Does Anyone Pray to Moses? (novena)

[Brendan_64]

The Roman Rite has incense too, you know.

Maybe some of our priests don’t know that?

 

[MorEphrem]

I can’t answer for the OP but I would say unequivically that there is a great separation between Judaism and Christianity. True, the very first Christians were Jews, but that changed very very rapidly. Within just a few years of Jesus death the overwhelming number of Christians were gentile/pagan converts. Jews never accepted the basic tenents of Christianity,in fact they totally rejected them, and as a matter of fact they still do. You really can’t have much more separation than that. In that regard Christianity is much closer to Islam than it is to Judaism.

To imply that there really isn’t much separation or difference between the two faiths is I feel, demeanibg and insulting to both.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying Christianity is closer to Islam than Judaism simply because Islam does not have theological faith because it inherently rejects revealed truths like the death and resurrection of the Lord, whereas by virtue of being Jewish one does not necessarily lack theological faith.

That being said, the Church has special teaching authority to speak the truth; if the Jews want to contradict the magisterium that’s their own issue. Plus post-Temple Judaism is vastly different from its prior form so I don’t think it’s… fitting to compare orthodox Christianity and the ideas of modern day Judaism.

 

[J_Peterson]

But we are Christians. St. Joseph was Jewish and (presumably) died before the death and resurrection of Christ, but we still call him a saint. I doubt there has ever been a formal canonization, but why should there have to be for a Biblical figure?

My 1st thought was St. John the Baptist. There are also Stts. Joachim and Anne.

Also, wasn’t Elijah taken into Heaven while still alive? Same for Enoch.

 

[opus101]

As a Jewish Convert I find the whole argument very stupid. The Jewish religion does not believe in Saints and these people i.e. Moses etc. are Jewish and are bound by Jewish law, not Christian law, my friend is Orthodox and has this tendency to put them into the “Saint” mode, before one is declared a Saint in the Catholic Church there are various stages that the person has go through before being declared a Saint, as these people lived pre Christ no authority has the right to declare them a Saint - it would be a bit like say the Baptist Church declaring the Dalai Lama a Saint, ridiculous.

THEY ARE NOT SAINTS but In the Jewish Religion regarded as" Righteous and doing the Will of God." and nothing more. Please keep things in context, the Jewish people would be deeply offended if you tried that one on them as they would feel you were trying to Christianise them, you have to respect other religions and not put your interpretation on another religion.

I think you are mistaken on several counts.

Obviously Hananiah, Azariah and Mishael were invoked to praise God in one of the Psalms, so they must have been regarded as souls with God.

The Byzantine (and other Eastern Rites in union with the Catholic Church) do not hold any heretical views, otherwise there would have been impediments to union with Rome. They believe that certain Old Testament figures are now in heaven because it’s true. Between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, Our Lord released all of the righteous from where they were waiting in expectation of the Messiah and salvation.

The Catholic Church itself venerates a number of souls who died before the Paschal mystery was entirely accomplished. These include St. Joseph, Sts. Anne and Joachim, St. Elizabeth, St. Simeon, St. John the Baptist, and there are probably more that I’m not aware of.

Juaism is not "another religion"in the sense that it has no connection with the Church. Christianity is the fulfillment of it, and the continuation of it.

What you said would hold true if someone called a Jewish holy person who lived after Christ’s time (and who died a Jew) a Catholic Saint. But it doesn’t hold true at all for the holy and righteous Saints of the Old Testament who did God’s will and looked forward to the Messiah.

 

[opus101]

I can’t answer for the OP but I would say unequivically that there is a great separation between Judaism and Christianity. True, the very first Christians were Jews, but that changed very very rapidly. Within just a few years of Jesus death the overwhelming number of Christians were gentile/pagan converts. Jews never accepted the basic tenents of Christianity,in fact they totally rejected them, and as a matter of fact they still do. You really can’t have much more separation than that. In that regard Christianity is much closer to Islam than it is to Judaism.

To imply that there really isn’t much separation or difference between the two faiths is I feel, demeanibg and insulting to both.

