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Needy1
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According to CCC, the baptism would save the one from the power of darkness. Therefore the baptism would change the one’s life drastically. Right or no?
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Rutherford2
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God willing, I will be baptised soon after my RCIA and shall tell you in truth.
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Cjbhoward
Guest
You would think. But I don’t know how we would “know.”
I was baptized as a baby so I have no idea what my life was like before. In the Bible people were baptized after they were already predisposed to changing their lives. Most adults I know have already realized the truth & have e experienced a big change in their lives.
But the real change is spiritual & I don’t know how we can “see” that change.
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Sophie111
Guest
How would you design an experiment to prove this?
And then you would have to define exactly what you mean by baptism.
I would think that belonging to a community of faith is dramatically different from not.
But then you may be wondering if its “something in the water” alone which I find unlikely myself.
And then you would have to define exactly what you mean by baptism.
I would think that belonging to a community of faith is dramatically different from not.
But then you may be wondering if its “something in the water” alone which I find unlikely myself.
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ConfusedLucy
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I know so many people who were baptized and don’t practice their faith so I’m pretty cynical
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John_Martin
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When you were baptized you were granted citizenship in the Kingdom of God by a person who has the authority to grant citizenship in the kingdom of God. You became a naturalized citizen.
Sometime watch a group of people becoming American citizens and you will see an almost exact parallel with the ritual of baptism.
Citizen.
With all the rights and privileges including the reception of the Spirit of God, the Grace of God, the infusion of virtues of faith hope and charity.
American citizenship does not include those rights and privileges. ( by the way there are many Americans who are not “good” Americans - yet still they are citizens)
John Martin, Citizen of my King’s Kingdom
Sometime watch a group of people becoming American citizens and you will see an almost exact parallel with the ritual of baptism.
Citizen.
With all the rights and privileges including the reception of the Spirit of God, the Grace of God, the infusion of virtues of faith hope and charity.
American citizenship does not include those rights and privileges. ( by the way there are many Americans who are not “good” Americans - yet still they are citizens)
John Martin, Citizen of my King’s Kingdom
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Augustinian
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I was born on Friday night and baptized on the following Sunday afternoon. I think my life’s improved since.
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Edward_H
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Yes, God sees us as sons of His Son.
We may not “feel” any different.
But that’s because we’re egotistical.
We may not “feel” any different.
But that’s because we’re egotistical.
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Lee1
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I personally experienced a big spiritual difference in the two years or so following baptism. I believe there are also other invisible benefits to this as well which we are not aware of.
These benefits can change your life drastically along with the sacraments, prayer and the reading of scripture, and of course practising charity wth others and developing your capability to love others and God.
It’s a package deal I think.
These benefits can change your life drastically along with the sacraments, prayer and the reading of scripture, and of course practising charity wth others and developing your capability to love others and God.
It’s a package deal I think.
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TheLittleLady
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It changes oneself drastically. It infuses grace. It is then up to the parents/godparents/community around the infant to nurture that faith.
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Richca
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Yes, it is by baptism that we can inherit the eternal kingdom of Heaven and eternal happiness with God. Baptism bestows on us supernatural sanctifying grace which is a participation in the divine nature and without which we cannot enter heaven. As St Paul says, by baptism we are made a new creation in Christ, we are spiritually re-born, re-generated as adopted sons and daughters of God and saved from eternal perdition which is one reason why the Church baptizes infants as well. Jesus said that unless we are reborn of water and the spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Along with sanctifying grace bestowed on us in baptism or the sacrament of confession if we have had the misfortune to lose it by mortal sin, God bestows on our soul the three theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity, infused moral virtues, and the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit. All these gifts of grace are supernatural and spiritual so we can’t see them but by faith we believe they are there. Many saints have strongly experienced the influence of these gifts in their souls usually by what are called mystical graces from God. Spiritual writers on the christian life refer to all these supernatural gifts which work in conjunction generally with our own natural gifts and potentialities as the spiritual organism or the spiritual life of grace.
These supernatural gifts God bestows on our souls do not change us from being human beings and creatures of God, but they elevate our nature to a supernatural level of activity and communion with God. Philosophically, they are called accidents because we remain substantially human beings.
The CCC says that no one without a special revelation from God can determine whether they are in a state of grace or not with certainty. Since these gifts are spiritual in nature, they inhere in our spiritual soul so we are not going to probably notice anything outwardly as it were by sense perception although the sanctity of the soul can overflow exteriorly to the body such as perceiving joy in the face and such like among holy people. A good conscience can be an indication of the presence of grace in the soul too especially after a good confession if we have a lot of sins to confess and which we generally feel relieved of a burden or weight on our soul. St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross are two great saints and masters of the spiritual life and who have left us very valuable writings concerning the spiritual life of grace, its higher stages, and mystical graces which they experienced from God. Jesus talked about the ‘living water’ he would give to us becoming a spring of water welling up to eternal life. This is the christian spiritual life of grace and all the supernatural gifts I mentioned above and which the two saints I just mentioned write about.
