Does anyone have bad stories from their Protestant days?

[kalt]

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. They, like our Orthodox brethren, to not utilize the term “transubstantiation” in reference to it. At any rate, what we believe about the Eucharist in the Methodist church doesn’t matter much to the Methodists. It’s not a matter of being dishonest, it’s a matter of taking a leaf out of Blessed Mother Teresa’s notebook and saying, “God Bless You, serve God by being the best _____________ you can!” God will sort things out when we meet Him.

All Christians believe in the Grace of God. We define it differently, but that doesn’t mean that God’s Grace is not available or non-existent to non-Catholics.

This post is all over the place.

No one claimed that God’s grace is available only to Catholics. ???

Actually, if you compared your belief to someone elses and say they’re the same, though you know they are different, that is dishonest. It might be that they’re lying more to themselves than to Catholics, but saying “I also believe in the real presence”, when you don’t also believe in the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist (which is what the “also” was comparing to), it’s dishonest.

I’ve come to the conclusion, after reading through all of these posts, and those that were posted after), that this use of “also” and “too” is about trying to prove to themselves and Catholics that the Eucharist in their church compares equally to the Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

I haven’t figured out why, just yet, that people who have rejected the Catholic Church and Her doctrine on the real presence in the Eucharist are using the real presence in the Catholic Eucharist as the benchmark.

They reject the Church and the doctrine, so why are they trying to say that their Eucharist is equal? Shouldn’t they believe that their doctrine is better–that **it **is what Jesus meant?

Maybe it is as another poster implied in her post. There is no objective truth in religion. It’s all just a bunch of ideas, and we should all accept every idea as equally good and ultimately equally flawed.

 

[kalt]

SonofMonica,
I believe in the Real Presence. This is from the Episcopal Catechism on page 859 in the BCP.

The Holy Eucharist

Q. What is the Holy Eucharist?
A. The Holy Eucharist is the sacrament commanded by Christ for the
continual remembrance of his life, death, and resurrection, until his
coming again.

Q. Why is the Eucharist called a sacrifice?
A. Because the Eucharist, the Church’s sacrifice of praise and
thanksgiving, is the way by which the sacrifice of Christ is made
present, and in which he unites us to his one offering of himself.

Q. By what other names is this service known?
A. The Holy Eucharist is called the Lord’s Supper, and Holy Communion;
it is also known as the Divine Liturgy, the Mass, and the Great Offering.

Q. What is the outward and visible sign in the Eucharist?
A. The outward and visible sign in the Eucharist is bread and wine, give
and received according to Christ’s command.

Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace given in the Eucharist?
A. The inward and spiritual grace in the Holy Communion is the Body and
Blood of Christ give to his people, and received by faith.

Q. What are the benefits which we receive in the Lord’s Supper?
A. The benefits we receive are the forgiveness of our sins, the
strengthening of our union with Christ and one another, and the
foretaste of the heavenly banquet which is our nourishment in eternal
life.

Q. What is required of us when we come to the Eucharist?
A. It is required that we should examine our lives, repent of our sins, and
be in love and charity with all people.

God Bless!

Please accept that I am not being disrespectful of your beliefs when I say that this is not identical to Catholic doctrine.

Since you don’t believe in the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist, I trust that my pointing out that it is different will only please you. You wouldn’t want me adding a bunch of Catholic things to that doctrine.

 

[emeraldcoast]

As you know, my husband and I have always sent our children to private school and would not want it any other way. I understand that you don’t grasp this being a Public School Teacher, but we like having an (name removed by moderator)ut on our children’s education and we find that we have a little more control in the private schools. The area that we live at now has an Episcopal School, an hour away.

**I have no issues with any of your post, Jane, but I take issue with this rude and nasty statement. You don’t know me well enough to make such an assertion. My son IS IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL!!? I will be sending all three of my kids to private school despite my working in public? So you can turn down the elitist volume a bit, thanks.

