Does anyone worry that the American Revolution and the Mexican-American War were grossly unjust wars of aggression initiated by Americans?

[Ridgerunner]

I just wanted to state here that the Comanche people and all Native Americans were persecuted in far worse ways than they ever persecuted us. Most of the time, Native aggression was more in reaction to American aggression. I’m not defending what they did, and admit it was very bad. But the Americans were inhumane in their treatment of the Native Americans. If you ever have a chance, I suggest reading Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee. It explains in a lot of detail the injustices done against Native Americans.

Not in an unfriendly way, I suggest reading any number of the accounts of the Comanche reign in the southern plains.Long before “Anglos” moved into Texas, the Comanches first drove the Apaches from the plains into the desert southwest. They then raided Mexican settlements in Texas to the extent that even San Antonio wasn’t safe, and virtually none of the state north or west of San Antonio was. They raided into Mexico itself at least every year, raping, murdering, torturing and enslaving. Mexico had no ability at all to prevent their purely aggressive depredations. Their crimes did not at all originate as a reaction to white mistreatment. They were part of the Comanche culture. The “Anglos” did find ready allies among some of the Indian tribes that had been maltreated by the Comanches for years

There were significant cultural differences among the various tribes. Some have been romanticized and/or applied far more widely than they should be. Wounded Knee was, indeed, a massacre, and unjustified. But it needs to be remembered as well that the Lakota were every bit as merciless at times, even before whites entered “their” territory, which they had theretofore seized from other tribes.

 

[JNdoum]

Not in an unfriendly way, I suggest reading any number of the accounts of the Comanche reign in the southern plains.Long before “Anglos” moved into Texas, the Comanches first drove the Apaches from the plains into the desert southwest. They then raided Mexican settlements in Texas to the extent that even San Antonio wasn’t safe, and virtually none of the state north or west of San Antonio was. They raided into Mexico itself at least every year, raping, murdering, torturing and enslaving. Mexico had no ability at all to prevent their purely aggressive depredations. Their crimes did not at all originate as a reaction to white mistreatment. They were part of the Comanche culture. The “Anglos” did find ready allies among some of the Indian tribes that had been maltreated by the Comanches for years

There were significant cultural differences among the various tribes. Some have been romanticized and/or applied far more widely than they should be. Wounded Knee was, indeed, a massacre, and unjustified. But it needs to be remembered as well that the Lakota were every bit as merciless at times, even before whites entered “their” territory, which they had theretofore seized from other tribes.

I never said that they weren’t bad. I simply do not like how many people (this is not directed at you) simply look at what they did, and do not even know about the horrendous things that the Americans did. Did you know that they would kill women and children in their attacks on Native lands, and in one instance, the soldiers wore the genitals of the women on their hats? Not to mention the fact that the Natives were constantly being cheated out of their land, and really never had a chance to fight back effectively. Many time the Natives acted as just a scapegoat for the Americans.

There were absolutely horrendous Natives, who committed atrocious massacres themselves and had disturbing practices, I’m just saying that it was a two-way street. I’m not necessarily advocating a return of all Native American lands or anything. I would honestly like a bit more integration of modern Native Americans into our society, due to poor conditions often found on reservations, but that’s a subject that I don’t honestly know too much about, and feel about too much to be completely rational when making it, so I will do the smart thing and remain silent on it.

 

[He_Man]

Does anyone worry that the American Revolution and the Mexican-American War were grossly unjust wars of aggression initiated by Americans?

No, it’s just you.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I never said that they weren’t bad. I simply do not like how many people (this is not directed at you) simply look at what they did, and do not even know about the horrendous things that the Americans did. Did you know that they would kill women and children in their attacks on Native lands, and in one instance, the soldiers wore the genitals of the women on their hats? Not to mention the fact that the Natives were constantly being cheated out of their land, and really never had a chance to fight back effectively. Many time the Natives acted as just a scapegoat for the Americans.