Along with sanctifying grace bestowed on us in baptism or the sacrament of confession if we have had the misfortune to lose it by mortal sin, God bestows on our soul the three theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity, infused moral virtues, and the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit. All these gifts of grace are supernatural and spiritual so we can’t see them but by faith we believe they are there. Many saints have strongly experienced the influence of these gifts in their souls usually by what are called mystical graces from God. Spiritual writers on the christian life refer to all these supernatural gifts which work in conjunction generally with our own natural gifts and potentialities as the spiritual organism or the spiritual life of grace.
These supernatural gifts God bestows on our souls do not change us from being human beings and creatures of God, but they elevate our nature to a supernatural level of activity and communion with God. Philosophically, they are called accidents because we remain substantially human beings.
The CCC says that no one without a special revelation from God can determine whether they are in a state of grace or not with certainty. Since these gifts are spiritual in nature, they inhere in our spiritual soul so we are not going to probably notice anything outwardly as it were by sense perception although the sanctity of the soul can overflow exteriorly to the body such as perceiving joy in the face and such like among holy people. A good conscience can be an indication of the presence of grace in the soul too especially after a good confession if we have a lot of sins to confess and which we generally feel relieved of a burden or weight on our soul. St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross are two great saints and masters of the spiritual life and who have left us very valuable writings concerning the spiritual life of grace, its higher stages, and mystical graces which they experienced from God. Jesus talked about the ‘living water’ he would give to us becoming a spring of water welling up to eternal life. This is the christian spiritual life of grace and all the supernatural gifts I mentioned above and which the two saints I just mentioned write about.
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Thom18
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It can, but it won’t if you rebel against the grace that the sacrament infuses within you.
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Sophie111
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Unfortunately that can not be proven in this life…as the present clerical child abuse demonstrates if we actually needed more examples.
So its a fairly non-falsifiable answer…which in my experience triggers a"gullibility warning" - institutional brain-washing likely lies ahead
.In any case, we’ve slipped on the sacramental baptism thing - it is commonly not necessary for salvation for those who do not know or believe in sacramental theology. One’s life can be changed by conversion experiences that don’t involve baptism or even institutional religion.
Which likely explains why so many adults, baptised as children, often have their “provable” conversion to God as adults … often enough after leaving the Catholic Church and confessing Jesus as Lord in some other Church.
I realise that is not politically correct for many Catholics, but that “proof”, it seems to me, is as good as anything you will get that proves infant baptism does so. Which looks like a stalemate re the topic here.
In short, nobody here can answer your question one way or the other it seems to me.
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John_Martin
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Sophie111 has spoken opinions based on private reasonings, whereas Richca has written out of what was delivered as articles of the Faith, as he was taught to observe all that was commanded in the official line of Apostolic discipleship, faithfully done in obedience to our Lord’s command (Matthew 28, 19-20).
Also, Richca and all of us participating this living Faith do know the actuality of the Virtues and Grace and Gifts and Holy Spirit working within us and our Co-Operation with the Spirit, with the Father, and with his Son. It is not a “theory”, not a “sacramental baptism thing”, but is real and has been real since the Kingdom established by God was established when our King was anointed by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descended and remained with him.
Our first Pope, Peter, tried to dissuade our Lord from going to Jerusalem, but he listened to and obeyed Jesus and went back in line with the other disciples behind and following Jesus rather than creating opinions of how Jesus could "better do his “kingdom and baptism sacramental things”.
We do not lose faith because of Judas betraying Jesus, nor do we lose the obedience of faith because some of our number have betrayed him again in these abuse scandals. They were all following private opinions of “what will make me really alive and happy”, and turning toward that rather than walking faithfully behind their Master, King, Lord, and his Apostolic Magisterium. And now they are finally being delivered to Satan (turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution) as St. Paul commanded so many years ago for their refusal to maintain lives of virtue and for shielding others who also missed this mark of virtue.
John Martin
Also, Richca and all of us participating this living Faith do know the actuality of the Virtues and Grace and Gifts and Holy Spirit working within us and our Co-Operation with the Spirit, with the Father, and with his Son. It is not a “theory”, not a “sacramental baptism thing”, but is real and has been real since the Kingdom established by God was established when our King was anointed by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descended and remained with him.
Our first Pope, Peter, tried to dissuade our Lord from going to Jerusalem, but he listened to and obeyed Jesus and went back in line with the other disciples behind and following Jesus rather than creating opinions of how Jesus could "better do his “kingdom and baptism sacramental things”.
We do not lose faith because of Judas betraying Jesus, nor do we lose the obedience of faith because some of our number have betrayed him again in these abuse scandals. They were all following private opinions of “what will make me really alive and happy”, and turning toward that rather than walking faithfully behind their Master, King, Lord, and his Apostolic Magisterium. And now they are finally being delivered to Satan (turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution) as St. Paul commanded so many years ago for their refusal to maintain lives of virtue and for shielding others who also missed this mark of virtue.
John Martin
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Cjbhoward
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Baptism, like circumcision, marks a person as belonging to God.
Many Jews did not recognize the Son of God though they saw him face to face. Though there circumcision was valid.
I don’t think adult conversion means what you think it means.
