Does anyone have a "Right" to my money?

[anthony022071]

I’m not the one who posts in Dark Red.

Fine. I’ll post in blue.

You seem to have conflated several ideas – can you untangle them?

The Church upholds Social Justice – which is defined as correcting the underlying conditions that make so much charity necessary.

That’s fine,just so long as people give priority to their own personal justice in obeying God’s commandments.

To date, no one has come up with an effective form of Social Justice other than education and an expanding economy to create jobs for the poor.

The best form of justice is that found in the Gospels.

The communists and socialists never produced a Social Justice program.

The socialists have produced many programs.

Making people self-supporting may not be the highest good, but it’s right up there.

That’s true. But personal charity is the higher good. Self-sufficiency is not a Christian ideal,but mutual dependency in charity is,and dependency upon God is.

Then why bring in the old Social Justice line of the communists and socialists?

Because some capitalists are doing the same kind of thing that communists and socialists do – equating social justice and charity with their economic theories,work-systems,programs.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s fine,just so long as people give priority to their own personal justice in obeying God’s commandments.

I don’t even know what that means, “give priority to their own personal justice.”

And which commandments are we not obeying?

The best form of justice is that found in the Gospels.

Are we talking about Pilate’s condemnation of Christ?

On the other hand, if we look in Acts, we see where the Apostles orginally set up a community where everyone gave everything he had to the Church, and they doled it out to the members – and that didn’t work.

The socialists have produced many programs

Feel free to cite a socialist or communist Social Justice program.

That’s true. But personal charity is the higher good. Self-sufficiency is not a Christian ideal,but mutual dependency in charity is,and dependency upon God is.

No – mutual dependency on charity is not a higher good. In fact, as we see in Acts, it didn’t work.

Because some capitalists are doing the same kind of thing that communists and socialists do – equating social justice and charity with their economic theories,work-systems,programs.

You seem to think capitalism is some sort of ideology, like socialism or communism. It isn’t.

 

[Proletarian]

Where does this right come from? Who will enforce this right? And will this right vary from state to state? And how does one determine what minimun is?

The concept of human rights has been well established by the UN and the Catholic Church. Surely you’re not questioning that fact that every human is endowed with certain inalienable rights?

Here in the U.S. there is a fortune in taxes that are spent on all kinds of social programs designed to do what you speak of. These programs never go away they only take on a life of their own. The idea is not to keep one on welfare and hope to get his vote thereby ensuring a live on the dole, but to give that person a way of making a decent living. We have 3 or 4 generations on welfare and know of no other way of life. We keep voting the “welfare” politicians into office and this failure is self perpetuating. Its a vicious circle and to break this circle would put millions of social workers, politicians out of work. Hmm, the new poor.

I clearly was not talking about the US, but rather about the third world. The third world lacks the economic info structure that is well established in the US. This is where our money is needed (and lots of it), to establish the info structure that is essential for economic development.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The concept of human rights has been well established by the UN and the Catholic Church. Surely you’re not questioning that fact that every human is endowed with certain inalienable rights?

In the theoretical language of the Declaration of Independence, those are Life, Libety and the Pursuit of Happiness. In the more concrete language of the Constitution that becomse Life, Liberty and Property.

Other rights recognized by the Constitution include:

Freedom of speech
Freedom of the press
Freedom of assembly
The right to bear arms
Protection from quartering of troops
Protection against unreasonable seizures and searches
The right to a Grand Jury
The right not to be a witness against oneself
Protection against double jeopardy
The aforementioned rights to life, liberty and property
The right to due process
The right to just compensation for property taken for public use
The right to trial by jury
The right to confront one’s accuser
The right to counsel
The right to compulsory witnesses
The right to trial by jury in civil suits
The finality of jury examination
Protection against excessive bail
Protection against cruel and unusual punishment
The recognition that there are other, unenumerated rights
The limitation of federal power to those things authorized in the Constitution.

I clearly was not talking about the US, but rather about the third world. The third world lacks the economic info structure that is well established in the US. This is where our money is needed (and lots of it), to establish the info structure that essential for economic development.

In many cases we have poured in billions - and got corruption and brutal dictatorships for our money. Not all the problems of the Third World can be solved by throwing money at them – in fact, many of them are made worse by that approach.

 

[Proletarian]

In many cases we have poured in billions - and got corruption and brutal dictatorships for our money. Not all the problems of the .

I beg to differ. The vast majority of aid thus far has been poured into “hand outs” (a massive waste of recourses). There has not yet been a concerted effort to focus aid upon economic development.

 

[anthony022071]

I don’t even know what that means, “give priority to their own personal justice.”

I mean that acting out the commandments in a personal way should have priority over impersonal economic or governmental solutions.

And which commandments are we not obeying?

Are we talking about Pilate’s condemnation of Christ?

Don’t be silly. The Sermon on the Mount,for one example. And some of the parables.

On the other hand, if we look in Acts, we see where the Apostles orginally set up a community where everyone gave everything he had to the Church, and they doled it out to the members – and that didn’t work.

That’s not true. They didn’t change their way of doing things on account of Ananias and Sapphira.