Oh dear. This is not at all consistent with Catholic teaching.
Anyway, the OP was referring to Old Testament saints, and not to modern Judaism (which is now fractured into many different types.)

 

[Mike30]

I wouldn’t go as far as saying Christianity is closer to Islam than Judaism simply because Islam does not have theological faith because it inherently rejects revealed truths like the death and resurrection of the Lord, whereas by virtue of being Jewish one does not necessarily lack theological faith.That being said, the Church has special teaching authority to speak the truth; if the Jews want to contradict the magisterium that’s their own issue. Plus post-Temple Judaism is vastly different from its prior form so I don’t think it’s… fitting to compare orthodox Christianity and the ideas of modern day Judaism.

What? Jews reject that truth as well. Whats the difference? In fact what do Jews believe about Jesus theologically speaking? Well, they believe that He was a false prophet, reject his divinity and thats really about it. Islam on the other hand believes the following about Jesus:

The Quran states that Jesus was born to Mary as the result of a virgin birth done through the will of Allah, To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc., all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, “God raised him unto Himself”.

So while Islam reject the divinity of Jesus, his crucifixtion death and resurrection, they do accept His virgin birth, His ability to perform miracles and Islam describes a miraculous ascent into heaven which is widely believed to be bodily in nature. They also believe thast Jesus will return to the world and assume leadership of it during a time of great conflict, none of which is accepted in Judaism. So I repeat, in those areas we are closer in belief to Islam than to Judaism

 

[Alfonsus]

Remember, the Latin Church does refer to many old testament personalities as saints and commemorates them in the calendar, although it is optional. This is apparent if we read the official Martyrology of the Latin Church, the newest in publication was revised in 2004.

Inside we can read, for instance:
1 December in Martyrology, we commemorate St. Nahum the Prophet.

Commemoratio sancti Nahum, prophetae, qui Deum praedicavit cursum temporum regentem et populos in iustitia iudicantem.

4 September in Martyrology, we commemorate St. Moses the Prophet and Law Giver.

1. Commemoratio sancti Moysis, prophetae, quem Deus elegit, ut populum in Aegypto oppressum liberaret et in terram promissionis adduceret; cui etiam in monte Sina sese revelavit dicens: “Ego sum qui sum”, atque legem proposuit, quae vitam populi electi regeret. Ille servus Dei in monte Nebo terrae Moab coram terra promissionis plenus dierum obiit.

20 August in Martyrology, we commemorate St. Samuel the Prophet.

1. Commemoratio sancti Samuelis, prophetae, qui puer a Deo vocatus, dein iudicis in Israel munere fungens, Deo iubente, Saulem unxit regem super populum, sed, illo postea a Domino ob infidelitatem reiecto, regalem unctionem contulit etiam Davidi, cuius ex semine Christus erat nasciturus.

9 May in Martyrology, we commemorate St. Isaiah the Prophet

1. Commemoratio sancti Isaiae, prophetae, qui, in diebus Oziae, Iotham, Achaz et Ezechiae, regum Iudae, missus est ut populo infideli et peccatori Dominum fidelem et salvatorem revelaret, ad implementum promissionis David a Deo iuratae. Apud Iudaeos sub Manasse rege martyr occubuisse traditur.

19 November in Martyrology, we commemorate St. Abdias (Obadiah) the Prophet

1. Commemoratio sancti Abdiae, prophetae, qui post populi Israle exsilium iram Domini contra gentes inimicas nuntiavit.

13 July in Martyrology, we commemorate St. Ezra the Priest and Scribe

1. Commemoratio santi Esdrae, sacerdotis et scribae, qui, tempore Artaxerxis regis Persarum, Babylone in Iudaeam rediens populum dispersum congregavit et omni studio enisus est, ut legem Domini investigaret, impleret et doceret in Israel.

29 December in Martyrology, we commemorate St. David, King and Prophet

Commemoratio sancti David, regis et prophetae, qu, filius Iesse Bethlehemitae, gratiam invenit ante Deum et oleo sancto a Samuele propheta unctus est, ut populum Israel regeret; in civitatem Ierusalem Arcam foederis Domini transtulit ac Dominus ipse mox ei iuravit semen eius in aeternum mansurum esse, eo quod ex ipso Iesus Christus secundum carnem nasciturus esset.

