Does atheism have a Problem of Good?

[snarflemike]

We all know that the Problem of Evil is one that theism must seriously address. Does it follow that the Problem of Good (the existence and meaning and power of the good, the true, the beautiful) is one that atheism must seriously address as well?

 

[dshix]

We all know that the Problem of Evil is one that theism must seriously address. Does it follow that the Problem of Good (the existence and meaning and power of the good, the true, the beautiful) is one that atheism must seriously address as well?

Yes, atheism does need to address this and many other things, but they usually don’t care enough about reason, logic, and clear thinking to bother.

 

[marcaevans]

I don’t understand what you mean here. Do you mean atheism’s conceptual idea that God does not exist?

 

[dshix]

I don’t understand what you mean here. Do you mean atheism’s conceptual idea that God does not exist?

The “problem of good,” essentially, is the Teleological Argument, with a slight variation. Atheists have not answered why the universe is so perfectly formed, and have not explained fine tuning or the marks of intelligent design. They just throw it up to Blind Chance, but that of course is just a last resort argument which really has no weight or proof.

 

[mrcruz117]

Atheism has a problem of morality in general. Not to say that they cant be moral but Sartre and Nietzsche, both atheist philosophers, agree that if God does not exist then all morality is mere illusion. Dostoyevsky phrased this another way, “If god doesn’t exist then everything is permissible.”

That being said, we can move forward from that phrase: Everything is not permissible, therefore God exists.

The fact that an atheist speaks in moral terms assumes the existence of a god to set said morality. Here is a video by Peter Kreeft that should help clarify this abstract concept.

watch?v=ApVYpBwXWLk

 

[marcaevans]

I think it needs to be addressed, I will admit I used to be an Atheist but never gave it much thought back then.

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t understand what you mean here. Do you mean atheism’s conceptual idea that God does not exist?

If you’re referring to the OP, I haven’t really clarified my own thoughts on the question, so let me think out loud (surely a dangerous thing to do!)

If God should not allow that which is Evil (the Problem of Evil) but only Good, then Goodness is something that transcends humanity, for the claim is not only should humans not do evil, but that God shouldn’t allow evil.

But if God doesn’t exist, then Goodness does not transcend humanity.

But then if God doesn’t exist, why do most humans, including most atheists, treat Goodness as something that transcends humanity (so that if God did exist, he sould not allow it)?

This is just one off-hand formulation of the idea, and I don’t claim it’s the only one or the best one. It would be interesting to explore other formulations. But there is a strange double standard with most atheists and good-ness. At some level good-ness is treated as a universal while at the same time that which could give it universality (God) is denied.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I think it depends on how the concept of “good” is being used.

Certainly, many atheistic philosophers argue for different moral theories that are not rooted in divine authorship. These, I’ve found, always have difficulties with addressing the objective nature we perceive in morality and/or its obligations on us.

 

[snarflemike]

There is such a thing called natural selection, and it’s the farthest thing from blind chance as you can get.

If good and evil are just concepts somehow attached to human evolution, than why can’t I ignore them just the way I might want to change my eye color with contacts, or get a nose job, or go flying or scuba-diving. Or are you arguing that good and evil, alone among all evolved traits, has some form of universal compulsion upon us?

If I can avoid evolutionary “rules” via surgery or machines, why am I compelled to obey evolutionary good and evil?

 

[dshix]

But…the universe, the environment, our bodies, etc… aren’t so perfectly formed at all. There are many imperfect things about everything we see, have, and experience.
You think everything is perfect?

And Atheists don’t throw it up to blind chance. It sounds like you’ve never heard a debate or argument given by an Atheist ever. There is such a thing called natural selection, and it’s the farthest thing from blind chance as you can get.

You still haven’t explained fine tuning.

By the way speculating that I have not heard or spoken to atheists is fruitless; both immature and untrue. They always throw fine tuning to blind chance.

By “perfection of the universe” I did not, by any means, mean that the universe is absolutely perfect with no flaws. What I meant is that it has an easily seen design; the fibonacci series is one example, fine tuning is another, the perfect arrangement of the Earth yet another, and countless other examples.

If you can find some way to explain why the Earth is placed exactly in the right place to support life WITHOUT resorting to Blind Chance, you’ve got a winner right there.

