Does anyone worry that the American Revolution and the Mexican-American War were grossly unjust wars of aggression initiated by Americans?

[Contarini]

Part of the definition of a Just War is that it has a reasonable chance of success, and the benefits outweigh the cost.

As we can see from the later Jewish Revolt (which was rapidly crushed), the Jews had zero chance of winning their independence.

But Jesus says “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.” The implication is that Caesar has the right to tax.

Secondly, no one in Rome got to vote. Jews weren’t denied a right others had. American colonists were denied rights other British subjects had (voting, trade with foreign nations, manufacture of certain goods).

Roman citizens had all sorts of rights that non-citizens didn’t, so that argument doesn’t work.

They did in fact vote, although at this point it didn’t mean a whole lot.

Edwin

 

[bilop]

But Jesus says “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.” The implication is that Caesar has the right to tax.

Sure, but the fact that taxation, in principle, is justified doesn’t imply that all taxation is justifiable. If a gov’t taxes 100% of all production (like Stalin did during the collectivization of the Ukraine) and leaves the people to starve, they clearly have a right to revolt. There is no Christian doctrine on what is the appropriate level of taxes, and what is oppression.

Utimately, it is a prudential judgement, like most of Just War Theory, left to the competent authorities. The Colonial Legislatures were competent authorities, and they decided the British were oppressive.

Roman citizens had all sorts of rights that non-citizens didn’t, so that argument doesn’t work.

They did in fact vote, although at this point it didn’t mean a whole lot.

But the Jews weren’t Roman citizens, they were a conquered people. It wasn’t unjust to deny Japanese and German citizens votes in the US election while we occupied their countries after WW2.

The Colonists were British citizens, yet were denied a voice in Parliament.

God Bless

 

[reconman]

That’s an impressive list of reference sources–thanks.

Sorry to be nit-picky, but could you give a few more particulars on the “brutal oppression” that is documented in this sources, and approximately how I might go about finding it.

No, I gave you the sources, read them for yourself.

I happen to be in a very good public library at the moment, so I could probably do this quite easily. What specific articles might I check?

They are all books, not articles. You can easily research them if you wish, since you are in a very good public library.

Again, I’m not asking you to do my homework, because you are not my teacher. We are having a disagreement, and thus it is, with all due respect, your job to make it reasonably easy for me to find documentation for your claims.

Again, I’ve already done that. Do you want me to read them to you as well?

I know about the “Boston Massacre,” for example, but my understanding is that this was an isolated incident and not representative of a broader pattern.

Your understanding is wrong. Read the sources I gave you.

In the Bill of Rights, you say. Since the Bill of Rights was written after the Revolution, and is not usually regarded as a canonical text by Christians, I presume you’re saying that the rights listed in the Bill of Rights are rights found in natural law.

Yes, I am. These rights were given to us by God and were clearly spelled out in the declaration. The bill of rights just put them down specifically on paper.

What I’m asking, though, is where in specifically Christian sources you find the idea that this is so.

CCC 2317: 'Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war…"

Find me an American Catholic theologian that says the American revolution did not fit this description as a just war.

Specifically, I’m focusing on the idea of no taxation without representation, which seems to be clearly contradicted by Jesus’ command to pay taxes to Caesar.

You keep confusing tyranny with Christian principles. I’ve already explained and proved the difference. If you still don’t get it, take your CCC and seek help from a priest. I’ve done all I’m willing to do for you.

And just to be clear: I’m not saying that “no taxation without representation” is a bad principle. I’m saying that I see no Biblical or other theological grounds for saying that it justifies violent revolution, or that it is an intrinsic, basic right given to human beings by God. It’s a good, reasonable way to do things that helps foster justice.

Again, since you do not understand the meaning of liberty, take your ccc to a priest and have him explain it to you.

Even if you refute this, you still have no positive evidence from Scripture or authoritative Christian tradition that “no taxation without representation” is a basic, God-given right justifying violent revolution if withheld. And that’s the point at issue right now between us.

I’ll say it one more time, (for effect), you have an infantile understanding of liberty and personal freedom. Read your catechism and seek help from a priest.