Your original statement, that I thought was arrogant as heck, was that your kid is in a Catholic private school and you were appauled that your poor son had to suffer through not receiving holy communion from us Catholics. Duh? That’s the policy of Roman Catholicism? You used to be a Catholic in a former life. Your dad and mom are Catholic, you know we believe that one must be Catholic to receive communion? So you put your son in a Catholic school only to feel hurt when he couldn’t receive. Then you went on to tell him that at least you rejoice in a caring, loving, open, and wonderful liberal Episcopal Church wherein your son could see how real, open folks give the sacraments to anyone.

That just sounds banal and bizarre to me. Why would you send your son to a place that you disagree with theologically and feel he’s excluded? If I sent my son to a Lutheran school, I wouldn’t be hurt when he couldn’t receive communion because I know what I’m getting into. I would also respect their beliefs and tell my son to do the same. I wouldn’t put us on a pedestal as open vs. these close-minded, dim-witted folks.

Also, nobody ever said you were a bad person or that you don’t have Christ. You imply I say as much. I’ve never said that. You and SpiritMeadow and the other people in here with whom I disagree are NOT devoid of Christ. I think the Episcopal Church is seriously defective and dangerous in theology. That is why I personally would not put my children in one of their schools. I wouldn’t have a problem with the Anglican school here as it is conservative and broken away from the liberal Episcopal group nationwide.

Like I said, I take serious issue with your nasty comment about me being a public school teacher. I don’t disrespect your husband’s military career. I applaud it. I would also hope that you respect how I take in children into my class from broken homes, divorces, foster care, ADHD, children of all races, and I teach my butt off, Jane. I teach my kids to California state standards which are more stringent than most private schools. We have the toughest standards in the U.S. bar none. I teach to the standards. I use every learning modality you can come up with. Right now we’re studying Ancient Rome, the mystery cults of Isis, Magna Mater, Mithras, and Christianity. I teach Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, theology, you name it, all state standards. I do it in depth. My kids go FAR in math and my test scores kick butt year after year. I have kids coming back to see me from high school, junior high, you name it, every single week. I make a difference in my kids’ lives. For you to imply that I’m some aloof baboon that hates private schools is pure nonsense. While many public schools are full of rich, spoiled kids that get an education from folks who don’t even have credentials, many private schools are demanding, full of well-educated teachers, and high expectations.

I come home with hours and hours of work when I leave school. I work through my vacations on projects for the kids, power points, making rubrics, lesson plans, analyzing standards, and doing item analyses from software like Edusoft, etc. etc. I’m always working for my kids. More importantly, I give them a place of belonging and I’m there for them, period.

And as for the “having more control in private schools,” that’s horse-pucky. Ask any of the parents in my school if they lack control. They practically run the place! Our principal is on a leash from the parents.

Please don’t imply that I’m closed-minded to public or private or charter school education. I know education far better than you do. I’ve been in the public system going on twelve years taking my lumps and working to be better every day. I take my hat off to teachers in any system, public or private. I “grasp” things very well and I resent your implication that I don’t.**

Scott - You got all that from my post??

Let me make this very clear, I have never questioned your dedication to educating children.

God Bless!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Rant? It sounded more like preaching.

Kalt, there is not going to be any further communication while you post in a way to make it difficult to respond to. I’m happy that others were able to see my points, unlike you. Blessings to you.

 

[Roy5]

B]KALT- NO COMPARISON

 You suggest that my views are somehow as dogmatic as those of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite. I believe that most religions are to be respected even when I don't agree with them. When someone tells me their beliefs that may not reflect my own, i don't say - wait a minute, I belong to the one true church. No, I say: tell me more. I am interested. Catholicism teaches that it alone has the full spiritual truth. I would never claim that for me or my church. I enjoy those Bible studies where different people offer different and often insightul interpretations of this or that verse or passage.

  Yes, there are some religions that I have more trouble with than others. For example, the form of Hinduism that still embraces the caste system bothers me. The form of Islam that oppresses women deserves to be criticized (though most people haven't heard that four Muslim nations have had women presidents or prime ministers (Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Turkey). There have been head-hunter cults in the past, and ancient Aztec and Inca religions apparently committed such atrocities as cutting out the beating hearts of their captives. In the Old Testament we have examples of ruthless genocide against tribes that resisted the Hebrew invaders. And we could go on.