Feel free to cite a socialist or communist Social Justice program.

The very social welfare programs that you are against were instituted out of a sense of social justice. They created bad effects,but that’s what happens when people put too much trust in governments,economic systems,administrations,bureaucracies.

No – mutual dependency on charity is not a higher good. In fact, as we see in Acts, it didn’t work.

It is a higher good. Paul approved of mutual generosity and dependancy among the faithful. It was proof of their unity in Christ.
2 Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9.

You seem to think capitalism is some sort of ideology, like socialism or communism. It isn’t.

It is an ideology when it is theorized,abstracted, speculated upon,and idealized.

 

[BobP123]

As Pat Paulson, the perennial comedian running for President, said once, “My opponent says he wants to spend another $27 billion on poverty. I say, we have enough poverty already.”

Good discussion here by all.

 

[jman507]

The concept of human rights has been well established by the UN and the Catholic Church. Surely you’re not questioning that fact that every human is endowed with certain inalienable rights?

I clearly was not talking about the US, but rather about the third world. The third world lacks the economic info structure that is well established in the US. This is where our money is needed (and lots of it), to establish the info structure that is essential for economic development.

It takes more than money to establish infrastructure. It is the same problem with some schools in the US, it doesn’t matter how much money is infused, until the people are set up to be able to take advantage of the resources. Teachers and adminstration need to be oriented to teach, and the parents need to get the children oriented to learn.

 

[Proletarian]

It takes more than money to establish infrastructure. It is the same problem with some schools in the US, it doesn’t matter how much money is infused, until the people are set up to be able to take advantage of the resources. Teachers and adminstration need to be oriented to teach, and the parents need to get the children oriented to learn.

You may be right. So how do we prepare those in the third world for this new info-structure? Establish training facilities? Guess what… these institutions cost money. No matter which way you look at it money is the answer.

 

[CSN]

We had a priest who had a thing about “big houses.” One day, I said to him, “Father, I have a big house. Do you think I should have given the money to the poor?”

He hemmed and hawed around and finally allowed it would have been better for me to give most of the money to the poor.

“But Father, that’s what I did. In fact, I gave all the money to some poor men – and in return they built a house for me. And I gave them the dignity of earning their money and not relying on charity or welfare.”

While he was digesting that, I went on, “One of the men who worked on the house thanked me – for giving him the opportunity to work with the two master builders I hired. He said he learned a lot on that job.”

Why would you challenge your priest like that? Anyway, with that rationale, why give anything to the poor. You can spend to your heart’s desire and help the exotic sports car driver, the professional thoroughbred dog sitter, and the casino blackjack dealer.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I beg to differ. The vast majority of aid thus far has been poured into “hand outs” (a massive waste of recourses). There has not yet been a concerted effort to focus aid upon economic development.

You’re joking, right?

We have given billions in development loans and grants – and got nothing but corruption and dictatorships.

Let me see if I can explain it – these poor countries are countries. That means they have governments. Governnments make laws. They have power.

No matter what you do in a poor country, you must do it in cooperation with the government. And these governments are very good at diverting, stealing, or misusing all the loans and grants we can provide.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I mean that acting out the commandments in a personal way should have priority over impersonal economic or governmental solutions.

It still doesn’t make sense. I keep the commandments – and I do it personally.

Do you think I worship false gods, or worship the True God in an impersonal way?

[Don’t be silly. The Sermon on the Mount,for one example. And some of the parables.

And how am I violating the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount? Which parables am I somehow violating?

That’s not true. They didn’t change their way of doing things on account of Ananias and Sapphira.

Shame on you for that bit of misdirection!

No one said they changed their ways “on account of Ananias and Sapphira.” They changed their ways first of all because of complaints. (see Acts 6, 1-7) and finally because it didn’t work Luke, writing of this communal system, makes it perfectly clear that it was no longer practiced at the time he was writing.

The very social welfare programs that you are against were instituted out of a sense of social justice. They created bad effects,but that’s what happens when people put too much trust in governments,economic systems,administrations,bureaucracies.

Ah, you admit the bad effects, but that’s okay because they were ideologically correct?

It’s a bad system, it has locked tens of millions into poverty, and it ain’t getting better.

It is a higher good. Paul approved of mutual generosity and dependancy among the faithful. It was proof of their unity in Christ.
2 Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9.

Thessalonians and 1 Timothy.

It is an ideology when it is theorized,abstracted, speculated upon,and idealized

And is gravity an ideology when it is theorized,abstracted, speculated upon,and idealized?
[/quote]

 

[jman507]

You may be right. So how do we prepare those in the third world for this new info-structure? Establish training facilities? Guess what… these institutions cost money. No matter which way you look at it money is the answer.

Training facilities can only help with operational needs, most of the strategic needs that need to be built will never be effectivly taught in a training facility. You really cannot train someone in a training facility to see where the markets are going, and how to change your business plan to meet those needs. Also you cannot train people in a training facility to lean how to network the business and markets the business products. Its hard to tain someone to be able to effectivly manage people. Certainly a MBA is good for technical skills, but one needs to understand the nature of the business, the environment it works in, and how to get people to work takes an integration of experiance, education, intuition, and good judgement.