And so on (there are Abraham, Adam and Eve, and other Old Testament figures in Roman Martyrology).
And remember also, names in Martyrology can be invoked in the Litany of the Saints.

 

[opus101]

What? Jews reject that truth as well. Whats the difference? In fact what do Jews believe about Jesus theologically speaking? Well, they believe that He was a false prophet, reject his divinity and thats really about it. Islam on the other hand believes the following about Jesus:

The Quran states that Jesus was born to Mary as the result of a virgin birth done through the will of Allah, To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc., all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, “God raised him unto Himself”.

So while Islam reject the divinity of Jesus, his crucifixtion death and resurrection, they do accept His virgin birth, His ability to perform miracles and Islam describes a miraculous ascent into heaven which is widely believed to be bodily in nature. They also believe thast Jesus will return to the world and assume leadership of it during a time of great conflict, none of which is accepted in Judaism. So I repeat, in those areas we are closer in belief to Islam than to Judaism

No.
This is way off.
Islam is full of many false beliefs about Christ.
Certain Jews did not believe Christ was the Messiah, as is the case with modern Jews, but that is not the same as having bizarre beliefs about Christ and Christian figures.
Our whole faith is founded upon the faith of Abraham. The whole Paschal mystery is intimately connected with the entire Old Testament. Christ Himself is the Passover Lamb. The Jews offered sacrifice, and today’s priests offer the sacrifice of the Mass (the one and only Sacrifice of Calvary) every day. There is no priesthood in Islam.
There is so much to say here…

We are spiritual Semites, sons and daughters of Abraham, and the existence of the true Israel in the world, along with the Jews who look forward to the Messiah, who, as we know, will appear (return) at the end of the world.

 

[MorEphrem]

What? Jews reject that truth as well. Whats the difference? In fact what do Jews believe about Jesus theologically speaking? Well, they believe that He was a false prophet, reject his divinity and thats really about it. Islam on the other hand believes the following about Jesus:

The Quran states that Jesus was born to Mary as the result of a virgin birth done through the will of Allah, To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc., all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, “God raised him unto Himself”.

So while Islam reject the divinity of Jesus, his crucifixtion death and resurrection, they do accept His virgin birth, His ability to perform miracles and Islam describes a miraculous ascent into heaven which is widely believed to be bodily in nature. They also believe thast Jesus will return to the world and assume leadership of it during a time of great conflict, none of which is accepted in Judaism. So I repeat, in those areas we are closer in belief to Islam than to Judaism

And again, I will repeat that is incorrect. You can ask an apologist about it. Perhaps the pedantic nuances of philosophic diction are lost on people when they’re not specifically looking out for them but I particularly used the word “necessarily” in relation to rejection of theological faith by Jews. It is not necessary they do so in virtue of being a Jew; however, more so than not an individual Jew probably has a personal (as well as possibly communal) profession that Jesus was not the Messiah.

The fact that the Muslim faith inherently rejects divine truths makes it reject true theological faith. There are no tenets of Judaism that inherently reject any divine truths of Christianity, hence why Christianity can claim to be the fulfillment of Judaism as opposed to the correction (like Islam claims it does to both predecessors). It should be enough evidence in the fact that there are the “Jews for Jesus,” or perhaps the rare group of * Hebraic Catholics, i.e. converts from Judaism who still wear their kippahs as a private devotion and follow Mosaic Law. Since Christ is simply the fulfillment of Judaism there’s nothing really contradictory about it at all.

You needn’t preach the Qur’an to me, I’ve been forced to study it. What it reveals is inherent contradictions to what an orthodox Christian believes (Jesus is not God, his miracles were simply done under the power of God like Daniel’s, he did not bring redemption and he is subject to Mohammad, a greater prophet): it should be apparent in the fact that there can never be something like Muslims for Jesus in which Muslims can retain fully practicing in their tradition and be considered full Christians. However, this was a major thing that lasted well into the 4th century with Syrian Jews in which they would celebrate both Passover and Easter because the revelation of Christ was not seen as a dichotomy to Judaism but the final block to complete it.