   I deeply admire the Catholic Church when it comes to its work among the poorest, its schools and hospitals, etc. Many saintly priests and nuns deserve the admiration of all of us. I applauded John Paul II when he spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq. My problem is that my mind simply can't believe what Catholics and most Protestants are asked to believe. I prefer a 'big tent' Christianity that permits freedom of thought without being criticized as a heretic of one sort ir another. When Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, he said nothing about doctrine, just how to live. When the man asked him how to enter eternal life, he answered love God and love your neighbor, then gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Too much doctrinal emphasis in modern Christianity, and too little love one another,

   Again, God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

 

[racing59]

B]KALT- NO COMPARISON

 You suggest that my views are somehow as dogmatic as those of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite. I believe that most religions are to be respected even when I don't agree with them. When someone tells me their beliefs that may not reflect my own, i don't say - wait a minute, I belong to the one true church. No, I say: tell me more. I am interested. Catholicism teaches that it alone has the full spiritual truth. I would never claim that for me or my church. I enjoy those Bible studies where different people offer different and often insightul interpretations of this or that verse or passage.

  Yes, there are some religions that I have more trouble with than others. For example, the form of Hinduism that still embraces the caste system bothers me. The form of Islam that oppresses women deserves to be criticized (though most people haven't heard that four Muslim nations have had women presidents or prime ministers (Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Turkey). There have been head-hunter cults in the past, and ancient Aztec and Inca religions apparently committed such atrocities as cutting out the beating hearts of their captives. In the Old Testament we have examples of ruthless genocide against tribes that resisted the Hebrew invaders. And we could go on.

   I deeply admire the Catholic Church when it comes to its work among the poorest, its schools and hospitals, etc. Many saintly priests and nuns deserve the admiration of all of us. I applauded John Paul II when he spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq. My problem is that my mind simply can't believe what Catholics and most Protestants are asked to believe. I prefer a 'big tent' Christianity that permits freedom of thought without being criticized as a heretic of one sort ir another. When Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, he said nothing about doctrine, just how to live. When the man asked him how to enter eternal life, he answered love God and love your neighbor, then gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Too much doctrinal emphasis in modern Christianity, and too little love one another,

   Again, God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

Amen!

 

[Peter_J]

B]KALT- NO COMPARISON

 You suggest that my views are somehow as dogmatic as those of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite. I believe that most religions are to be respected even when I don't agree with them. When someone tells me their beliefs that may not reflect my own, i don't say - wait a minute, I belong to the one true church. No, I say: tell me more. I am interested. Catholicism teaches that it alone has the full spiritual truth. I would never claim that for me or my church. I enjoy those Bible studies where different people offer different and often insightul interpretations of this or that verse or passage.

  Yes, there are some religions that I have more trouble with than others. For example, the form of Hinduism that still embraces the caste system bothers me. The form of Islam that oppresses women deserves to be criticized (though most people haven't heard that four Muslim nations have had women presidents or prime ministers (Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Turkey). There have been head-hunter cults in the past, and ancient Aztec and Inca religions apparently committed such atrocities as cutting out the beating hearts of their captives. In the Old Testament we have examples of ruthless genocide against tribes that resisted the Hebrew invaders. And we could go on.

   I deeply admire the Catholic Church when it comes to its work among the poorest, its schools and hospitals, etc. Many saintly priests and nuns deserve the admiration of all of us. I applauded John Paul II when he spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq. My problem is that my mind simply can't believe what Catholics and most Protestants are asked to believe. I prefer a 'big tent' Christianity that permits freedom of thought without being criticized as a heretic of one sort ir another. When Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, he said nothing about doctrine, just how to live. When the man asked him how to enter eternal life, he answered love God and love your neighbor, then gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Too much doctrinal emphasis in modern Christianity, and too little love one another,

   Again, God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

I’m not going to try to jump into this conversation (especially since I haven’t read kalt’s post(s) that you’re responding to) but I would like to ask you this question: Can you respect our (Catholics’) believe that the RCC is the one true Church, as much as you would like us to respect your belief in Branch Theory or Big Tent Christianity or whatever it is exactly?

