trying to be charitable in many ways. I just opened 3 small retail stores over the past 45 days. Each store provides jobs to people who need them. Most of the employees are college students who need a job to stay in school and pay tuition. Without these jobs these people might not finish school. I know all the employees, none come from well off backgrounds, all are middle-class or lower. Perhaps because of these jobs they will become productive members of society and may never need charity. Is this not also a good purpose? This is part of the concept of social justice. It is a way of giving a hand up, instead of a hand out.

What does that have to do with Christian charity? That’s just running a business. You’re getting material payback for employing those people,and you would not employ them if you were not able to make a profit. Any atheistic,lowlife business owner can make such claims.

None of this also stops me from making charitable donations. I do that too.

That’s what counts as charity,what you give from your heart.

The question really is does the government distribute wealth more efficiently to others?

No.

Do the government’s ‘charitable’ programs actually work at reducing poverty or do they make it worse by continuing the cycle?

They make it worse in some ways.

Do our efforts to participate in private charity do more to help,

That shouldn’t even be the primary concern. We can’t really measure the value or effects of private charity. We should help others because it is good and right to do so and because God commanded us to do so.

and if they do then why should a government program be able to “take” our money and redistribute it in a manner that may actually be counter-productive?

The government takes our money to the extent that we give it. There’s no reason to entrust charity to the machinery of capitalism any more than we have reason to entrust charity to the machinery of socialistic government programs.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That shouldn’t even be the primary concern. We can’t really measure the value or effects of private charity. We should help others because it is good and right to do so and because God commanded us to do so.

Yes, we can measure the value and effects of both private charity and government programs.

Jesus asked if you son asks for a fish, would you give him a snake. The answer is many government programs have done exactly that. And we have an obligation to audit those programs and change them.

 

[melensdad]

Anthony, I’m thinking you are seriously confused on how business works. Why people own them. What motivates us to take risks. How we share our rewards with society, etc. I own several so let me tell you a little about business. They are a major financial gamble that sometimes pays off. Most new businesses fail. But to suggest that it is JUST running a business is clearly a misunderstanding. First, at age 46, I could retire. Easily. So me opening up new businesses is something I want to do, not have to do. Second, I’ve got hundreds of thousands of dollars invested right now and have no chance that any of the stores is even going to “break even” in the near future. So my stores are a long term gamble that I am taking. But I do it as much for the challenge as for any gain. And I also do it to help people. In fact my main business gets awards every year for the work it does with helping the retarded, helping the police, helping the community, etc. We donate to all sorts of charities from the local animal shelter to the local food pantry. We donate to several parish schools and to public organizations. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans I sent several of my manager to work there to reopen a major food distribution center to make sure people had access to food, bottled water, etc. While they were down there I paid them double wages and paid for their expenses. The point, to me, to be in business is not to make money, but to make enough money so that I can use the business to help others. That is the SOCIAL JUSTICE portion of contributing to society so that the NEED FOR CHARITY is minimized and so that people can stand up on their own two feet.

 

[anthony022071]

I repeat, what command of God says, “Leave the poor in poverty. Do not educate them. Do not create jobs for them. Let them wallow in misery?”

Where are we commanded to do nothing more than aleviate their misery on a day-to-day basis? Where are we commanded to not create jobs?

Oh,please,no red herrings for me.
I never suggested anything along those lines. What I’m against is this idea that Social Justice,in the form of capitalism,is better or higher than personal charity. How is it that capitalists are now mimicking the old Social Justice line of the communists and socialists? – equating work-systems and economic theories with the highest good. This kind of misguided optimism and idealism needs to be stopped. Christian faith,hope,and charity shouldn’t be conflated with the machinery of man-made institutions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Oh,please,no red herrings for me.

I’m not the one who posts in Dark Red.

I never suggested anything along those lines. What I’m against is this idea that Social Justice,in the form of capitalism,is better or higher than personal charity.

You seem to have conflated several ideas – can you untangle them?

The Church upholds Social Justice – which is defined as correcting the underlying conditions that make so much charity necessary. To date, no one has come up with an effective form of Social Justice other than education and an expanding economy to create jobs for the poor.

How is it that capitalists are now mimicking the old Social Justice line of the communists and socialists?

The communists and socialists never produced a Social Justice program.

– equating work-systems and economic theories with the highest good.

Making people self-supporting may not be the highest good, but it’s right up there.

This kind of misguided optimism and idealism needs to be stopped. Christian faith,hope,and charity shouldn’t be conflated with the machinery of man-made institutions.

Then why bring in the old Social Justice line of the communists and socialists?

 

[jman507]

Oh,please,no red herrings for me.
I never suggested anything along those lines. What I’m against is this idea that Social Justice,in the form of capitalism,is better or higher than personal charity. How is it that capitalists are now mimicking the old Social Justice line of the communists and socialists? – equating work-systems and economic theories with the highest good. This kind of misguided optimism and idealism needs to be stopped. Christian faith,hope,and charity shouldn’t be conflated with the machinery of man-made institutions.

You are correct when you say that capitalism is higher than personal charity. One can talk of economic theory, and at least in its nominal nature it is just a theory of materialists system. That is neither good nor bad in itself. In the end we live in an integrated world, so economic is insufficient for life. In life it is needed to bring the spirit of charity into what ever economic system. I think capitalism is the most agile to meet the people’s needs. Charity is not worse than capitalism, but when charity is combined with capitalism, it can help meet most peoples needs, and then you can use that to help out the people who need help.

You will have problems anytime you try to seperate spirit from the earth. The Church really wouldn’t be the chuch unless you had people actively ingaged in the world. With a few exceptions, in general you cannot seperate faith, hope, and charity from the world.

