Does Atheists think of God too?

[LogisticsBranch]

An atheist DENIES the existence of God.
LogisticsBranch;6867446:

Even atheism lies within the sphere of a certain reference to the concept of God. If it denies the existence of God, it must also know whose existence it is denying.

A pleasure to meet you.

quote=4Horsemen;6869208 As they say, the devil has “faith” in the sense that he believes in God.

A pleasure to meet you too!

[/quote]

Yes, it is a pleasure. 4Horsemen, I must admit that I was in a mad rush to catch the train and neglected to use quotes and John Paul II’s name to “Even atheism lies within the sphere of a certain reference to the concept of God. If it denies the existence of God, it must also know whose existence it is denying.” I’ve said it many times to my non-religious friends including atheists, two of which are married to Catholic wives, as they have walked through my front door smiling at the crucifix on the wall. I do apologize for failing to quote it properly in cyberspace.

Welcome home! Back into the arms of the Lord. I’m going to be visiting a dear friend of mine on Saturday that has 8 children. Only four left at home now. She is an incrediable Roman Catholic Mother. Her and I are going to be visiting a dear friend who is dying of cancer. She weighs 80 pounds now. Please pray for Elizabeth. She has suffered a long time. Her husband and children are grief sticken. It does bring tears to my eyes. I’ve known Elizabeth for almost 20 years. Us Catholic women will UNITE and pray to God! Catholic women are STRONG! Jesus gives us the strength to carry on. . . .

When we talk about atheists, we’re almost always talking about explicit atheists – those of us who have rationally considered the evidence and found that evidence insufficient to support the claim that a god exists.

AntiTheist, welcome to my space. It is a pleasure to meet you. Hello. Peace be with you. I was pleased to read that according to an abstract by Chris Tourney, ‘almost half of all scientists in the US are religious’. I suspect we could conclude that we are equal in the realm of science. This does open oneself for further thought .

SAO/NASA ADS
Title: God in the lab
Authors: Toumey, Chris
Affiliation: AA(Chris Toumey is at the University of South Carolina NanoCenter.
Publication: Nature Nanotechnology, Volume 4, Issue 11, pp. 696-697 (2009).
Publication Date: 11/2009
Origin: NATURE
DOI: 10.1038/nnano.2009.321

Abstract
Surveys have found that almost half of all scientists in the US are religious. Chris Toumey explores what this might mean for nanotechnology.
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009NatNa…4…696T

p.s. I didn’t cast a vote on the poll. Thank you.

 

[Dameedna]

Every newborn baby is NOT an theist. An atheist DENIES the existence of God.
A baby can’t reason yet.

An athiest doesn’t “deny” the existance of a God. You cannot deny the existance of something, that doesn’t actually exist.

As an example:

I could deny the existance of a tumor in my brain, but that implies that the tumor actually exists by the very words I’m using. But, if the tumor does NOT exist, then I’m not denying anything by saying, the Tumor does not exist.

And since I (dame), do not have a tumor, when I say “I do not have a tumor” , I’m not denying the tumor. The Tumor, doesn’t exist. That is where the athiest is coming from.

Now you can disagree as to wether God exists or not, but to the athiest God simply doesn’t. A child does not by default believe in a God. Nor do they disbelieve in a God. They cannot believe or disbelieve in a hypothesis they haven’t even been introduced to yet.

 

[tonyrey]

An athiest doesn’t “deny” the existance of a God. You cannot deny the existance of something, that doesn’t actually exist.

You are begging the question. You are assuming God doesn’t exist.

A child does not by default believe in a God. Nor do they disbelieve in a God. They cannot believe or disbelieve in a hypothesis they haven’t even been introduced to yet.

**At the outset both explanations of reality are equally likely. **

 

[Dameedna]

Yes, it is a pleasure. 4Horsemen, I must admit that I was in a mad rush to catch the train and neglected to use quotes and John Paul II’s name to “Even atheism lies within the sphere of a certain reference to the concept of God. If it denies the existence of God, it must also know whose existence it is denying.” I’ve said it many times to my non-religious friends including atheists, two of which are married to Catholic wives, as they have walked through my front door smiling at the crucifix on the wall…

Of course atheism lies within the sphere of a certain reference to the Concept of God.

If people didn’t come up with the hypothesis of a theistic God, then athiests would not have to reject it, and therefore the term(athiest) would never have existed.

But athiests existing, doesn’t mean there is a God . It means there is a human belief/hypothesis that has a group of people, who oppose it. You cannot deny the 'existance" of something, that doesn’t actually exist. You can only deny the existance of something that DOES exist.