 

[emeraldcoast]

B]KALT- NO COMPARISON

 You suggest that my views are somehow as dogmatic as those of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite. I believe that most religions are to be respected even when I don't agree with them. When someone tells me their beliefs that may not reflect my own, i don't say - wait a minute, I belong to the one true church. No, I say: tell me more. I am interested. Catholicism teaches that it alone has the full spiritual truth. I would never claim that for me or my church. I enjoy those Bible studies where different people offer different and often insightul interpretations of this or that verse or passage.

  Yes, there are some religions that I have more trouble with than others. For example, the form of Hinduism that still embraces the caste system bothers me. The form of Islam that oppresses women deserves to be criticized (though most people haven't heard that four Muslim nations have had women presidents or prime ministers (Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Turkey). There have been head-hunter cults in the past, and ancient Aztec and Inca religions apparently committed such atrocities as cutting out the beating hearts of their captives. In the Old Testament we have examples of ruthless genocide against tribes that resisted the Hebrew invaders. And we could go on.

   I deeply admire the Catholic Church when it comes to its work among the poorest, its schools and hospitals, etc. Many saintly priests and nuns deserve the admiration of all of us. I applauded John Paul II when he spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq. My problem is that my mind simply can't believe what Catholics and most Protestants are asked to believe. I prefer a 'big tent' Christianity that permits freedom of thought without being criticized as a heretic of one sort ir another. When Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, he said nothing about doctrine, just how to live. When the man asked him how to enter eternal life, he answered love God and love your neighbor, then gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Too much doctrinal emphasis in modern Christianity, and too little love one another,

   Again, God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

 

[Roy5]

PETER J - AND RESPECTING CATHOLICISM

In response to your question: I have respect for Catholicism as a sister Christian body which does some great humanitarian work and includes millions of fine and faithful communicants. This is not to say that I admire its position that it is the one true church. I believe there is no one true church, and that we can follow both Christ and our consciences.

Be it noted, that I also have the same problem with those millions of Protestants who consider every word of scripture infallible. Would Moses have referred to himself as the 'meekest man who ever lived" or recorded his own death and burial if he actually wrote the five books of Moses? I certainly don't believe that Joshua made the sun stand still or that God ordered Saul to murder every Amalekite, And I often think of a little rime I heard years ago:
 God published a tale of a girl and a ghost, of devils in pigs and his son on a cross,
 Then gave them to man to believe it or roast. Yea, his mercy endureth forever!

 I quote that not to make fun of the Christian message but to suggest how absurd it can sound to many outside of Christianity. The idea that God sends non-believers to hell because of their disbelief or some heresy portrays a God of revenge, not a God of love. And many 'born-again' Protestants teach that wild notion. I believe most Catholics are more lenient with doubters. I hope so because I have my moments....

  My main interest in seeing religion become a bridge and not a barrier between people of different faiths. How much evil religion has caused over the centuries, including both Catholics and Protestants. We all should be penitent for the atrocities that fellow Christians have committed in the name of Jesus.     

   God bless the whole world - no exceptions!

 

[Peter_J]

This is not to say that I admire its position that it is the one true church.

Alright, but (and not to put too fine a point on it) do you respect the Orthodox (if you’ll excuse me for switching examples) opinion that the Orthodox Church is the one true Church as much as you expect them to respect your opinion that there is no one true church? Or is respect a one-way street for you?

 

[kalt]

Kalt, there is not going to be any further communication while you post in a way to make it difficult to respond to. I’m happy that others were able to see my points, unlike you. Blessings to you.

I tried hitting “quote” and it didn’t work. I will post at the bottom.

 

[kalt]

B]KALT- NO COMPARISON

 You suggest that my views are somehow as dogmatic as those of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite. I believe that most religions are to be respected even when I don't agree with them.

Actually, what you posted was that you have a problem with all religions, and then went on to say what they should be - in no uncertain terms

When someone tells me their beliefs that may not reflect my own, i don’t say - wait a minute, I belong to the one true church. No, I say: tell me more. I am interested.

Catholicism teaches that it alone has the full spiritual truth. I would never claim that for me or my church.