I apologize if my explanation previously was not clear, I hope this extrapolation helped to explain.*

 

[Facite]

I once prayed to Solomon involuntarily after I scratched my eye too hard and vision in that eye became blurred. My eye did eventually clear up and I was really thankful for that!

 

[Chatter163]

As a Jewish Convert I find the whole argument very stupid.

Not an appropriate tone for this forum.

Also, you are mistaken. The Church regards Moses and the Fathers of old as being in heaven, as others here have demonstrated. Read up on it.

 

[Brendan_64]

I once prayed to Solomon involuntarily after I scratched my eye too hard and vision in that eye became blurred. My eye did eventually clear up and I was really thankful for that!

Perhaps that could be miracle attributed to Moses? All he needs is one more (unfortunately the parting of the Red Sea doesn’t count as he was alive when he that happened).

Perhaps Solomon ought to be the patron saint of eye injuries?

Apologies if anyone views this as irreverent, I’m just making a joke.

 

[TimothyH]

That is correct. We often bug OT figures; **Elijah, most commonly Daniel and the other Jewish youths of the furnace, David, Moses & Aaron when referring to priesthood, Shmuni and her sons (also known on the old Latin calendar as the Maccabean martyrs), the very general term of the “prophets” and the occasional intercessory requests of Phineas, Eleazar, etc.**The fact of the matter is if they pleased God and are in heaven they can be asked for intercessions.

The one thing that confuses me though is why I’ve never heard a Latin call, for example, Elijah St. Elijah but it’s common to see in Arabic Mar (St.) Elias, etc. I was arguing with a kid once because he insisted Elijah was not a saint so I told him what, he did the will of God as a prophet and then was sent to hell afterwards?

I am the OP. This is great information. Thanks!

Is there a source of information on what saints are patrons of what causes, or some prayers I might look at? Anyone have a link or a book recommendation?

Thanks again!

-Tim-

 

[Mike30]

No.
This is way off.
Islam is full of many false beliefs about Christ.
Certain Jews did not believe Christ was the Messiah, as is the case with modern Jews, but that is not the same as having bizarre beliefs about Christ and Christian figures.
Our whole faith is founded upon the faith of Abraham. The whole Paschal mystery is intimately connected with the entire Old Testament. Christ Himself is the Passover Lamb. The Jews offered sacrifice, and today’s priests offer the sacrifice of the Mass (the one and only Sacrifice of Calvary) every day. There is no priesthood in Islam.
There is so much to say here…

We are spiritual Semites, sons and daughters of Abraham, and the existence of the true Israel in the world, along with the Jews who look forward to the Messiah, who, as we know, will appear (return) at the end of the world.

So the fact that Jews as a whole believe none of it, while the Muslims believe some of it correctly and other parts incorrectly means that we are closer theologically to those who totally reject than to those who accept in part.

Somehow that really doesn’t make a lot of sense.

But then again maybe I.m just stupid

 

[Mike30]

Oh dear. This is not at all consistent with Catholic teaching.
Anyway, the OP was referring to Old Testament saints, and not to modern Judaism (which is now fractured into many different types.)

What is not consistant with Catholic teaching? That very early in Christianity the overwhelming number of Christians were pagan converts? That my friend is a historical fact and I don’t think the Church would argue differently. As to Christianity having more in common with Islam than Judaism, I still maintain that we do. Muslims at a bare minimum accept the virgin birth of Jesus, the fact that Jesus performed miracles and that one day Jesus will return to rule the world.

All three of those are rejected by Jews and have always been rejected by Jews. So even though Islam rejects many tenents of Christianity they do accept others. In my view that would put us a lot closer to Islam than Judaism even though Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Very, very early though the Church moved away from its Jewish roots.

That too is a historical fact.

So what exactly do we have in common with Judaism except an acceptance of the Old Testament and belief in the God of Abraham.