As I explained in my post above, the entire sentence “If athiesm denies the existance of god”, implies by default that God exists. This is clever, but it shows an extrodinary lack of understanding of Athiests. I’m not surprised. It is very difficult for people of faith and non-faith to get inside each other’s head.

 

[Dameedna]

You are begging the question. You are assuming God doesn’t exist.

**At the outset both explanations of reality are equally likely. **

Your first comment, is incorrect. I’m not assuming anything. I take a look at a hypothesis, and I either accept it or I reject it.

Your 2nd comment, now you are making a claim, I do not agree with. They are not equally likely. Just an opinion, but perhaps an assumption on your part?

Now you can sit there and tell me as an athiest, what I am doing, how I am thinking, or what is “wrong” with me. Or, you could listen and try and understand. I don’t hate believers, or dislike them, nor do I think they have drawn their conclusions necessarily due to some fatal flaw in their being(though I do think there are a few crazies out there). So why not try and understand, rather than put your own 'beliefs" about athiests ahead of what an athiest is trying to say to you.

You do have the option of saying I could be ignorant. That, is perfectly fine because that is entirely within the realm of possibility.

You could also say, that I have simply drawn the wrong conclusion from the same informatio that you have. Again, this if fine.

But saying I am Denying something implies, that I know something to be “true” or that it “exists” and I am denying it. This is not correct.

Wether or not there is or is not a God, all athiesm really is, is a rejection of some-one elses hypothesis. Some-one elses, belief, and some-one elses idea. We don’t make assumptions, we draw conclusions, that are different than yours.

 

[tonyrey]

Your first comment, is incorrect. I’m not assuming anything. I take a look at a hypothesis, and I either accept it or I reject it.

You clearly stated:

You cannot deny the existence of something, that doesn’t actually exist.

Your 2nd comment, now you are making a claim, I do not agree with. They are not equally likely. Just an opinion, but perhaps an assumption on your part?

You are overlooking the words “At the outset”…

Now you can sit there and tell me as an athiest, what I am doing, how I am thinking, or what is “wrong” with me. Or, you could listen and try and understand. I don’t hate believers, or dislike them, nor do I think they have drawn their conclusions necessarily due to some fatal flaw in their being(though I do think there are a few crazies out there). So why not try and understand, rather than put your own 'beliefs" about athiests ahead of what an athiest is trying to say to you.

Methinks you are oversensitive. You are imputing to me motives I do not have. Precisely when and where have I put my beliefs about atheists ahead of what an atheist is trying to say to you?

 

[Dameedna]

You clearly stated:

You are overlooking the words “At the outset”…

Tonyrey, It is not possible to deny the existance, of something that does not exist? Would you agree with that statement logically?

I could be “ignorant” about something existing. I could draw a conclusion about something not existing, but be wrong. But can I deny the existance, of something that doesn’t exist?

Before making any claims about my assumptions, I want to be clear about why this statement is illogical. Do I deny I have a tumor? Or do I simply not have one?

Methinks you are oversensitive. You are imputing to me motives I do not have. Precisely when and where have I put my beliefs about atheists ahead of what an atheist is trying to say to you?

You have claimed that I am making assumptions, therefore you are telling me what I am thinking, or doing. I’m asking, that instead of you telling me what I’m doing or thinking, that perhaps you could try and listen and understand(or ask me more questions).

I’m not making assumptions about a God, and I’m not denying anything about a God(other topics are up for debate). So what is it, exactly that I’m doing you might ask? I’ve already answered that, but can clarify if you care. lol!! Either way, it’s all good, and has nothing to do with your personal beliefs, whatever they are.

Here’s a story for you along the same lines.

A good friend of mine, who is involved in Catholic education, told me about a visit their school had(higher ed) with a muslim cleric. The muslim, proceeded to tell all catholics there that they were ‘actually’ muslims, and were simply in denial of Gods great truth.

The Catholics were all suitably, unimpressed and irritated. The Catholics, were not in denial of anything. They disagreed with the muslim cleric. They weren’t making assumptions about mohammed not being a prophet they disagreed with those that claimed he was.

 

[tonyrey]

You are overlooking the words “At the outset”.

You obviously cannot deny the existence of something that doesn’t exist but the question still remains as to **whether **God exists.

Before making any claims about my assumptions, I want to be clear about why this statement is illogical. Do I deny I have a tumor? Or do I simply not have one?

It is not necessary to deny that you have a tumour **if the subject has not been raised.
**.

You have claimed that I am making assumptions, therefore you are telling me what I am thinking, or doing.

All I have claimed is that you are assuming God does not exist - nothing more - on the basis of your statement:

You cannot deny the existence of something, that doesn’t actually exist.