COLOR=“red”]And then tell us all how every religion has something wrong with it. Of course you are gracious enough to tell us all how we can clean up our act by changing our religion to your match your opinion of what it should be.

I enjoy those Bible studies where different people offer different and often insightul interpretations of this or that verse or passage.

  Yes, there are some religions that I have more trouble with than others. For example, the form of Hinduism that still embraces the caste system bothers me. The form of Islam that oppresses women deserves to be criticized (though most people haven't heard that four Muslim nations have had women presidents or prime ministers (Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Turkey). There have been head-hunter cults in the past, and ancient Aztec and Inca religions apparently committed such atrocities as cutting out the beating hearts of their captives. In the Old Testament we have examples of ruthless genocide against tribes that resisted the Hebrew invaders. And we could go on.

   I deeply admire the Catholic Church when it comes to its work among the poorest, its schools and hospitals, etc. Many saintly priests and nuns deserve the admiration of all of us. I applauded John Paul II when he spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq. My problem is that my mind simply can't believe what Catholics and most Protestants are asked to believe. I prefer a 'big tent' Christianity that permits freedom of thought without being criticized as a heretic of one sort ir another. When Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, he said nothing about doctrine, just how to live. When the man asked him how to enter eternal life, he answered love God and love your neighbor, then gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Too much doctrinal emphasis in modern Christianity, and too little love one another,

Again, you are quite adamant in what you believe. You seem to think this is an insult. Why not be adamant about standing by your beliefs? Don’t you believe that whay you believe is correct?

I’m not ashamed to say that I am adamant that the CC is the Church that was started by Jesus. Why would I be Catholic if I didn’t believe that. If I believed that, why would I be anything but Catholic.

I’m sure that non-Catholics are just as adamant about their own believes. Or they should be. If they’re not, they should examine why they claim to believe what they do. Maybe they are not in the right church.
Again, God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

 

[kalt]

kalt:
test

Excuse this post. I was trying something.

 

[Roy5]

KALT - DIFFERENCE WAVE LENGTHS - ONE TRUE CHURCH?

Hm! Reading over your posting that challenges me, you suggest that I am "adamant in what you believe...."

 Not really. I am very open to different ideas and have sometimes altered mine over the years as the result of reading or some dialogue. 

 Our basic difference, I suggest, is that you accept a defined set of truths espoused by your church, and you think that everyone should accept those beliefs - become Catholic, actually.

  As I believe I stated, I don't embrace a set of dogmas that I believe are infallible and everyone should believe as I do. I believe, in fact, that the human mind is incapable of understanding this vast and mysterious universe with perhaps a billion solar systems. As I recall, I compared it to an ant understanding a piano. 

  But humankind needs belief systems of some sort, and I honor all those systems that offer various spiritual explanations, whether it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, etc. I personally accept the basic teachings of Christ, that there is a God who loves us like a Father and asks us to love one another. Yet, I don't pretend to know very much about that God. I believe it was Harry Emerson Fosdick, the great preacher of the  20s and 30s, who said that he could only believe in a God he could not understand. The scriptures tells us that God's ways are not our ways, that they are too high for us to comprehend. 

   My gripe with traditional Catholicism, fundamentalist Protestantism, much of Islam, Orthodox Judaism and other branches of great religions (like Hindus who kill and persecute Christians) is that they think they are the only groups/individuals who possess  the essential truth. That attitude is at the root of much prejudice and some of the horrendous atrocities done in the name of religion. That great scholastic, Thomas Aquinas, for example, wrote that heretics should be delivered over to the civil authorities to be executed! Would you approve of that? That was a popular opinion and practice for centuries leading to the Inquisition and many other crimes that must have made Jesus weep.

  John Wesley summed it up well when he asked that we "think and let think", that if "you love God as I love God take my hand and let us walk together." (I am quoting from memory and may have missed a beat in this.)