 

[dshix]

The beauty of the morality of an Atheist is…they are doing it truly from the goodness of their heart and love and wanting to get along with others and wanting humankind to go forward in a happy and healthy way and understanding that we are all family.

They are not acting morally because they are afraid to go to hell or because they’d have to confess it to someone or because they are being told to or forced to against their will or want.

It seems a truer, purer, kind of morality.

Heh, that made me chuckle.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t understand the question. Atheists don’t see “good” as a “problem”…

Here’s a question for you. If person is born blind, and behaves as a blind person would be expected to behave, is that behavior morally wrong?

If a person is born a sociopath, and behaves as a sociopath would be expected to behave, is that behavior morally wrong?

 

[jonathan_hili]

The beauty of the morality of an Atheist is…they are doing it truly from the goodness of their heart and love and wanting to get along with others and wanting humankind to go forward in a happy and healthy way and understanding that we are all family.

They are not acting morally because they are afraid to go to hell or because they’d have to confess it to someone or because they are being told to or forced to against their will or want.

It seems a truer, purer, kind of morality.

Hi Daddy Girl, don’t mind the snide comments from some posters.

I think the question of the “Good” is concerning to an atheist, especially one who holds naturalism.

For instance, you said that naturalistic morality can be beautiful because it comes from the “goodness of their heart and love and wanting to get along with others and wanting humankind to go forward in a happy and healthy way and understanding that we are all family”. That sounds lovely - it really does - but it makes very little sense. Of course, I’m not denying that atheists feel these moral impulses and believe them and follow them, but such impulses do not - cannot - be derived from naturalism.

Why? Well, all these sentiments: goodness of heat, love, wanting to get along, go forward in a happy and healthy way, understanding, being part of a family, require an objective standard by which they can be assessed as morally good qualities.

How does one derive objective “goodness” from the natural world?

A philosopher once presented some alternative sources for morality. Morality originates and has its force in either:
(a) something less than human;
(b) something solely human;
(c) something above humanity, but not divine; or
(d) something divine.

For (a) we could say the natural world, such as instincts inherent in all species.
For (b) we could say social factors and evolution that “guide” humanity towards behaving in a certain way.
For (c) we could say something like a Platonic form of the “Good”, or perhaps even some kind of abstract universal law.
For (d) we could say God.

Would you ascribe to any of these positions, Daddy Girl?

Jonathan

 

[brendan1986]

But…the universe, the environment, our bodies, etc… aren’t so perfectly formed at all. There are many imperfect things about everything we see, have, and experience.
You think everything is perfect?

And Atheists don’t throw it up to blind chance. It sounds like you’ve never heard a debate or argument given by an Atheist ever. There is such a thing called natural selection, and it’s the farthest thing from blind chance as you can get.

But the term natural selection makes little sense. Since selection implies a selector, but natural is an attempt to negate that. It’s contradictory.

The correct term is supernatural selection

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Atheism does not usually address the problem of Good so much as the problem of Evil. The atheist argument against God is that it’s impossible to understand how evil can be permitted by God. The alternative argument, of course, is how to explain how good can exist without God. Notice that when atheists argue against religion, they always attack the flaws in the lives of religious men and cultures. They never applaud the good. That shows you how they weight the problem of evil against the fact of good. Even good people are supposed by the atheist to be hypocrites, as when Christopher Hitchens vilified Mother Teresa.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

…I get the feeling this thread will be locked soon. Atheism is a prohibited topic

 

[snarflemike]

…I get the feeling this thread will be locked soon. Atheism is a prohibited topic

I would hope not. I’m not asking if atheism is true or not, but simply whether it has a Problem of Good in some way corresponding to the theistic Problem of Evil.

 

[dshix]

Jo Benedict:

For the foreseeable future, there shall be no discussion in the Philosophy Forum of evolution or atheism. Anyone who starts such a thread or revives an old thread on those topics will be banned.

 

[snarflemike]

dshix:
Sounds like I might be banned any moment. In that case, it’s been fun!

 

[dshix]

Sounds like I might be banned any moment. In that case, it’s been fun!

Haha, never fear. Pm the forum mod, and tell him you did not mean to make a thread on atheism because you were unaware of the forum ban, apologize, and give him the link. Not only will you escape banning, you’ll get brownie points!