Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[malphono]

CradleCath;6402906:

The Bishops & priests BOTH called this Mass the Novus Ordo & they still do. Talk about thin skinned. I don’t mind anyone calling the Mass of 1962, the “TLM”. I would have to say to those of you who think that Trads are trying to denigrate you & your Mass by using the name Novus Ordo, or N.O. are being a little bit paranoid.

You are 100% wrong. Refer for posting #107 for the facts.

Think what you want but, on the practical level, CradleCath is quite spot on, official designations notwithstanding.

 

[Malleus_01]

No, I’m not. But I do worry about the health and future of the EF in my diocese. Here locally the bishop and pastor have bent over backwards to support the EF. Over time it’s not going too well. I think the major (not the only but the major) reason for this is not the clergy or the setting or those who attend other Masses at the parish but some of those that attend the EF itself. If you truly feel “isolated” I implore you to look within as well at to look outside for the reasons you feel this way.

Get as defensive as you wish but the actions of those who attend the EFs also deserve review if they goal is truly to eradicate a feeling of isolation.

Malleus : Isnt it interesting that the tone of your posts comes across as judgemental and condecending. Perhaps you dont realize it. I go to a Traditional Parish which has no Mass of Paul the VI. We certainly do not feel isolated. Why would we. I think from the outset - the message is that those Parishes who share both Paul the VI and Traditional Latin Masses - that those who go to Latin Mass are looked down upon and made to feel inferior. I find that same sentiment coming through loud and clear in the tone of your discussion with both Dempsey and Lorimar. No wonder they feel the way they do.

Pax

 

[ChurchTorch]

Think what you want but, on the practical level, CradleCath is quite spot on, official designations notwithstanding.

No, it’s a matter of “think what YOU want.”

Posting #107 nailed this issue. PRIDE keeps some using “Novus Ordo” and “N.O.”

 

[ChurchTorch]

Malleus : Isnt it interesting that the tone of your posts comes across as judgemental and condecending. Perhaps you dont realize it. I go to a Traditional Parish which has no Mass of Paul the VI. We certainly do not feel isolated. Why would we. I think from the outset - the message is that those Parishes who share both Paul the VI and Traditional Latin Masses - that those who go to Latin Mass are looked down upon and made to feel inferior. I find that same sentiment coming through loud and clear in the tone of your discussion with both Dempsey and Lorimar. No wonder they feel the way they do.

Pax

And I’m saying you’re wrong. This self-imposed false martyrism is extremely transparent.

I think those who prefer the EF should attend the EF and focus on the EF just like those who prefer the OF do with the OF. Mind your own business. They should not focus on what they believe others feel about them because it’s fairly clear to at least me that very few care about the EF one way or the other.

 

[Malleus_01]

What do you mean by “it is what it is?”

Pope Benedict himself is the one who defined the two forms of the Roman Rite of the Church as being the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form.

The term “Novus Ordo” is not an official title of anything. Every new edition of the missal is a “novus ordo,” meaning literally the “new order” of how the missal is celebrated. Every time the Tridentine missal was revised (and yes, it was revised several times) the new missal became, technically, the “novus ordo,” the "new order of the Mass. Those who use the phrase “Novus Ordo” are using it as a derisive term for those who prefer the Ordinary Form. As the poster above stated, the Church has NEVER referred to the Mass as celebrated by the Missal of Pope Paul VI as the “Novus Ordo.”

Honestly, this insistence to label Catholics as “Novus Ordos” and referring to the Pauline Mass as the “Novus Ordo,” along with the indifference to accepting reality by stating "it is what it is" is a perfect example that many here have referenced by the dismissal that some so called “traditionalists” have for those who do not reflect their personal bias.

I would like to ask, by the way, why you chose the username “pro multis.”

The Mass of Paul the VI was promulgated after Vatican II. Thus " Novus." The Order of Mass is "Ordo. "

Now no one should be insulted by that term. If someone were to call me a Tridentine Latin Rite Catholic - would I feel slighted? Obviously not. Lex orandi, lex credendi

Pax

 

[Onegin]

…because it’s fairly clear to at least me that very few care about the EF one way or the other.

Don’t you think that this comment might be one of the reasons that they feel isolated? Because the vast majority of the Catholic world considers the Mass they attend to be insignificant?

 

[Malleus_01]

And I’m saying you’re wrong. This self-imposed false martyrism is extremely transparent.

I think those who prefer the EF should attend the EF and focus on the EF just like those who prefer the OF do with the OF. Mind your own business. They should not focus on what they believe others feel about them because it’s fairly clear to at least me that very few care about the EF one way or the other.

Malleus: First , perhaps you should mind your own business. You are the one who has come to the Traditional forum to enforce your views on the Catholics here , not the reverse.

Second , Benedict obviously does or he wouldnt have authorized its use.