Also you need a national environment that can allow that to happen. Further more it also takes people to do away with corruption. It takes a government to make laws that allow businesses to grow.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Training facilities can only help with operational needs, most of the strategic needs that need to be built will never be effectivly taught in a training facility. You really cannot train someone in a training facility to see where the markets are going, and how to change your business plan to meet those needs. Also you cannot train people in a training facility to lean how to network the business and markets the business products. Its hard to tain someone to be able to effectivly manage people. Certainly a MBA is good for technical skills, but one needs to understand the nature of the business, the environment it works in, and how to get people to work takes an integration of experiance, education, intuition, and good judgement.

Also you need a national environment that can allow that to happen. Further more it also takes people to do away with corruption. It takes a government to make laws that allow businesses to grow.

How do you train dictators not to seize power?
How do you train corrupt bureaucrats not to steal?
How do you train drugged tribal warriors not to kill?

Those are the problems.

 

[John_Mailer]

But now the Church I love and thought I knew is talking about the “right to healthcare” and that “the poor are entitled to my excesses” and I am beginning to fear that I am exposing myself to Communist ideas.

Am I misinterpretting these homilies and news articles or is there something seriously wrong here?

YES, you are misinterpreting them.
JM

 

[John_Mailer]

I thought you give to the poor out of love for God and mankind, but the way the priest says it, I feel like if I ever spend money on something fun, or save for retirement, medical problems, or financial disasters, then I am robbing from the poor. Maybe I am just misunderstanding him?

Yes, you misunderstood.

 

[Proletarian]

You’re joking, right?

We have given billions in development loans and grants – and got nothing but corruption and dictatorships.

Let me see if I can explain it – these poor countries are countries. That means they have governments. Governnments make laws. They have power.

No matter what you do in a poor country, you must do it in cooperation with the government. And these governments are very good at diverting, stealing, or misusing all the loans and grants we can provide.

Do you have ANY evidence for these claims? Or are these comments simply your own musings?

Are you intent on denying aid to developing countries, or do you have any practical suggestions…aside from flooding countries already wrought with suffering with munitions?

 

[anthony022071]

It still doesn’t make sense. I keep the commandments – and I do it personally.

Do you think I worship false gods, or worship the True God in an impersonal way?

No. What I’m against is the idea of social justice,in the form of an economic system,being better than personal charity,and the conflating,in people’s minds, of charity and social justice (God’s will) with economic theories and systems (the plans of men).

And how am I violating the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount? Which parables am I somehow violating?

I never accused you of violating them.

Shame on you for that bit of misdirection!

No one said they changed their ways “on account of Ananias and Sapphira.” They changed their ways first of all because of complaints. (see Acts 6, 1-7) and finally because it didn’t work Luke, writing of this communal system, makes it perfectly clear that it was no longer practiced at the time he was writing.

Acts 6,1-7 just says that the Greek-speakers complained about their widows being neglected in the daily distribution of food,and that the apostles appointed seven deacons to wait tables,so that they could devote themselves to prayer and preaching. They didn’t cease to live in a communal fashion of mutual dependance and charity.

Ah, you admit the bad effects, but that’s okay because they were ideologically correct?

Of course I admit the bad effects,and I don’t subscribe to socialist ideology.

And is gravity an ideology when it is theorized,abstracted, speculated upon,and idealized?

No one preaches the moral virtues,benefits and reasonableness of gravity.

 

[jman507]

Anthony, if anything when Vern hasn’t seem to built his idea of social justice on economics. The cornerstone of his ideas is that it is broken into two different modes.

"Social Ministry has two main aspects: social service (also known as Parish Outreach) and social action

Social Service is giving direct aid to someone in need. It usually involves performing one or more of the corporal works of mercy. That is, giving alms to the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick or imprisoned, taking care of orphans and widows, visiting the shut-ins etc. Another name for it is charity.

Social Action is correcting the structures that perpetuate the need. Another name for this is Social Justice. "

"Anyone can be affluent, as these stories show. All of us (baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money) can become self-supporting. None need rely on the charity of others (again baring those who have disabilities that prevent us from working, or understanding how to deal with money.)

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place."

Economics plays a role, simply because it trying to make clear paths on how good should be traded. The financially poor who are able may need short term charity in the form of services, but long term they need an economic solution. The real direct spirit of charity from social action is the teaching of values, and how to sustain oneself.

These quotes come from: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155776

 

[stinkcat_14]

jman507 quoting vern (from another thread):

To achieve true social justice, we merely need to inculcate in children the values of work and saving, and an understanding of economics. Everything else needed to end poverty is already in place."

Can we have true social justice if we ignore God? The reason I ask this is because if people work, save and understand economics they will certainly become wealthier. The real problem is how to do this and have people keep in mind that everything that we have comes from God. As I have said many times, in my town we have a 3% poverty rate. However, our spiritual poverty rate is off the map, because 60% of the catholics in our town don’t go to church.