How can you cloth the naked, if you do not have the people and mechanisms to make clothes get them to the naked?

 

[anthony022071]

Anthony, I’m thinking you are seriously confused on how business works.

That’s not even my concern. I’m concerned with how morality works.

Why people own them. What motivates us to take risks. How we share our rewards with society, etc. I own several so let me tell you a little about business. They are a major financial gamble that sometimes pays off. Most new businesses fail. But to suggest that it is JUST running a business is clearly a misunderstanding. First, at age 46, I could retire. Easily. So me opening up new businesses is something I want to do, not have to do. Second, I’ve got hundreds of thousands of dollars invested right now and have no chance that any of the stores is even going to “break even” in the near future. So my stores are a long term gamble that I am taking. But I do it as much for the challenge as for any gain. And I also do it to help people. In fact my main business gets awards every year for the work it does with helping the retarded, helping the police, helping the community, etc. We donate to all sorts of charities from the local animal shelter to the local food pantry. We donate to several parish schools and to public organizations. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans I sent several of my manager to work there to reopen a major food distribution center to make sure people had access to food, bottled water, etc. While they were down there I paid them double wages and paid for their expenses. The point, to me, to be in business is not to make money, but to make enough money so that I can use the business to help others.

Now that’s charity. You should have given these examples earlier. When you gave the example of your having employed people to work for you – that just sounded like a completely wrong idea of charity.

That is the SOCIAL JUSTICE portion of contributing to society so that the NEED FOR CHARITY is minimized and so that people can stand up on their own two feet.

The social justice doesn’t consist of the economic system or the businesses that you own,it consists of you,as a Christian,doing good things out of your own heart,by means of your businesses.
Even if you lost your businesses,you would still probably be generous to those in need,helping them personally. That is what really matters. On the other hand,your businesses would not be examples of social justice without you or someone with morals like yours. Charity is personal,and it flows from the heart. It should not be contingent upon work-systems,economic theories,or programs. We have to give priority to personal charity as it is commanded by God,because that is what social justice boils down to – a man obeying God’s commandment. There’s no need to hinge the ideal of charity upon an economic system. The economic system will fall,and the ideal of charity should not fall with it.
Economic practices don’t justify themselves morally just because they seem to be working well for society. It’s persons who have God’s justice residing within them who can put their economic practices to charitable use.

 

[anthony022071]

You are correct when you say that capitalism is higher than personal charity.

I didn’t say that capitalism is higher than personal charity. I said that personal charity is higher than social justice in the form of capitalism.

 

[jman507]

jman507;2561441:

You are correct when you say that capitalism is higher than personal charity.

I didn’t say that capitalism is higher than personal charity. I said that personal charity is higher than social justice in the form of capitalism.

Oh sorry, I forgot to throw that not in there.

 

[melensdad]

Economic practices don’t justify themselves morally just because they seem to be working well for society. It’s persons who have God’s justice residing within them who can put their economic practices to charitable use.

Correct, but some economic systems foster the ability to for persons to use them as a tool for social justice. The capitalist system allows those who can produce to produce in excess and create opportunities for others. Essentially it allows for a rising tide that will lift all the boats to a higher level. That is why the poverty in our nation is essentially living in relative comfort as compared to other nations. (which is not to say it is comfortable)

A socialist system essentially precludes using the economic system to do anything other than sink to the lowest common denominator and stifles the ability of those who have the ability to actually produce for the betterment of all. So while a socialistic economic model may eliminate the need for charity in the short term, it is bound to fail long term and then incur greater hardship on those who were previously supported by the system. Not only is there no social justice in that type of system, there is ultimately a greater need for charity.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Correct, but some economic systems foster the ability to for persons to use them as a tool for social justice. The capitalist system allows those who can produce to produce in excess and create opportunities for others. Essentially it allows for a rising tide that will lift all the boats to a higher level. That is why the poverty in our nation is essentially living in relative comfort as compared to other nations. (which is not to say it is comfortable)

A socialist system essentially precludes using the economic system to do anything other than sink to the lowest common denominator and stifles the ability of those who have the ability to actually produce for the betterment of all. So while a socialistic economic model may eliminate the need for charity in the short term, it is bound to fail long term and then incur greater hardship on those who were previously supported by the system. Not only is there no social justice in that type of system, there is ultimately a greater need for charity.

However as the need for charity increases, the ability of the system to dispense charity goes down, until ultimately the system collapses of its own weight into chaos and misery.

(For an example, see “Former Soviet Union.”)

 

[whatevergirl]

During the homily yesterday, my priest said that people that have less than us have a “right” to our excesses. He said we need to give away our excess and not put it in the bank because it according to God it belongs to the poor, and I am being selfish if I keep it.

I thought that our only God-given “rights” were to life and the freedom to serve God and our families. Other than that I thought we were sinners who deserved Hell, and that all the good things we receive are blessings from God, not because we deserve them but because He loves us. They are signs of his infinite goodness and generosity.

But now the Church I love and thought I knew is talking about the “right to healthcare” and that “the poor are entitled to my excesses” and I am beginning to fear that I am exposing myself to Communist ideas.

Am I misinterpretting these homilies and news articles or is there something seriously wrong here?

It’s an interesting topic! I started reading a lot of Christian/Catholic books on this very subject a while back, and the Catholic perspective is…it’s really not our money. We are merely passing through…we need to be wise ‘stewards’ over our money and surplus, but we are not really the ‘owners’ of anything. We are merely stewards who God entrusts.

I do think it’s important to pray for dicernment of who God is calling you to share your surplus with–not every charity is well intentioned, even though they appear that way on the surface. But, changing my attitude about ‘my’ things or ‘my’ money…to it’s all God’s gifts to me…and they are on loan…really changed my life for the positive. Just my 2 cents.