There were absolutely horrendous Natives, who committed atrocious massacres themselves and had disturbing practices, I’m just saying that it was a two-way street. I’m not necessarily advocating a return of all Native American lands or anything. I would honestly like a bit more integration of modern Native Americans into our society, due to poor conditions often found on reservations, but that’s a subject that I don’t honestly know too much about, and feel about too much to be completely rational when making it, so I will do the smart thing and remain silent on it.

I’m always a bit puzzled about this “integration into our society” business. Indians aren’t prisoners on the reservatons. They can leave anytime they want to leave. They have citizenship and can take any job they can do. They can live anywhere they want to live in the U.S. I realize that many years ago many of them were exceedingly primitive and perhaps living on the reservations were thought somehow to keep them within their own societies, even perhaps for their benefit. But I really am not seeing a lot of good in their living on reservations now. They seem like self-imposed ghettos to me, and for the life of me I can’t understand why any young Indian would want to stay on them. I have known quite a few Indians in my life, and those who don’t live on reservations live just as well as anybody else in this country.

 

[JNdoum]

I’m always a bit puzzled about this “integration into our society” business. Indians aren’t prisoners on the reservatons. They can leave anytime they want to leave. They have citizenship and can take any job they can do. They can live anywhere they want to live in the U.S. I realize that many years ago many of them were exceedingly primitive and perhaps living on the reservations were thought somehow to keep them within their own societies, even perhaps for their benefit. But I really am not seeing a lot of good in their living on reservations now. They seem like self-imposed ghettos to me, and for the life of me I can’t understand why any young Indian would want to stay on them. I have known quite a few Indians in my life, and those who don’t live on reservations live just as well as anybody else in this country.

I must agree. I honestly don’t know much about the subject. All I know is that I don’t really like the situation, but there seems to be nothing that I can do about it, or that much of anyone can. Or perhaps nobody’s tried, I’m honestly not sure.

 

[aragonjohn1]

American revelution
NO because it was a fight mainly for social and religious freedom ( the backbone of many of of constitution was the writings of st Robert bellarmine and the writings of Plato and a few other philosophers)
Therefore at least at partially justifiable as a just war

Mexican - American war

Yes it was pretty much an unjust war except when protecting civilians and fighting the revolutionists whom you just sold arms and supplies to.

Shalom

 

[IanGE]

In 1982, shortly after I asked Jesus to take over my life and was born again by the Grace of God, the Falklands war erupted. 700-odd Argentinian sailors lost their lives when the General Belgrano was sunk. I was then an Engineer and had been involved in submarine torpedo system design. The Belgrano was sunk by a submarine using my sytem design and I felt personally guilty and packed in my job. At age 21 I flew in the RAF and gleefully dropped bombs and then shot up Communist Terrorist camps in Malaya. Now I realised they too were people! For a few years I was unemployed or worked in poorly-paid “peaceful” jobs.
I then read somewhere that fall of Rome could be blamed on Christianity; Christian Magistrates and soldiers felt just like me, that killing people was a sin. Bad guys took over as magistrates, soldiers and politicians were open to bribery and corruption and this led to the fall of Rome. Later, it was realised that sentencing transgressors to death or defending Rome was not a sin but a duty.
However, in 1982/3 there was a “leak” that Margaret Thtacher could have stopped the Argentinians by diplomatic means but chose to go to war. The Lord told me, “Ian, It is a duty to defend your country; your duty is to design the best weapons that your Defensive forces can use. If your leaders choose to use those weapons in Offense, they will answer to me. Besides, you are not privy to the intelligence they have to assist them in decision making.”
I went back to work for the Ministry of DEFENCE!

 

[Hamlet123]

I have had quite a struggle with my beloved country and wars it has participated in or started. Tom Woods co-authered a book, “We Who Dared To Say No To War”. This was my final read to pull me over to the side that proposes that we have made some terrible mistakes and seem to continue on that path.