And third - just because you claim no one likes it doesnt make it so. The simple fact is - that as little as 5 years ago NO ONE Could worship GOD in a Traditional Manner or they were comiting a Mortal Sin according to people like you. But today - we even have a place on Catholic Answers Forum itself. I’d say we are growing not shrinking and the fact that people like you go out of your way to attack us proves that very fact doesnt it.

In 5 years where will we be. I imagine that thought alone terrifies you doesnt it.

pax

 

[malphono]

No, it’s a matter of “think what YOU want.”

Posting #107 nailed this issue. PRIDE keeps some using “Novus Ordo” and “N.O.”

Whatever floats your boat. It’s not worth my while wasting more time on this.

 

[Jane11]

To those who are saying, “why can’t they be friends?, etc.”. Do you think that a public announcement would have been made from the choir loft, located behind you and far above you, the third week your family had attended a Cathedral at the 11am Mass of, “the liturgy and Mass has been said in English and will CONTINUE to be said in English at the Cathedral” had they intended to be “friendly?” Hardly. Yes, this really did happen to us. We still do attend that Cathedral because at least it is worshipful verses the "free for all, priest pushed to the sidelines, fountain for holy water - no way to fill holy water bottles from the monstrosity, and two, not one, but two handshakings in the service church that we had visited before the Cathedral. Boy, it must have caused quite a horrible stink to see “that family with her wearing a veil for two weeks in a row” to have something so stupidly transparent announced from the choir loft before they sang. To put it bluntly: it sucks. This is why the church fathers instituted Latin in the first place: so no matter where you were in the world you would always feel at home in church. Yeah, right. The very fact that I wear a veil was enough to cause that announcement to be made. They don’t give a rip about us and obviously do not want us there. We are there because there is no other place even remotely worshipful in this area. Period. If we were going to stay in this city, I might think about joining something so they could see that I’m not “scary.” Why a woman wearing a veil in church is suuuuuch a threat is beyond me, and quite frankly, their response to it was extremely juvenile and showed no Christian love. Period.

 

[jonpd]

People find change threatening. They may have heard of the Motu Proprio and think the Holy Father intends to make everyone go to the EF mass. Someone involved with music may feel even more threatened as that would be one of the biggest changes in switching to an EF mass.

I think another reason for trying to mix with the NO parishioners is to ease their fears as well so they see that people who attend the Latin Mass don’t have 2 heads and to give us a chance to help dispel any misunderstandings people might have.

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;6402906:

You are 100% wrong. Refer for posting #107 for the facts.

#1. That post is by “call me Tim” & his fear of the Latin Mass caused me to mostly ignore his posts over the past year.

#2. He makes a lot of unsubstantiated remarks in post 107, & gives no proof of same.

#3. Were you & “call me Tim” adults when the Novus Ordo replaced the Mass of the ages, the Mass of the Roman Catholic Church from 400Ad to 1969.

It was called the Novus Ordo at that time, is still called the Novus Ordo Mass & why do you care. There is nothing wrong with the title. And by the way, please provide proof the the Tridentine Mass was EVER called the “Novus Ordo”.

One last thing. Why do you do you people, who say that our Mass is not worth considering hang around the Traditional Forum so much?

Why are you on this thread whose subject matter concerns whether we “Trads” feel isolated at times. How would you know??I wish the moderators would consider a forum titled the Novus Ordo forum. I doubt that most of you would stay there, though.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Don’t you think that this comment might be one of the reasons that they feel isolated? Because the vast majority of the Catholic world considers the Mass they attend to be insignificant?

Actually, no.

If they were dismissing the EF in a prejudicial manner then yes, of course but that’s just not happening. I just don’t think most Latin Rite Catholics have enough of an interest in the EF to investigate it deep enough to form an opinion about it one way or the other. They are happy with what they are doing now and they are going to stick with it. This is about being satisfied and happy with the OF and not about finding the EF to be “insignificant.” There is nothing wrong with that.

I think the belief that people in the Church including the hierarchy are “afraid” of the EF is absurd. I believe it’s more of an excuse than anything else. Yes we can fine isolated, anecdotal bit of information here and there that might support such a far-fetched notion but rarely do we hear about all the EFs that were started in dioceses around the world with the release of Summorum Pontificum.

 

[ChurchTorch]

People find change threatening. They may have heard of the Motu Proprio and think the Holy Father intends to make everyone go to the EF mass. Someone involved with music may feel even more threatened as that would be one of the biggest changes in switching to an EF mass.

I think another reason for trying to mix with the NO parishioners is to ease their fears as well so they see that people who attend the Latin Mass don’t have 2 heads and to give us a chance to help dispel any misunderstandings people might have.

By an large almost ALL people find ALL changes to be unwelcome. I used to cajole my devout parents to attend the local EF with me. Both had zero interest. They love their current parish and pastor and they much prefer the OF based on their experience with the EF years ago.