 

[Captain_America]

For the OP;

The Mexican-American War was unjust; the Revolutionary War was just.

YOu might want to enquire about the justice of the Spanish American War and the most recent shameful mess.

 

[da_nolo]

In the American Revolution of 1776-1781, the Americans were all British citizens who had a duty to honor and respect the British government. The British government was not enslaving or raping Americans (White Americans were doing that to Black Americans, but that is a different matter.) They were not carrying out genocide or running concentration camps. The British government simply imposed taxes that some of the people in the 13 colonies did not like. But today, we have taxes that some Americans do not like. There will always be taxes that lots of people will not like. Does taxation really ever justify shooting government soldiers in the head with a rifle–because that is what the American soldiers in the American Revolution did.

About 1/3 of the land in the lower 48 states of the USA was thus obtained by theft and murder. Or so it seems. The professional historians all seem to know this, yet few Americans seem to know this.

And I really never hear anyone asking if the American Revolution of 1776-1781 was perhaps, by Catholic just war standards, an unjust war.

In 2003, Blessed Pope John Paul II strongly condemned as unjust the planned and ultimately carried out 2003 USA and UK invasion and occupation of Iraq. Yet, it seems like virtually no one in the USA paid any attention to that.

It seems like we have been deceived. It seems like we pay no attention to what our Church teaches, and just listen to “patriotic” propaganda.

If you want to judge history, you have to look at everything and accept what you do not have…that which is lost w/ time.

W/ that said; of coarse those wars were American initiated. unjust?

Revolution was not unjust due to the abuse from british law. may be surprised many of the same things that happened then are happening now.

1: unfair taxes: British taxed the heck out of the americas (as a whole) which dwindled prosperity after so many gave up their husbands, their sons, their brothers to fight in the french and Indian war. though viewed as -taxes just happen- these taxes (similar to today) cut the economy down.

1. govt. regulations: what the colonies may sell, may do, may act, etc. were all set in place in a socialist like govt. influence over the economy. laws also reached into colonies’ livelihood by forcing ‘citizens’ to deal w/ soldiers and other officials staying in their homes, consuming their goods (foods, water, etc.) in some cases, rape did occur. in a manner of speaking, it was like slavery (a practiced not just allowed but promoted by british govt. of the time). the abuse from British soldiers are pretty well known/accepted as well. similar to what was depicted in the movie “patriot”.
2. no representation: for all these laws put in place, the colonies - that dozens of times - not once given a voice in the manner they would be governed. they had no voice. this is seen even today in America unfortunately. once more to be clear. the 13 colonies only asked for the right to govern and over see their own selves multiple times. if this was done, there would never been a war.
3. no connection: though largely british (some were not) the people of the colonies were looked down upon by those still resident in the island and by the king himself.

There are other things to have occurred to build to it, but this is the jist of it. All, result of oppression. Fought against in ww2 and mexican revolution of 1910. so was it just? i’d say so.

Still, it is history and even if anyone viewed it wrong…I don’t see it impacting what we should do today. what, you suggest we should rejoin the british empire?

 

[hosemonkey]

It all happened a long time ago, and it will happen again. Quit whining about it.

 

[kkollwitz]

Does anyone worry that the American Revolution and the Mexican-American War were grossly unjust wars of aggression initiated by Americans? Why, no…thanks for asking.

 

[jediliz]

read the Declaration of Indepenece! and you’ll understand why that war was important, though if the King had just granted the request for INDEPENDENCE, there would never have been a war in the first place! And If it weren’t for the Revolutuonary War, we would not have some of the freedoms we still have. I don’t know if Catholics would have any rights…the only colony in Colonial days where Catholics could worship freely was Maryland. Even after the war, that was the only state that Catholics weren’t as ridiculed in…because that’s where Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton moved to after she became a Catholic.