What has confused me for sometime is that those who seem to see that it is wrong to take others property and lives via war are so much in favor of taking peoples’ property by force via a strong arm tax system. Governments are ultimately based on physical violence. May I suggest going to the ACTON sight and reading their literature. One easy read is Fr. Sicrico’s new book, “Defending the Free Market” or again, Tom Woods’ “We Who Dared To Say No To War.” or better yet, Bastiat’s great opus “The Law”.

God bless, I hope I have not offended anyone

 

[antunesaa]

Guess I’m the odd man out here.

Yes, I do think the American Revolution was a bad thing. I don’t think it would or could pass muster by the relatively strict standards of a just war. I think the Founders were deist, Freemason traitors of the sort who went on to persecute Catholics in Calles-era Mexico (which, everyone seems to forget, was conducted with American aid). I think modern America in all its vile, Satanic antiglory is the logical fulfillment of the principles on which it was founded.

I don’t worry about it, though. I certainly don’t disobey it. Illegitimate though its founding was, it is now the authority of the United States, and we are enjoined to obey it, except when it commands us directly to sin.

Why was this person “banned”? Because of this post or because he/she wrote worse things elsewhere?

 

[vz71]

Why was this person “banned”? Because of this post or because he/she wrote worse things elsewhere?

Moderator action is not to be discussed.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It should also be pointed out that the myth of the Noble Savage is utterly fictional. Pre-Columbus Native American tribes were continuously at war as badly as the Europeans ever have been, seizing each other’s land and resources, raping and pillaging, you name it.

Humans are pretty weird creatures when you stop and think about it. As a kid, I used to read Genesis and Exodus and wonder what was WRONG with those people. Then I got older and realized that nothing much has really changed. I learned about how Aztecs offered human sacrifices - babies even! And I was horrified and gratified that such barbarism had been put to an end. This was not long after the USA made abortion a “constitutional right,” mind you. I was not old enough to appreciate the tragic irony.

Slavery, genocide, Nazis, communists, Islamists and Imperialists. Isn’t it amazing that we can learn so much historical trivia and learn NOTHING from it?

Solomon said it, “There is nothing new under the sun.”

The utopians seem to believe that if we all just try a little harder, hum “Kum By Ya” a little louder, and give up more of our creature comforts on behalf of Gaia, Mother Earth, that paradise can be achieved here on earth.



Not even.

 

[Hamlet123]

Solomon said it, “There is nothing new under the sun.”

The utopians seem to believe that if we all just try a little harder, hum “Kum By Ya” a little louder, and give up more of our creature comforts on behalf of Gaia, Mother Earth, that paradise can be achieved here on earth.



Not even.

Yes, if there ever was a propoganda success it has been the portrayal of the American Indians as a peace loving people. May I a recommend “War Before Civilization” by the Anthropologist Lawrence H. Keeley. He like so many liberals bought into the notions that the American Indians were above the rest of humans. After studying locations in Europe where war and fightings had taken place he was taken aback when he found idenical evidence convicting the American Indians of being Human.

This does not forgive our past taking of lands but adds insight into what maybe some forgiveness when more data is collected. “We’ve all sinned and fallen…” even American Indians.

Signed, Tonto

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes, if there ever was a propoganda success it has been the portrayal of the American Indians as a peace loving people. May I a recommend “War Before Civilization” by the Anthropologist Lawrence H. Keeley. He like so many liberals bought into the notions that the American Indians were above the rest of humans. After studying locations in Europe where war and fightings had taken place he was taken aback when he found idenical evidence convicting the American Indians of being Human.

This does not forgive our past taking of lands but adds insight into what maybe some forgiveness when more data is collected. “We’ve all sinned and fallen…” even American Indians.

Signed, Tonto

Well, some tribes were more violent and war-loving than others…However a lot of people don’t seem to know that there were cannibalistic tribes right here in Texas.

There are no people on this planet that won’t kill and take other people’s stuff when they get a chance. Or kill others when forced to. Or do a million other bad human actions.

Sinners all of us. Thank you, God, for Jesus.

 

[SanctusPeccator]

By contrast, the Freemasonic-inspired U.S. Constitution dishonors and rejects God by making no mention of the Catholic Religion, no mention of Jesus Christ or his Heavenly Father.