Many Jews did not recognize the Son of God though they saw him face to face. Though there circumcision was valid.
I don’t think adult conversion means what you think it means.
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Sophie111
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JM if that were objectively true then the OP wouldn’t have needed to post his question.
It would have been self evident to him from within.
In fact many non baptised persons practise greater virtue than a great many baptised Christians I know. So I (and presumably at least the original poster) do not think it is as clear as your personal view of what the Church allegedly teaches says it is.
Few Catholics now accept Augustine’s rather Manichean view that the goodness of the pagans are but “splendid vices” due to an absence of sanctifying grace.
You have the cart before the horse actually.
It comes from my 60 years of lived Catholicism and marriage to a non Christian who is more spiritual and “holy” than I.
The “private reasonings” is my prayerful reflections on these dissonances over many years which leads me to believe the alleged “teachings” you refer to don’t really say what many pre-VatII Catholics think they say when it comes to the way God shares grace outside of the Catholic or even Christian Churches.
Yes, sacramental Baptism can change one’s life drastically if God is calling someone to him in that way. If he is not calling them then forcing baptism (Baptism or the Sword/Expulsion in ancient times) or receiving baptism for its material benefits (so called Rice Christians) will likely not change one’s life drastically.
Yes joining a faith community (or any new community) does drastically change persons.
It does take a village to raise a child afterall. Yes Baptism is the gateway to the Christian Village.
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Sophie111
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The alleged mark of baptism cannot be demonstrated in this life can it?
While that of circumcision certainly can!
These non-falsifiable statements do not not seem very robust to me for 21st century apologetics. Do persons not born into the Catholic Church really buy into it or find it particularly helpful in the longer term? I wonder.
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Cjbhoward
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The alleged Mark of circumcision can be demonstrated? It’s the same Mark. True circumcision is an outward Mark that can clearly be seen, but the inward Mark of circumcision, what the outward sign points to, is the same & just as unseeable.
The Bible is very clear that circumcision of the heart did not take place in everyone circumcised in the flesh.
I don’t know why we would believe baptism would have a higher “success” rate than circumcision.
Doesn’t change the fact that baptism initiates one into the body of Christ. Just like circumcision consecrated a male to God’s people.
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Sophie111
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Ah, you’ve gone non-falsifiable spiritual on this.
May I humbly point out that non Christian persons are changing their lives drastically without the “marks” (whatever you mean now) of baptism or circumcision.Conversion from sin to grace does not seem to be an experience monopolised by Christians.
May I humbly point out that non Christian persons are changing their lives drastically without the “marks” (whatever you mean now) of baptism or circumcision.Conversion from sin to grace does not seem to be an experience monopolised by Christians.
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John_Martin
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Sophie111 is again asserting that popular opinion as well as personal opinion of “prayerful reflections” should indicate soundness of doctrine. (“Few Catholics now accept Augustine’s rather Manichean view that the goodness of the pagans are but “splendid vices” due to an absence of sanctifying grace.”)
He is overlooking the fact that Saint Paul did not regard popular opinion correct compared to his Apostolic Proclamation to the Corinthians and to the Galatians and to the Ephesians who all as popular opinionized churches contradicted his teachings by prayerfully following the judaizers, etc. Paul proclaimed the message approved magisterially by the Council of Jerusalem remaining faithful to the church and to Christ.
Now he is mixing together conversion with sanctification, saying that many non-christians have been converted as well as Christians without the sacraments; he is forgetting the records of Cornelius and of the Ethiopian eunuch. Both Cornelius and the Ethiopian understand that baptism is necessary for a self understanding of citizenship as they are taught by their teachers and not by their personal reasonings. These two were pious and virtuous men yet they wanted to become included in the people of God, which is the church, which also grants Grace with the theological virtues not just moral virtues.
By the power of the Holy Spirit there is no error in the catechism delivered, even though there is sin in the hands of some of those who delivered the catechism, and even though I may sin with one hand while handing the catechism with the other hand to another person. A church without those “sacramental things” is an attempt to re-do the teachings of the catechism and of the Bible.
John Martin
He is overlooking the fact that Saint Paul did not regard popular opinion correct compared to his Apostolic Proclamation to the Corinthians and to the Galatians and to the Ephesians who all as popular opinionized churches contradicted his teachings by prayerfully following the judaizers, etc. Paul proclaimed the message approved magisterially by the Council of Jerusalem remaining faithful to the church and to Christ.
Now he is mixing together conversion with sanctification, saying that many non-christians have been converted as well as Christians without the sacraments; he is forgetting the records of Cornelius and of the Ethiopian eunuch. Both Cornelius and the Ethiopian understand that baptism is necessary for a self understanding of citizenship as they are taught by their teachers and not by their personal reasonings. These two were pious and virtuous men yet they wanted to become included in the people of God, which is the church, which also grants Grace with the theological virtues not just moral virtues.
By the power of the Holy Spirit there is no error in the catechism delivered, even though there is sin in the hands of some of those who delivered the catechism, and even though I may sin with one hand while handing the catechism with the other hand to another person. A church without those “sacramental things” is an attempt to re-do the teachings of the catechism and of the Bible.
John Martin
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