NB: I certainly wouldn’t want to attend Mass with people who refer to anyone as “NO parishioners.” That’s downright offensive and yes, it’s more than enough to make me avoid anyone who would do that…

 

[ChurchTorch]

I was thinking…

It appears that some Catholics who prefer the EF cannot understand and look down upon those who prefer the OF. That’s very wrong. I’m not sure the reverse exists in any large numbers.

 

[ChadS]

Chad

Have you ever read Pope St. Pius X’s encyclical letter “Pascendi Dominici Gregis” and the Syllabus condemning the errors of the modernists, “Lamentabili Sane”? If not, maybe you should so that you can familiarize yourself with modernism and modernists.

No I have not read them, but I will put them on my reading list. However, I do know that referring to the “modernist” church is not a term of endearment. I’m just wondering if that term refers to the entire post-Vatican II church or just part of it or possibly certain individuals?

As in any generation there will be those people and certain movements that will have modernism or some variant as its agenda. At the same time it’s not right to write off all Catholics that attend the NO as modernists.

ChadS

 

[pro_multis]

If I were a Catholic Bishop, I think I would be very hesitant to establish an EF parish. I would worry that those who like the EF would be drained from other parishes. I would worry that those concerned about liturgy might be less present at the OF. I would not be happy that the EF would not be part of the life, if even to a small extent, of every Latin Catholic parish.

Look what has happened in my church. We have two liturgies, and they may well end up becoming two separate churches.

You hit the nail on the head. I believe that many bishops fear (and rightfully so) what would happen if a trad parish was established for the reasons you stated, among others.

 

[CradleCath]

ANd it would be nice if the Great Schism never happened. Absolutely moot point. The reality is that is has been moved.

Where’s my violin?

That remark is just plain RUDE!! If you must resort to something like that, I really can’t take you seriously as ANY kind of devout Catholic.

 

[mick321]

I was thinking…

It appears that some Catholics who prefer the EF cannot understand and look down upon those who prefer the OF. That’s very wrong. I’m not sure the reverse exists in any large numbers.

Around here, Catholics who prefer the EF have often had decades of personal experience assisting the OF Mass. Among those who prefer the OF, it is rare to fine someone who has even heard of the Traditional Latin Mass, let alone having witnessing it firsthand. Many have been conditioned to reflexively resist it. Priests included.

The element of “fear” comes into the discussion as in “fear of turning back the clock” on the “reforms” of recent years. Ignorance and fear are elements of the organizational bigotry that has infected many parishes and diocese in the US. It is unattractive, unacceptable, unholy, and indeed, very wrong.

 

[CradleCath]

You are 100% wrong. Refer for posting #107 for the facts.

This is the second or third post in which you’ve referred to Post #107, as if it is the stone that contained the ten Commandments,

[SIGN]Following is most of post #107:
The term “Novus Ordo” is not an official title of anything. Every new edition of the missal is a “novus ordo,” meaning literally the “new order” of how the missal is celebrated.[/SIGN]

Lets see…do I find a link here? One that states that the Novus Ordo is not the official title of the New Order of the Mass?? Why no, I don’t. And, it almost seems as if “Call me Tim”, thinks that every newly published missal, contains a New Order of the Mass.(Let’s see, there is the St. Joseph’s missal, the missal I have from Angelus Press, the Baronius Missal & on & on. Guess what, they all contain the same Mass.

[SIGN][SIGN}The rest of post #107:Every time the Tridentine missal was revised (and yes, it was revised several times) the new missal became, technically, the “novus ordo,” the "new order of the Mass. [/SIGN][/SIGN]

About the later revisions of the Mass of Trent…Pope Pius V himself added to the Missal the feast of Our Lady of Victory, to celebrate the victory of Lepanto of 7 October 1571. His immediate successor, Pope Gregory XIII, changed the name of this feast to “The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary” and Pope John XXIII changed it to “Our Lady of the Rosary”.

These additions of feast days hardly constitute a Novus Ordo. Now, if either you or “call me Tim” can show, me with a link, that the Tridentine Mass has ever been called the “New Order of the Tridentine Mass”…maybe I can stop laughing. Until then :extrahappy::extrahappy:

[SIGN]Those who use the phrase “Novus Ordo” are using it as a derisive term for those who prefer the Ordinary Form. As the poster above stated, the Church has NEVER referred to the Mass as celebrated by the Missal of Pope Paul VI as the “Novus Ordo.” [/SIGN]

You are hilarious. Type Novus Ordo Missae, or Mass into your search engine & see how many hits you come up with.

 

[ChurchTorch]

That remark is just plain RUDE!! If you must resort to something like that, I really can’t take you seriously as ANY kind of devout Catholic.

No, what was “RUDE!” was that individual’s characterization of the OF Mass. Please don’t be selective in your outrage. Here is the garbage I was responding to:

…You & just call me Tim would love my parish, where a select few run the NO, that’s a NO parish! You know where the priest faces you putting on a play, must be, too many abuses to say it is a Mass!

Think twice next time before you try to present only 1/2 of the story and keep your judgments about who is a Catholic and who is not a Catholic to yourself.