Then why did the American Catholic patriot Daniel Carroll readily sign the U.S. Constitution? Also, why did Pope Pius VI not issue any papal briefs condemning this alleged Masonic-inspired document? His Holiness certainly had no qualms doing so against the First French Republic (cf. Quod aliquantum; Charitas; Novae hae litterae).

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, if there ever was a propoganda success it has been the portrayal of the American Indians as a peace loving people. May I a recommend “War Before Civilization” by the Anthropologist Lawrence H. Keeley. He like so many liberals bought into the notions that the American Indians were above the rest of humans. After studying locations in Europe where war and fightings had taken place he was taken aback when he found idenical evidence convicting the American Indians of being Human.

This does not forgive our past taking of lands but adds insight into what maybe some forgiveness when more data is collected. “We’ve all sinned and fallen…” even American Indians.

Signed, Tonto

This is a bit off topic perhaps, but I’m going to say it anyway.

Yes, Indians were every bit as warlike as Europeans; some were more so.

But there’s another obligatory thought, and it was brought home to me by one of my daughters when she was little. We were talking about Indian history, and she asked me if there were any Indian saints. Well, of course, there was Kateri Tekakwitha, but we can assume without significant doubt that there were a great many others, and certainly not all were Christians.

And so, I said to her that there surely were many of them. She then suggested that she and I, then and there, pray to those unknown Indian saints because, she felt, nobody ever thinks to do it. So we did.

Out of the mouths of babes.

 

[vsedriver]

Guess I’m the odd man out here.

Yes, I do think the American Revolution was a bad thing. I don’t think it would or could pass muster by the relatively strict standards of a just war.

Without a doubt it was a just war. The British were suffocating their colonists. You could not start any kind of industry that would compete with British made goods, all the natural resources could only be sold to Britain, no competing in other markets. You could only import British goods, no other counties products.

No freedom of religion. In many places Catholics couldn’t hold public office or own land.

The taxes were huge and set to suit Britain with no way for the colonists to participate to make the taxation survivable. Britain expected the colonists to pay for the French and Indian War but the colonists got nothing for their efforts.

The colonists negotiated for years for some relief. The F&I War ending in 1763. The colonists were still paying for the war 10 years later when they held the Boston Tea Party. Britain gained all of Canada yet expected the American Colonists to pay for it. The high taxes prevented local taxation for needed community services.

The American colonists did not want to leave. But it was leave or strangle slowly.

 

[Hamlet123]

Then why did the American Catholic patriot Daniel Carroll readily sign the U.S. Constitution? Also, why did Pope Pius VI not issue any papal briefs condemning this alleged Masonic-inspired document? His Holiness certainly had no qualms doing so against the First French Republic (cf. Quod aliquantum; Charitas; Novae hae litterae).

God bless you, I do not know if I can accept your conclustion as your logic is wanting; e.g., just because a Catholic does something does not mean something is right. Popes are NOT infallible when issueing Papel Briefs. Popes have been wrong; they are only infallible when “speaking” from Moses’ Chair on matters of faith and morals.

This being said, I am not saying that the Revolution was an appropriate response to the times nor am I espousing that it should not have been executed. I am saying there is a lot of data necessary to make a conclution regarding this matter; solely depending on the writings of the founding fathers will not be sufficient as they were one-sided.

 

[Hamlet123]

By the way, a note:

I can think of no writing more appropriate to this issue than reading Alexander Solzennietzen’s (I know I spelled his last name wrong - gosh who can spell it right or should I I say write) 1978 commencement speech to the Harvard graduating class. At the heart of his speech was a request that we look at our hearts and our courage regarding moral matters. He notes that the people of his country not being allowed to practice religion are more courageous, more religious, more moral. Maybe we should avoid war and let the warmongers rule; maybe then the Church will grow, look at Africa and Asia and the growth of the church.

I do not know if I agree with what I just wrote but it is a thought I have had for a few years.

