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e3342
Guest
To those of you who hate Rush Limbaugh, I must tell you, as a twenty-year listener: Rush is a feminist. Does that shock you?
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DeniseNY
Guest
And he knows what to say to really tweak liberals, and they take the bait each and every time.
K
KSU
Guest
Limbaugh today:
rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/12/18/dragged_back_to_the_pope_one_more_time
What’s interesting to me is that even Conservative non-Catholic defenders of the Church, such as Limbaugh and Coulter (both a little more intelligent than the average person), are led to believe by the STYLE of the pope’s communication that he is saying new things–things that authentic, informed Catholics know that he is not saying.
For example, authentic Catholics know Francis is absolutely not saying one faith is as good as any other. He never meant Catholics can pick and choose and still get to heaven. “Would you like a younger spouse, or two or three? No problem; join a sect that allows it. Are you a guy that wants to marry the mailman? OK, become an Episcopalian and go for it.”
My point is, I sure hope the Holy Father knows that his style of speaking/writing is causing, at best, great confusion among non-Catholics as well as ill-informed Catholics, and that he thinks on balance he can bring great good out of it.
rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/12/18/dragged_back_to_the_pope_one_more_time
What’s interesting to me is that even Conservative non-Catholic defenders of the Church, such as Limbaugh and Coulter (both a little more intelligent than the average person), are led to believe by the STYLE of the pope’s communication that he is saying new things–things that authentic, informed Catholics know that he is not saying.
For example, authentic Catholics know Francis is absolutely not saying one faith is as good as any other. He never meant Catholics can pick and choose and still get to heaven. “Would you like a younger spouse, or two or three? No problem; join a sect that allows it. Are you a guy that wants to marry the mailman? OK, become an Episcopalian and go for it.”
My point is, I sure hope the Holy Father knows that his style of speaking/writing is causing, at best, great confusion among non-Catholics as well as ill-informed Catholics, and that he thinks on balance he can bring great good out of it.
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CaptFun
Guest
Interesting last thought. The document Evangelii Gaudium is directed to the world, but addressed to the faithful. Only a small segment of it touched on worldly economics - and it was faithful (as far as it went) to the Catechism.
It’s passing over Communism and Socialism, and the other totalitarian and atheistic ideologies and concentration upon the “absolute supremacy” of the law of the marketplace (with culturally jarring terms like “trickle down” and “unfettered capitalism” in the English translation) had people like Rush Limbaugh sounding off on a Papal Document (which per the Washington Post** summarized** it as “blasting capitalism” in its headline.
Rush’s response was a ringing endorsement of capitalism as the best economic system and a scathing critique of the economic conclusions of the documents English version as reported by the Post.
rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/12/16/the_lord_does_work_in_mysterious_ways
Pope Francis came back and clarified that he was not a Marxist (reiterating Church teaching and filling in the missing part of CCC 2425 quite nicely by doing so.). But he hasn’t restated 2425 all at once - so others might be confused again. The confusion may keep people asking questions that are good for them to ask.
Someone should email Rush CCC 2425 to make the Church’s distinctions clear to him.
Meanwhile, considering the amount of major media newspeople following and opining upon the Papal/Pundit controversy – and Pope Francis’ personally addressing Limbaugh’s public confusion per the economic section of Evangelii Gaudium in a global statement … I suppose that per this thread … YES … people DO take Rush Limbaugh seriously.
Though of course a good deal of his program is entertainment and NOT to be taken as seriously.
With the Pope’s clarification ( … to which he added he was not offended by … and noted that some Marxists he met were “good people”) the controversy may die down. Even though Pope Francis also reiterated that sometimes the poor don’t get the help they were promised in some Capitalist countries.
Meanwhile Limbaugh has a bit of fun relishing that elements of the MSM are taking the “side” of the Pope, and that Francis was named Time Magazine’s Person of the Year in the midst of the “controversy”. He started one segment of his show off with this bon mot …
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LisaA
Guest
Love it! I don’t listen to Rush’s program so thank you for laugh. I also enjoy watching Pope Francis with his beatific smile creating total confusion among the Leftist media elites.