If the subject of God has not been raised this is a valid starting point.
If the subject of God has been already raised and you deny that God exists it is an assumption.

 

[Dameedna]

All I have claimed is that you are assuming God does not exist - nothing more - on the basis of your statement:

I’m not assuming anything. Religions have created a hypothesis, I disagree with it.

What may or may not be true, is up for debate. Me disagreeing with thiests, makes me an athiest by default. No assumptions needed.

If the subject of God has not been raised this is a valid starting point.
If the subject of God has been already raised and you deny that God exists it is an assumption.

I’ve already addressed this. I do not deny the existance of a God, anymore than you probably deny the truth of mohammeds claims. You disagree, and so do I.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not assuming anything. Religions have created a hypothesis, I disagree with it.
What may or may not be true, is up for debate. Me disagreeing with thiests, makes me an athiest by default. No assumptions needed.

All our reasoning is based on assumptions - apart from our knowledge that we are thinking.

I do not deny the existance of a God, anymore than you probably deny the truth of mohammeds claims. You disagree, and so do I.

To disagree is to deny the truth of the other person’s belief.

 

[Dameedna]

Here’s another way of thinking about it, that may help.

As an athiest, I am not actually making any positive claims at all.If I am not making any positive claims, I’m not making any assumptions either.

As an athiest, I am taking a look at some-one else’s ideas, some-one elses claims, and drawing the conclusion they are wrong.

A few other statements, that run along the same lines.

Athiests reject God.
No, athiests disagree with the hypothesis of a God existing. Since I disagree with the hypothesis, I cannot reject something that I do not think exists. I have to believe something exists, before I reject it.

Athiests cannot submit their will to God.
No, as an athiest, I disagree with the hypothesis of God. Since I disagree with the hypothesis, I cannot refuse to submit my will, to something that does not exist. I have to believe something that requires my submission exists, before I refuse to submit to it.

Athiests, hate god
No, as an athiest I disagree with the hypothesis of God. Cannot hate something that doesn’t exist.

Athiests, cannot have faith
No, as an athiest, I disagree with the hypothesis of a God. I cannot have faith, in something that doesn’t exist.

That’s all, an athiest is doing!! They reject your claims, your conclusions. They make no claims of their own.(explicitly).

It is very difficult to get a mind around a position(as a default) that is so different than ones own.

 

[tonyrey]

Here’s another way of thinking about it, that may help.

As an athiest, I am not actually making any positive claims at all. If I am not making any positive claims, I’m not making any assumptions either.

We have to make assumptions about the nature of reality whether we like it or not.

As an athiest, I am taking a look at some-one else’s ideas, some-one elses claims, and drawing the conclusion they are wrong.

If you are reasonable you need a reason to draw that conclusion.

No, athiests disagree with the hypothesis of a God existing. Since I disagree with the hypothesis, I cannot reject something that I do not think exists. I have to believe something exists, before I reject it.

Correct! You don’t reject God but the existence of God.

Athiests cannot submit their will to God.
No, as an athiest, I disagree with the hypothesis of God. Since I disagree with the hypothesis, I cannot refuse to submit my will, to something that does not exist. I have to believe something that requires my submission exists, before I refuse to submit to it.

Correct!

Athiests, hate god
No, as an athiest I disagree with the hypothesis of God. Cannot hate something that doesn’t exist.

Correct!

Athiests, cannot have faith
No, as an athiest, I disagree with the hypothesis of a God. I cannot have faith, in something that doesn’t exist.

You can have faith in yourself and other people.

That’s all, an athiest is doing!! They reject your claims, your conclusions. They make no claims of their own.(explicitly).

“explicitly” is the key word!

It is very difficult to get a mind around a position(as a default) that is so different than ones own.

Having studied and discussed this question for many years I have no difficulty!

 

[Dameedna]

To disagree is to deny the truth of the other person’s belief.

Wha? No, when I disagree with a person I think they are wrong.

 

[tonyrey]

To disagree is to deny the truth of the other person’s belief.

Which means, to put it more simply, you think their belief is not true!

 

[Dameedna]

Which means, to put it more simply, you think their belief is not true!

Of course. I think they are wrong. I am not, however denying anything. They can believe they are correct as much as they want.

 

[tonyrey]

Of course. I think they are wrong. I am not, however denying anything. They can believe they are correct as much as they want.

And you can believe you are correct as much as you want! If you’re not denying that God exists you either affirm that God exists or you have no opinion on the subject. There is no other possibility.

 

[Dameedna]

And you can believe you are correct as much as you want! If you’re not denying that God exists you either affirm that God exists or you have no opinion on the subject. There is no other possibility.