   Fortunately, just as Americans have shed much of their racial prejudice of the past, so have most Christians here shed much of their religious prejudice. Fine. Let people believe as they will, but be on guard against those who are so convinced that they have the one true religion that they would try to project it on the rest of us. I recall going to Franco Spain when I was a college student, when Protestants were not allowed to worship. That wasn't so long ago. Interestingly, the three major Europeam fascist dictators of that period were Franco, Mussolini and Hitler, all baptized as Catholics. I make nothing of this, because they certainly were not good Catholics, but I pass it along because there may have a lesson in it.

   My Catholic friends, with few exceptions, attend mass regularly, but they are open-minded, accept what they can of church teachings, and ignore what they can't accept. I guess they would be condemned as 'cafeteria Catholics' - but there are many millions of them out there. The majority of Catholic voters even voted for Obama, despite the strong opinion of most of the hierarchy. Frankly, I worry more about fundamentalist Protestants than Catholics, because they seem to be on a roll. On the other hand, there appears to be evidence that young evangelicals are losing some of the fanaticism and mellowing with the years.

    God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

B]KALT- NO COMPARISON

 You suggest that my views are somehow as dogmatic as those of the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite. I believe that most religions are to be respected even when I don't agree with them. When someone tells me their beliefs that may not reflect my own, i don't say - wait a minute, I belong to the one true church. No, I say: tell me more. I am interested. Catholicism teaches that it alone has the full spiritual truth. I would never claim that for me or my church. I enjoy those Bible studies where different people offer different and often insightul interpretations of this or that verse or passage.

  Yes, there are some religions that I have more trouble with than others. For example, the form of Hinduism that still embraces the caste system bothers me. The form of Islam that oppresses women deserves to be criticized (though most people haven't heard that four Muslim nations have had women presidents or prime ministers (Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Turkey). There have been head-hunter cults in the past, and ancient Aztec and Inca religions apparently committed such atrocities as cutting out the beating hearts of their captives. In the Old Testament we have examples of ruthless genocide against tribes that resisted the Hebrew invaders. And we could go on.

   I deeply admire the Catholic Church when it comes to its work among the poorest, its schools and hospitals, etc. Many saintly priests and nuns deserve the admiration of all of us. I applauded John Paul II when he spoke out against the US invasion of Iraq. My problem is that my mind simply can't believe what Catholics and most Protestants are asked to believe. I prefer a 'big tent' Christianity that permits freedom of thought without being criticized as a heretic of one sort ir another. When Jesus preached his Sermon on the Mount, he said nothing about doctrine, just how to live. When the man asked him how to enter eternal life, he answered love God and love your neighbor, then gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Too much doctrinal emphasis in modern Christianity, and too little love one another,

   Again, God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

I very much agree. This claiming of only my church is the true church is so divisive. Certainly I’ve never heard a single RC in real life say such a thing to anyone’s face. What is found here a lot is the extreme position. I was prompted by another once Catholic now Episcopalian at my church to investigate the accords reached by the World Council of Churches.

On the issue of the Eucharist, the USCCB had this to say:

“Although we find such clarifications and further considerations necessary, we nevertheless are in agreement that the section on eucharist represents to a considerable degree the faith of the Church.”

This was back in 1984. I haven’t had time to dig further. But it appears we are in a great deal more agreement that some here would have us be.

If one begins to surmise how God might feel about all this pettiness when we all agree on basics, then I think it becomes quite telling. Either God is deliberately withholding some part of the Eucharistic gift because the “correct” forumulae is not being used, or churches are interferring with God’s desire that all believers in Jesus’ presence under the bread and wine be fed is not being met. I’m thinking it’s not God who is legalistic.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Alright, but (and not to put too fine a point on it) do you respect the Orthodox (if you’ll excuse me for switching examples) opinion that the Orthodox Church is the one true Church as much as you expect them to respect your opinion that there is no one true church? Or is respect a one-way street for you?

Frankly Peter I don’t see that as a fair question. I know it seems fair, respect my belief, and I’ll respect yours, but the comparison really fails I think.

In one case one is being asked to respect a humble position that allows God to be God. In the other, one is being asked to respect a very arrogant position that a church claims to have the “fullest” understanding of God and indeed claims it speaks for him infallibly. I don’t see it as the same.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t see it as the same.

Opinion noted.