Lisa
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livingwordunity
Guest
Well said. I agree with most of what Rush says with exceptions like the immigrant situation or when he gives his opinion about the Pope. But, the fact that he can disagree with the Pope shouldn’t surprise anyone since he is a Protestant.
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KSU
Guest
Rush, as already pointed out here and in another thread, didn’t disagree with the pope. As you probably know, Francis said nothing new, and Rush greatly admires Catholicism. Rush disagreed with what Reuters and the Washington Post misled people, including Rush, to believe Pope Francis wrote about the American Capitalist system.
Rush (and shame on him) originally was taken in by the media spin which made Francis sound like a Socialist.
Here, from a transcript of his November 27, 2013 show, is a little of what Rush said later. [NOTE: When Rush says "mistranslated ", he means mistranslated and/or mischaracterized]:
QUOTE
RUSH: I am receiving e-mails from people who are telling me that the pope, his economic writing, has been mistranslated [and mischaracterized, my edit]. Now, my first reaction was, “Come on, this document is too big and massive for it to be mistranslated.” But then I caught myself, and this is exactly what the left does. If they had a chance to take somebody as influential and revered and beloved as the pope and put their words in his mouth, they would do it in a minute.
So now I’m gonna have to track this down, because I have to tell you, what has been attributed to the pope here doesn’t make sense, with 50 years of the Catholic Church. It doesn’t jibe. But it sounds exactly like what your average, run-of-the-mill leftist would say each and every day: unfettered capitalism, trickle-down doesn’t work. I don’t know this pope, but I don’t know that the bishop of Rome speaks in terms of trickle-down. One of the things they’re saying is that the pope didn’t say “trickle-down,” that the correct translation would be “spillover.” He didn’t say “trickle-down.” So there are people that are telling me, “Hey, Rush, the pope was mistranslated,” and my first reaction, “Come on, now.”
But then I had to catch myself… He said something about homosexuals and later they said he was mistranslated? His original statement, he appeared to condone homosexuality…
END PARTIAL QUOTE
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johnmann
Guest
Of course Rush had to backtrack. He has Catholic listeners. No, he didn’t attack what the media said about the pope. He criticized Evangelii Gaudium itself. The exhortation is presumed to have been written in Spanish in which the pope uses the term, “teorías del derrame,” which is the Spanish term for “trickle-down economics.” No mistranslation. Bottom line: Stop trusting Rush with Church teaching.
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livingwordunity
Guest
There is no evidence that Catholic conservatives who listen to Rush trust him on his views about the Catholic Church. Catholic conservatives know that Rush is a Protestant. If you can show proof of a famous Catholic conservative such as Sean Hannity expressing opposition to Pope Francis (I don’t mean opposition to the liberal media spin about the Pope but opposition to Pope Francis himself), then that would be something worth noting. By the way, I just looked it up, and Sean Hannity is still a Catholic. But, since Rush is a Protestant he is allowed to have a misunderstanding about the Pope. All Protestants have a misunderstanding about our Pope, or they would be Catholics.
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KSU
Guest
derrame[der-rah’-may]
noun
1.The portion of liquor or seed lost in measuring. (m)
2.Leakage, allowance for accidental loss in liquid measures. (m)
3.Bevel of a wall at a window or door, to facilitate the entrance of light. (m)
4.Declivity. (m)
5.Subdivision of a ravine or valley in narrow outlets. (m)
6.(Mod.) Accumulation of a liquid in a cavity, or its issuing from the body. (m)
Derrame cerebral → brain haemorrhage
Velazquez® Spanish and English
Don’t you think people check up on the, to be charitable, “stuff” that you spout? You simply ignore all the previous posts to the contrary and stir the pot. No one who wants a serious discussion would do that. Besides, it’s rude.
Maybe a Liberal will convince those who wonder where the truth lies that the pope’s Exhortation really was mischaracterized in English: cnbc.com/id/101302230
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johnmann
Guest
For evidence, see KMU’s comments.