No other possibility?

I affirm the idea that a God exists. This idea is widespread and I agree the idea(hyptothesis) of a God exists.

I affirm that religions exist. These religions try and explain what , who and why this god exists. These religions are widespread through human society.

I disagree with the hypothesis that god exists. I disagree with the religions that are widespread.

I am denying nothing and I’ve formed an opinion, as a reaction to others beliefs. This, is the other “possibility” that you have missed.

Try again.

 

[4Horsemen]

Yes, it is a pleasure. 4Horsemen, I must admit that I was in a mad rush to catch the train and neglected to use quotes and John Paul II’s name to “Even atheism lies within the sphere of a certain reference to the concept of God. If it denies the existence of God, it must also know whose existence it is denying.” I’ve said it many times to my non-religious friends including atheists, two of which are married to Catholic wives, as they have walked through my front door smiling at the crucifix on the wall. I do apologize for failing to quote it properly in cyberspace.

Welcome home! Back into the arms of the Lord. I’m going to be visiting a dear friend of mine on Saturday that has 8 children. Only four left at home now. She is an incrediable Roman Catholic Mother. Her and I are going to be visiting a dear friend who is dying of cancer. She weighs 80 pounds now. Please pray for Elizabeth. She has suffered a long time. Her husband and children are grief sticken. It does bring tears to my eyes. I’ve known Elizabeth for almost 20 years. Us Catholic women will UNITE and pray to God! Catholic women are STRONG! Jesus gives us the strength to carry on. . . .
.

Thank you for such a welcoming note, Logistics Branch. Coming back to the Catholic faith after several years adrift could only have happened with the help of the Holy Spirit who led me to the books I needed to read after having been immersed in the existential philosophy so prevalent at the time. (True, that there were some Christian existentials).

Of course I will pray for Elizabeth and her family. In fact, I’ll add her name to my parish prayer network. May the Lord be with her in a special way during this sad, difficult time and reveal His great love and Divine Mercy to her and her family. Many blessings to you as well. (Look for little signs–favors–of His Merciful love!)

 

[LogisticsBranch]

This is clever, but it shows an extrodinary lack of understanding of Athiests. I’m not surprised. It is very difficult for people of faith and non-faith to get inside each other’s head.

Hello Dameedna, you are replying for AntiTheist. You seem to be suggesting to me you can read AntiTheist mind or that all atheists think alike. I most definately know the minds of athiests that I personally. They don’t all think alike. I have friends that are athiests as I mentioned in my previous post. This is part of what I wrote to AntiTheist on the second page. ( I suggest reading the entire message.)

AntiTheist, , welcome to my space. It is a pleasure to meet you. Hello. Peace be with you. I was pleased to read that according to an abstract by Chris Tourney, ‘almost half of all scientists in the US are religious’. I suspect we could conclude that we are equal in the realm of science. This does open oneself for further thought .

SAO/NASA ADS
Title: God in the lab
Authors: Toumey, Chris
Affiliation: AA(Chris Toumey is at the University of South Carolina NanoCenter.
Publication: Nature Nanotechnology, Volume 4, Issue 11, pp. 696-697 (2009).
Publication Date: 11/2009
Origin: NATURE
DOI: 10.1038/nnano.2009.321

Abstract
Surveys have found that almost half of all scientists in the US are religious. Chris Toumey explores what this might mean for nanotechnology.
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009NatNa…4…696T

I do have old male friends that have turned from being religious to non-religious and call themselves atheists. The reason is they think it’s because of science, which in reality we know for a fact that the evidence doesn’t imply such as noted in the abstract from Harvard that was also in the peer-reviewed journal NATURE. I wish to encourage and inform the religous youth of today that it’s a fallacy that “all” scientists are atheists. I’ll end on that note since I don’t wish to discuss atheism any longer. I am satisfied by the research that I have done. Have a nice day.

Thank you for such a welcoming note, Logistics Branch. Coming back to the Catholic faith after several years adrift could only have happened with the help of the Holy Spirit who led me to the books I needed to read after having been immersed in the existential philosophy so prevalent at the time. (True, that there were some Christian existentials).

Of course I will pray for Elizabeth and her family. In fact, I’ll add her name to my parish prayer network. May the Lord be with her in a special way during this sad, difficult time and reveal His great love and Divine Mercy to her and her family. Many blessings to you as well. (Look for little signs–favors–of His Merciful love!)

This is the most beautiful thoughts that I have read today! (A sign of LOVE) You put a ton of joy right into my heart and mind. May God continue to bless you. Thank you for your kindness.

 

[4Horsemen]

.

Sorry, I was having a problem posting.