 

[Peter_J]

On the issue of the Eucharist, the USCCB had this to say:

“Although we find such clarifications and further considerations necessary, we nevertheless are in agreement that the section on eucharist represents to a considerable degree the faith of the Church.”

This was back in 1984. I haven’t had time to dig further. But it appears we are in a great deal more agreement that some here would have us be.

It’s been a few years since I read the WCC’s document, Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry (which is discussed in the page you linked to), but as I recall it’s a really great document.

I haven’t yet read the page you linked, but I’ll try to read it later today.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I tried hitting “quote” and it didn’t work. I will post at the bottom.

Kalt you must first highlight the text you want to include, then hit the quote button to the left of the # on the tool bar. That will quote out what you have highlighted. Hope that helps.

 

[kalt]

KALT - DIFFERENCE WAVE LENGTHS - ONE TRUE CHURCH?

Hm! Reading over your posting that challenges me, you suggest that I am "adamant in what you believe...."

 Not really. I am very open to different ideas and have sometimes altered mine over the years as the result of reading or some dialogue. 

 Our basic difference, I suggest, is that you accept a defined set of truths espoused by your church, and you think that everyone should accept those beliefs - become Catholic, actually.

No. I don’t, actually. You can be whatever you want to be or nothing. It makes no difference to me whatsoever.

  As I believe I stated, I don't embrace a set of dogmas that I believe are infallible and everyone should believe as I do. I believe, in fact, that the human mind is incapable of understanding this vast and mysterious universe with perhaps a billion solar systems. As I recall, I compared it to an ant understanding a piano. 

  But humankind needs belief systems of some sort, and I honor all those systems that offer various spiritual explanations, whether it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, etc. I personally accept the basic teachings of Christ, that there is a God who loves us like a Father and asks us to love one another. Yet, I don't pretend to know very much about that God. I believe it was Harry Emerson Fosdick, the great preacher of the  20s and 30s, who said that he could only believe in a God he could not understand. The scriptures tells us that God's ways are not our ways, that they are too high for us to comprehend. 

   My gripe with traditional Catholicism, fundamentalist Protestantism, much of Islam, Orthodox Judaism and other branches of great religions (like Hindus who kill and persecute Christians) is that they think they are the only groups/individuals who possess  the essential truth.

And you sound quite adamant aobut that gripe (belief).

That attitude is at the root of much prejudice and some of the horrendous atrocities done in the name of religion. That great scholastic, Thomas Aquinas, for example, wrote that heretics should be delivered over to the civil authorities to be executed! Would you approve of that? That was a popular opinion and practice for centuries leading to the Inquisition and many other crimes that must have made Jesus weep.

  John Wesley summed it up well when he asked that we "think and let think", that if "you love God as I love God take my hand and let us walk together." (I am quoting from memory and may have missed a beat in this

   Fortunately, just as Americans have shed much of their racial prejudice of the past, so have most Christians here shed much of their religious prejudice. Fine. Let people believe as they will, but be on guard against those who are so convinced that they have the one true religion that they would try to project it on the rest of us. I recall going to Franco Spain when I was a college student, when Protestants were not allowed to worship. That wasn't so long ago. Interestingly, the three major Europeam fascist dictators of that period were Franco, Mussolini and Hitler, all baptized as Catholics. I make nothing of this,

but you felt the need to bring it up.

because they certainly were not good Catholics, but I pass it along because there may have a lesson in it.

   My Catholic friends, with few exceptions, attend mass regularly, but they are open-minded, accept what they can of church teachings, and ignore what they can't accept. I guess they would be condemned as 'cafeteria Catholics' - but there are many millions of them out there. The majority of Catholic voters even voted for Obama, despite the strong opinion of most of the hierarchy. Frankly, I worry more about fundamentalist Protestants than Catholics, because they seem to be on a roll. On the other hand, there appears to be evidence that young evangelicals are losing some of the fanaticism and mellowing with the years.

    God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

You are adamant in your beliefs. Being wish-washy about other things doesn’t mean that you aren’t firm in your belief that the CC church teaching on the one, true, catholic, and apostolic church.

Or are you telling me that you are open to hearing about that teaching, and that you may change your mind?