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johnmann
Guest
Teoría del derrame. (en inglés: Trickle-down effect) Econ.; Des.Ec-soc… “La estrategia económica de la década del 90 estuvo enmarcada en la ‘teoría del derrame’, es decir, en la idea de que el crecimiento automáticamente fluiría desde la cima de la pirámide social hacia abajo, sin necesidad de una intervención estatal a favor de una mejor distribución del ingreso. Con una importante dosis de tragedia, la historia demostró que el crecimiento económico, aún obtenido, no se transforma automáticamente en desarrollo social”
mdp.edu.ar/index.php?key=4993
El “efecto derrame”, “teoría del goteo” o “trickle down effect” consiste en que al producirse un crecimiento económico, parte de éste necesariamente llegará a las capas sociales inferiores.
web.usal.es/~anisi/Modelizacion%20II/Laura/trabajos/crecimiendo%20y%20desigualdad.pdf
I think it’s generally a good idea to be more skeptical of Rush’s mastery of Spanish economic jargon than the Vatican’s.
mdp.edu.ar/index.php?key=4993
El “efecto derrame”, “teoría del goteo” o “trickle down effect” consiste en que al producirse un crecimiento económico, parte de éste necesariamente llegará a las capas sociales inferiores.
web.usal.es/~anisi/Modelizacion%20II/Laura/trabajos/crecimiendo%20y%20desigualdad.pdf
I think it’s generally a good idea to be more skeptical of Rush’s mastery of Spanish economic jargon than the Vatican’s.
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KSU
Guest
Well, that’s VERY debatable, depending on the particular translator at the Vatican press office. So far they are anything but impressive!
But Rush didn’t translate anything. Did you just make up that allegation because you can’t dispute the correct translation of derrame in my last post? Here’s more:
‘trickle’ found in these entries
In the English description:
drain away - dribble - leach - seep in
Spanish:
chorrear - goteo - hilo - lágrima - reguero - resbalar
You won’t see “derrame” in actual translations of "trickle"such as the above.
This is taken from a post by Brendan in a CA thread directly on point:
QUOTE
I got some interesting insights on this from an Irish missionary priest who spend 30+ years in South American, including the last 15 in Argentina. He read the exhortation in the original Spanish.
“Derrame” is the term that the Argentines use to describe their own economic meltdown in 1998-2002. Its causes (and the term itself) are not related to US “Reganomics”, but rather address the dangers of globalization. END QUOTE
And how about this: catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=697
johnman, my friend, everything above is irrefutable, so please don’t feel obligated to respond.
This post is for the benefit of those who may be confused by your posts.
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johnmann
Guest
I feel obligated to respond when you spread misinformation. Granted, you can’t be faulted for your inferior knowledge of Spanish economic jargon but then it’s better to not to type and confuse others.
I posted the definition from the Universidad Nacional de Mar del Plata in Argentina and also the Universidad de Salamanca in Spain. I understand that, unlike myself, you don’t understand Spanish but I think you can recognize the English words, “trickle down.”
I’m not sure you read your own link which also translates “teoría del derrame” as “spillover” AND ALSO “trickle down.”
There’s also Fr. Z’s translation: wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/an-observation-for-mr-novak-on-pope-francis-and-trickle-down-in-eg-54/
And how about this (in English): patheos.com/blogs/samrocha/2013/11/correcting-a-correction-of-evangelii-gaudium-para-54/
And finally this definition of “teoría del derrame”: “There was the promise that when the glass was full, it would be transferred over and the poor would benefit from it. Instead what happens when it is full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing comes forth for the poor.”
That last one was from Pope Francis himself: wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/pope-francis-new-interview-damage-control-on-trickle-down-economics/
These are the irrefutable facts. You are claiming that Rush Limbaugh knows better about what Pope Francis meant than Pope Francis himself.
I posted the definition from the Universidad Nacional de Mar del Plata in Argentina and also the Universidad de Salamanca in Spain. I understand that, unlike myself, you don’t understand Spanish but I think you can recognize the English words, “trickle down.”
I’m not sure you read your own link which also translates “teoría del derrame” as “spillover” AND ALSO “trickle down.”
There’s also Fr. Z’s translation: wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/an-observation-for-mr-novak-on-pope-francis-and-trickle-down-in-eg-54/
And how about this (in English): patheos.com/blogs/samrocha/2013/11/correcting-a-correction-of-evangelii-gaudium-para-54/
And finally this definition of “teoría del derrame”: “There was the promise that when the glass was full, it would be transferred over and the poor would benefit from it. Instead what happens when it is full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing comes forth for the poor.”