 

[opus101]

Please consult an apologist here. While some of your points are correct, your conclusions are way off base.
This might be because more information is needed about Judaism, it’s relation to Christianity,the special place of Jews as God’s chosen people in the Old Testament, original sin, sacrifice, atonement,etc. , especially in regard to the Old Testament.

A faithful theologian can perhaps clear things up for you.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I can’t answer for the OP but I would say unequivically that there is a great separation between Judaism and Christianity. True, the very first Christians were Jews, but that changed very very rapidly. Within just a few years of Jesus death the overwhelming number of Christians were gentile/pagan converts. Jews never accepted the basic tenents of Christianity,in fact they totally rejected them, and as a matter of fact they still do. You really can’t have much more separation than that. In that regard Christianity is much closer to Islam than it is to Judaism.

To imply that there really isn’t much separation or difference between the two faiths is I feel, demeanibg and insulting to both.

Oh my goodness, I’m afraid you completely misinterpreted that sentence. Of course the rejection of Christ marks all-important schism between Christianity and any non-Christian religions, including modern Judaism. My post was not addressing that point at all. It was in response to a Jewish Catholic who seemed to be saying the Church had no right to regard Old Testament figures as saints because they belong to Judaism. That specific separation between Christianity and Judaism is not a true one.

Incidentally, I would argue that Judaism and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity, and that between the two we have more in common with Judaism (or at least Judaism sans Kabbalah) because of our mutual acceptance of the Hebrew Scriptures and the whole unique history of pre-Christian Israel, and because of the Jewish roots of Christianity in general. The Muslim view of Jesus as just another prophet who came before the definitive Prophet is as much a rejection of the Incarnation and Redemption as any other rejection.

 

[TimothyH]

Perhaps that could be miracle attributed to Moses? All he needs is one more (unfortunately the parting of the Red Sea doesn’t count as he was alive when he that happened).

Perhaps Solomon ought to be the patron saint of eye injuries?

Apologies if anyone views this as irreverent, I’m just making a joke.

Solomon is an interesting character. He is remembered for his wisdom but all of those riches and all of his splendor didn’t come without a price.

When Israel asked for a king, to be like the other nations, God promised that the king would rule with an iron fist. God warned Israel that if he gave them a King that the king would take part of their produce, would make them serve in his armies and force the people to labor at building his kingdom, that he would take their children and their riches and rule them harshly.

Solomon was exactly that king. He was an extremly harsh ruler, and his son was even more ruthless, so much so that the ten northern tribes seceeded and the nation was split in two.

I think Solomon is one of the most misunderstood characters in the Bible. Maybe he could be the patron saint of the opressed?

-Tim-

 

[Mike30]

Oh my goodness, I’m afraid you completely misinterpreted that sentence. Of course the rejection of Christ marks all-important schism between Christianity and any non-Christian religions, including modern Judaism. My post was not addressing that point at all. It was in response to a Jewish Catholic who seemed to be saying the Church had no right to regard Old Testament figures as saints because they belong to Judaism. That specific separation between Christianity and Judaism is not a true one.

Incidentally, I would argue that Judaism and Islam have more in common with each other than with Christianity, and that between the two we have more in common with Judaism (or at least Judaism sans Kabbalah) because of our mutual acceptance of the Hebrew Scriptures and the whole unique history of pre-Christian Israel, and because of the Jewish roots of Christianity in general. The Muslim view of Jesus as just another prophet who came before the definitive Prophet is as much a rejection of the Incarnation and Redemption as any other rejection.

I would disagree as I’m sure many Jews would also…They too see Jesus as merely a prophet and a false prophet at that. At the bare minimum the Muslims see him as a true prophet and one with special standing before God. The Jews do not accept that and for the most part never have. And as far as that goes the Jews also reject the incarnation and redemption. Completely and totally.

 

[opus101]

Have you yet consulted a faithful theologian? Or better yet, your Bishop? Although some of your remarks are correct (or partially so), your conclusion is erroneous.
There is much more to this than one might think.