 

[hosemonkey]

read the Declaration of Indepenece! and you’ll understand why that war was important, though if the King had just granted the request for INDEPENDENCE, there would never have been a war in the first place! And If it weren’t for the Revolutuonary War, we would not have some of the freedoms we still have. I don’t know if Catholics would have any rights…the only colony in Colonial days where Catholics could worship freely was Maryland. Even after the war, that was the only state that Catholics weren’t as ridiculed in…because that’s where Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton moved to after she became a Catholic.

Good answer!
I am getting tired of people bashing the USA for all these so-called “Errors of the past.” People overseas and “Americans” here never seem to remember that they owe their lives and the freedom of their countries to the willingness of this country to spill it’s blood on their behalf. A lot of America’s finest lie in foreign graves so that Brits and Frenchmen and even Germans can deplore the way that America does business. The smartest thing that we probably could have done with regard to Mexico would have been to annex the whole shooting match back during the Mexican war. We wouldn’t have had an illegal immigration problem, for sure. Maybe our biggest mistake is to spill our blood for ungrateful whiners who would rather live in whatever slavery is most comfortable for them.

 

[reconman]

read the Declaration of Indepenece! and you’ll understand why that war was important, though if the King had just granted the request for INDEPENDENCE, there would never have been a war in the first place! And If it weren’t for the Revolutuonary War, we would not have some of the freedoms we still have. I don’t know if Catholics would have any rights…the only colony in Colonial days where Catholics could worship freely was Maryland. Even after the war, that was the only state that Catholics weren’t as ridiculed in…because that’s where Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton moved to after she became a Catholic.

WORD!

 

[Hamlet123]

read the Declaration of Indepenece! and you’ll understand why that war was important, though if the King had just granted the request for INDEPENDENCE, there would never have been a war in the first place!

When the Southern States asked for independence and when the Abolishonist asked for independence these two groups were denied by the “King” of the US. The “King” being the President in one case and the Congress in the other. The reason I make this point is to note that, it appears to me, that your argument lacks a sound foundation.

Contrarily, I would suggest ALL governments are based on force on aggression: some as a large group of people - a democracy - as was the American revolution made up of 30% of the people, some as a small group;e.g, an oligarchy and some governments of one; i.e., a Kingdom. So if I am correct; that is, the form of the government does not determine the justice of those governing, then the question is what does? I am coming to the conclusion it is a just people. The Middle ages is a good example of a just society well governed, but it was typically by kingdoms. So, as Aristotle suggested, the people have to be trained to be good. And who can do that? I say the Catholic Church.

And If it weren’t for the Revolutuonary War, we would not have some of the freedoms we still have. I don’t know if Catholics would have any rights…the only colony in Colonial days where Catholics could worship freely was Maryland. Even after the war, that was the only state that Catholics weren’t as ridiculed in…because that’s where Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton moved to after she became a Catholic.

What about Catholics in the South in the 30s, or blacks in Detroit and Chicago throughout most of the history of these two cities? Where not these two Cities very Catholic? Where they not very Patriotic Americans? I think your premise is a slippery slobe.

I am a patriot; not a nationalist. I love baseball, hambergers. I lived in Japan for two years. Those people are wonderful as much as us; not more, not less. We DID have a better system. And (I think) it worked well because we were, in apperance any way, strong Christians. We are no longer. Our God is the Enviroment, our devil is the Free Market. We envy more and oppress people more than we ever did. We even war more.

 

[Ridgerunner]

For the OP;

The Mexican-American War was unjust;

It should be mentioned (again) that Mexico had no more populated most of that country than the French occupied most of the Louisiana Purchase. Many of those areas were already largely populated by Americans, not by Mexicans. In many of those places, Mexicans dared not go because they were controlled by hostile Indian tribes. The Mexican claim to most of it was only nominal.

Further, a good part of California was variously claimed by Mexico, Britain and Russia. Since none of them had actually occupied a significant part of it, none had a better claim to it than did any other, and Americans rightly had a better claim to some of it than anyone because they actually occupied it.

It’s a close question just who actually started the Mexican War, by the way.

 

[mexolic]

I don’t think there’s any simple answer if we would be better off in a so-called Catholic nation. It depends on the leadership as well. But also keep in mind that the war against Catholics in 1920’s Mexico had support from the U.S.

 

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