That last one was from Pope Francis himself: wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/pope-francis-new-interview-damage-control-on-trickle-down-economics/
These are the irrefutable facts. You are claiming that Rush Limbaugh knows better about what Pope Francis meant than Pope Francis himself.
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KSU
Guest
Johnman, my sources were (1) a priest in Argentina who lived through the “spillover” Francis was condemning, and therefore knows what he is talking about; (2) the translation of a Spanish-English translator who, according to Ender, has translated documents written by then Archbishop Bergoglio, now the pope; (3) CatholicCulture.org; (4) two Spanish-English on line translations; and (5) Michelle Caruso-Cabrera, the CNBC (yes, the Leftist CNBC) Chief International Correspondent who speaks Spanish and agrees that some of the English translation of the Exhortation is inaccurate. Further, Cardinal Dolan told CNBC that any English translation which made it appear Francis was attacking America would be a misunderstanding of the Holy Father’s message.
But you say that I am spreading misinformation because of my “inferior” knowledge of Spanish economic jargon." You say that even though you know that my knowledge of Spanish is totally irrelevant; my sources’ Spanish translations and experts in Argentinean economic jargon is what counts and is all that I have relied on. My first two sources above are expert Argentinean sources with credibility you can’t even hope to begin to counter. They alone should be conclusive in a normal debate.
As for my own Internet research of the translation from the Argentinean Spanish “derrame” to English, I find something like this: The “overflow theory” refers to the idea that the economic well-being of companies supposedly benefits the population in general due to the “spillover” of those benefits. Granted, my knowledge of Spanish is very limited, but I can read as well as you, and my findings do in fact agree with what the expert sources provided by Brendan and Ender say.
Nevertheless, you attempt to counter my expert sources with (1) a 1995 Progressive Spanish definition of derrame; and (2) an opinion by Fr. Z, a Latin language expert (and one of my heroes) who unfortunately for you adds this:
QUOTE In the (distorted) English translation the Pope’s criticism seems to land heavily on people who back “trickle-down” economics (which is already a loaded term used by liberals to denigrate a more free-market model). But the Pope really seems to be criticizing, in Spanish, those who think that the “trickle-down” approach (and yes, that term is a distortion) can help the poor on its own or by itself, that is, without people as individuals taking personal responsibility to help the poor…Bottom line: Whoever did the English translation of EG 54 did Pope Francis and the watching world a grave disservice and caused confusion. END QUOTE
Your third source is an article by Sam Rocha (yes, ex rapper, activist and lyricist of Rage Against the Machine), who in an arrogant manner tried to discredit Cathodic Culture’s translation. Again, unfortunately for you, Rocha’s blog readers forced him to correct his “correction” of Catholic Culture’s translation:
QUOTE …my reading of the original post in question was imprecise and misrepresented the extent and nature of the use of Google translate. Some of that imprecision was a result of rather ambiguous prose, but most of it, I admit, was my own haste… I missed the fact that the post seems to indicate that the [Catholic Culture] author did, in fact, do his own translation and counter-checked it with Google, from the Italian. Part of this seems to be because the author is unsure whether the exhortation was originally composed in Italian or Spanish, so he is hedging by using both of them. END QUOTE
You (mercifully) end your attempted response by saying that I am “claiming that Rush Limbaugh knows better about what Pope Francis meant than Pope Francis himself.”
Why do you bother responding to the Spanish experts’ evidence I put forward when all you can do is make up things like that?
In any case, HAPPY NEW YEAR, John, my Progressive friend.
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LisaA
Guest
Great bit of reserach! I think Fr Z has made the essential point, that free market economics or ‘trickle down’ does not INVARIABLY result in reducing poverty or bringing the poor up to a higher standard of living.Nevertheless, you attempt to counter my expert sources with (1) a 1995 Progressive Spanish definition of derrame; and (2) an opinion by Fr. Z, a Latin language expert (and one of my heroes) who unfortunately for you adds this:
QUOTE In the (distorted) English translation the Pope’s criticism seems to land heavily on people who back “trickle-down” economics (which is already a loaded term used by liberals to denigrate a more free-market model). But the Pope really seems to be criticizing, in Spanish, those who think that the “trickle-down” approach (and yes, that term is a distortion) can help the poor on its own or by itself, that is, without people as individuals taking personal responsibility to help the poor…Bottom line: Whoever did the English translation of EG 54 did Pope Francis and the watching world a grave disservice and caused confusion. END QUOTE
You (mercifully) end your attempted response by saying that I am “claiming that Rush Limbaugh knows better about what Pope Francis meant than Pope Francis himself.”