 

[meltzerboy]

PART 2, CONTINUED FROM ABOVE:

What do I want? I want Catholics who are WHOLE CATHOLICS to stand up in the public forum, in public office, on TV and radio, and support the WHOLE of the Catholic Faith that bears on public/social/government issues. I don’t want these guys whose Catholicism only extends to a list of 5. Recall how there is an etymological relationship between the word “HOLY” and “WHOLE.”

The world of politics, business, mass media, is, in my opinion, full of very sophisticated, cunning, and persuasive “tricksters.”

When Abraham Lincoln (someone respected because of his utter lack of tricksterism) was a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, he stood up on the floor of House chambers and gave a speech in which he, said, among things, the following, regarding the Mexican-American War that was then underway:

Mr. Chairman: January 12, 1848
Some, if not all the gentlemen on, the other side of the House, who have addressed the committee within the last two days, have spoken rather complainingly, if I have rightly understood them, of the vote given a week or ten days ago, declaring that the war with Mexico was unnecessarily and unconstitutionally commenced by the President[James K Polk]. I admit that such a vote should not be given, in mere party wantonness, and that the one given, is justly censurable, if it have no other, or better foundation. I am one of those who joined in that vote…Now I propose to try to show, that the whole of this,–issue and evidence–is, from beginning to end, the sheerest deception.

To me, this speech should be read by every student in America.

Lincoln, the President credited with saving the Union and ending slavery also stood up to another U.S. president right in middle of a big war and called the president a liar and crook.

To me, this speech should be read and studied right along with the Declaration of Independence. Otherwise, we Catholics end up becoming influenced by non-Catholic powerful forces advocating for the dominance of Big Government and/or Big Business and/or Big Atheism.

I am not worried about the widows and orphans that U.S. soldiers unjust created in Mexico during the Mexican-American War by following the unjust orders of President Polk. They’re all dead now.

I am worried about the President Polk-types of OUR TIME. I see many of them, very active and clever in carrying out yet more of what Lincoln called “sheerest deception.” They are on both the left and the right.

To my mind, only the eye and heart of WHOLE CATHOLICS, not Cafeteria Catholics, can lead us to see and reject the “sheerest deception” of current day President Polk-equivalents.

To my mind, many of these “5 Non-Negotiables” Catholic politicians are Cafeteria Catholics, and really are carrying out “sheerest deception.” Many of them aren’t really pro-life or pro-traditional marriage. They are just doing what comes natural to us human beings: seeking personal power and money and fame.

If Catholics are to participate in politics at all, which I believe is their right, then what you hope for, Bartolome Casas, does not fit neatly into either of the major parties’ ideologies. Therefore, based on these criteria, Catholics would have to be true Independents, not leaning toward either the Right or the Left, in order to voice their political views concerning the moral and social issues of the present and the past.

 

[GEddie]

By the way, a note:

I can think of no writing more appropriate to this issue than reading Alexander Solzennietzen’s (I know I spelled his last name wrong - gosh who can spell it right or should I I say write) 1978 commencement speech to the Harvard graduating class. At the heart of his speech was a request that we look at our hearts and our courage regarding moral matters. He notes that the people of his country not being allowed to practice religion are more courageous, more religious, more moral. Maybe we should avoid war and let the warmongers rule; maybe then the Church will grow, look at Africa and Asia and the growth of the church.

I do not know if I agree with what I just wrote but it is a thought I have had for a few years.

Everybody even if they leave their country thinks that their own people are the best. That’s why when they do leave, they seek out colonies of their same nationality, if those exist.

Based on what little was known about drunkenness, abortion, etc in the 1980s CCCP, I wouldn’t say they were more moral. Courage can mean anything; if it means tolerance if physical danger, it’s no surprise, given their experience in WW2.

As to religion: it’s human nature to seek the Divinity. If people are banned from so doing, they will do so deliberately. If surrounded by religion, they may just let it go. So yeah, maybe they were more religious.

But jus as with the great persecutions, this is not something we should admire or aspire to.

ICXC NIKA