Why do you bother responding to the Spanish experts’ evidence I put forward when all you can do is make up things like that?
In any case, HAPPY NEW YEAR, John, my Progressive friend.
INVARIABLY
I think Pope Francis is brilliant in hiis ability to confuse the Left into thinking he’s one of them. As Fr Z said (and he’s my hero too!) free market economics can and has lifted many out of poverty but it doesn’t mean a market without any restrictions…Darwinian survival of the fittest…nor does it mean that people sit passively waiting for someone else to feed, clothe and house them.
Lisa
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KSU
Guest
As “Fonzie” Fonzarelli would say in his best Spanish, correctamundo!
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johnmann
Guest
KSU, now I can only conclude that you are deliberately misleading in a futile attempt to win an internet argument. You very well know that the section of the Fr. Z quote you cited was where he talked about the translation of “por sí mismo.” In the section where he talks about “las teorías del derrame” he says:
"So, the phrase “trickle-down” does appear in the Spanish in the Spanish form of the phrase… “Las teorías del «derrame»”. That’s “trickle-down” economics."
I agree with Fr. Z. You do not. Those are the facts.
I’m probably the most free market friendly commenter here. I want to privatize just about everything. Social Security, Medicare. I think the VA is socialist and should be dismantled. But I serve the truth before ideology. I cannot lie to myself about what Pope Francis has said. I suggest you take a break from typing and take a good long look at yourself and decide whether you want to serve the truth or whether you just want to “win” internet debates. Follow the lead of your hero, Fr. Z.
"So, the phrase “trickle-down” does appear in the Spanish in the Spanish form of the phrase… “Las teorías del «derrame»”. That’s “trickle-down” economics."
I agree with Fr. Z. You do not. Those are the facts.
I’m probably the most free market friendly commenter here. I want to privatize just about everything. Social Security, Medicare. I think the VA is socialist and should be dismantled. But I serve the truth before ideology. I cannot lie to myself about what Pope Francis has said. I suggest you take a break from typing and take a good long look at yourself and decide whether you want to serve the truth or whether you just want to “win” internet debates. Follow the lead of your hero, Fr. Z.
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bben15
Guest
I never take Rush Limbaugh seriously. Never have, never will.
I’m not much into politics, but I think no one should even listen to him, as due to some of his views, he shouldn’t even have a radio show. He is a moron that should learn to have some charity, especially after calling our Holy Father a “pure Marxist.”
I’m not much into politics, but I think no one should even listen to him, as due to some of his views, he shouldn’t even have a radio show. He is a moron that should learn to have some charity, especially after calling our Holy Father a “pure Marxist.”
K
KSU
Guest
Yes, John, I know what I cited. Maybe, if you would try to explain exactly what your position is, we could get somewhere. You say there was no mistranslation, but NOBODY agrees with you; not even your own source.
This is my position:
(1) Experts in Argentina, Fr. Z, Catholic Culture, Michelle Caruso-Cabrera of CNBC and I (among others I am sure) agree that the Holy Father’s Exhortation EG, at least in section 54, was mistranslated (from Argentinean Spanish to English).
(2) Rush Limbaugh, contrary to your posts, did not translate anything in EG, and neither Rush nor I nor anyone I’ve ever heard of thinks Rush has mastery of or even claimed he has mastery of Spanish economic jargon. He was simply reacting to what the media said the pope had written.
(3) You are playing the straw man game, and flirting with calumny when posting things like this:
No,[Limbaugh] didn’t attack what the media said about the pope. He criticized Evangelii Gaudium itself. The exhortation is presumed to have been written in Spanish in which the pope uses the term, “teorías del derrame,” which is the Spanish term for “trickle-down economics.” No mistranslation. Bottom line: Stop trusting Rush with Church teaching.
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