Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[Dempsey1919]

No as a traditionalist I do not feel isolated because in the 40+ years when the Latin Mass, (and decent liturgical music btw) have not been available to me, or only rarely, I worship in my parish in the Mass provided by the universal Church

Some traditionalists choose to attend the EF Mass exclusively. They respect the validity and beauty of the OF Mass, but the Lord is calling them to worship him in the EF Mass. In the same way, our Eastern brethren do not attend the Roman rite because they feel attached to their form of Mass.

My point is that traditionalists often do not have a “home” of their own, and are forced to travel to many different parishes to attend the Mass they prefer. This constant movement between parishes often makes it difficult to find any fellowship and friendship.

It is fine if some traditionalists decided to attend the OF Mass in their home parish, but some traditionalists are so attached to the EF that this is not an option. For the good of their souls, they move from parish to parish to attend the Mass which strengthens their faith and enriches their spiritual life. For this reason, I think it would be better if every diocese had a parish dedicated to the celebration of the EF Sacraments. This would give the traditionalist Catholics a parish of their own.

 

[Dempsey1919]

this generalization offered by Demsey is IMO completely uncalled for and not borne out by facts.

This is based on my own personal experiences. I do not claim that my experiences are the norm for everybody.

 

[puzzleannie]

My point is that traditionalists often do not have a “home” of their own, and are forced to travel to many different parishes to attend the Mass they prefer. This constant movement between parishes often makes it difficult to find any fellowship and friendship.
.

they do have a home of their own, it is their own parish.

they can also choose to make the EF parish their own by registering there and making the effort in travel to become involved. We also have people who drive from miles around because this is an orthodox parish with a great pastor and preacher, and these people have become involved, which is why we have hopes of someday being able to offer the EF.

they do not have a home because they have chosen not to establish themselves and participate in the EF parish as their home, NOT because of the “attitudes” of other parishioners who normally attend the OF Mass.

 

[Dempsey1919]

they do have a home of their own, it is their own parish.

I could attend my home parish, but they do not offer the EF Mass and it is unlikely that they ever will. In fact, the very nature of the Church architecture would make the celebration of the EF Mass difficult. The Church was built in the aftermath of Vatican II and does not have the High Altar or altar rail.

I would love to attend my home parish because it is within walking distance of my home. It would be far easier for me to attend Mass there. However, I have found the Masses celebrated there to be troubling. The Mass on Sunday’s is what is known as a ‘Folk’ Mass with drums and guitars. The Mass is valid, but I find the actions of many parishioners to be scandalous. I respect the right of the priest and these parishioners to celebrate the kind of Mass that strengthens their faith, but this I find it impossible to pray in that environment.

In order to attend the EF Mass, it has become necessary for me to travel to another parish. I wasn’t aware that I could register there, and I will look into this in the future.

 

[ChadS]

I could attend my home parish, but they do not offer the EF Mass and it is unlikely that they ever will. In fact, the very nature of the Church architecture would make the celebration of the EF Mass difficult. The Church was built in the aftermath of Vatican II and does not have the High Altar or altar rail.

Your church does indeed have a high altar. It’s the same altar that the priest uses each and every Sunday in his OF mass. Just because it doesn’t have the shape and form you think altars should have does not diminish the fact that it is still an altar where the Eucharist is offered up each and every Sunday. I’m also sure that some accomodation could be made for altar rails too, whether they be temporary or permanent. Yes some churches are cramped for space and it may be difficult, but something can be done. So, the very architecture is not a hindrance to the celebration of the EF mass there. The priest on the other hand may take some more persuading, despite what the Motu Proprio says.

ChadS

 

[jonpd]

Your church does indeed have a high altar. It’s the same altar that the priest uses each and every Sunday in his OF mass. Just because it doesn’t have the shape and form you think altars should have does not diminish the fact that it is still an altar where the Eucharist is offered up each and every Sunday. I’m also sure that some accomodation could be made for altar rails too, whether they be temporary or permanent. Yes some churches are cramped for space and it may be difficult, but something can be done. So, the very architecture is not a hindrance to the celebration of the EF mass there. The priest on the other hand may take some more persuading, despite what the Motu Proprio says.

ChadS

Is it allowable to use the table as is used in the OF for an EF mass? I was under the impression that one had to have a proper altar with a relic.

As for altar rails, at our parish we use prie-dieu or kneelers placed at the front of the sanctuary (where the rail would have been) which seems to work fine.

 

[ChadS]

Is it allowable to use the table as is used in the OF for an EF mass? I was under the impression that one had to have a proper altar with a relic.

As for altar rails, at our parish we use prie-dieu or kneelers placed at the front of the sanctuary (where the rail would have been) which seems to work fine.

I don’t know about the specifics of that, but I know for a fact that the OF altar at my parish has a relic in it.

ChadS

 

[Seamus_L]

I think I agree and can relate to just about everything you said Dempsey. Even in parishes that offer a Latin Mass, you may find an entirely different mindset with other parishoners who attend the mass in the vernacular. I remember last year when I was at such a church. I was conversing with 3 women (all over 50) about the amount of sexually explicit programming on TV, and I initially assumed we were all on the same page, but then I mentioned commericals for birth control pills and there demeaner changed entirely, and I ended up being told in no uncertain terms that the Church’s teaching on contraception was just wrong period.

 

[Onegin]

I don’t know about the specifics of that, but I know for a fact that the OF altar at my parish has a relic in it.

ChadS

I think that you can accomodate an Altar table to work with the TLM.

See:

http://www.dioceseofknoxville.org/etc/dec11/a-SJN-latinmass.jpg

(From the Knoxville, TN diocese).

 

[Timothysis]

Some traditionalists choose to attend the EF Mass exclusively. They respect the validity and beauty of the OF Mass, but the Lord is calling them to worship him in the EF Mass.

Indeed. The Church provides valid masses with valid consecrations, yet “the Lord” is saying to some “don’t worship me like this, worship me like** that**?”

Perhaps the isolation felt for being a “traditionalists” stems from within oneself and not the other way around.

 

[ChadS]

I think that you can accomodate an Altar table to work with the TLM.

Yes, I think you are absolutely correct. It bothers me a little that some don’t think that God can be properly worshipped in a Catholic church because of what the altar looks like or where it’s placed.

ChadS

 

[Dempsey1919]

Indeed. The Church provides valid masses with valid consecrations, yet “the Lord” is saying to some “don’t worship me like this, worship me like that?”

Pope Benedict has recognised the legitimacy of our desires for the Extraordinary Form. Read Summorum Pontificum.

The Church has several different rites, and each rite has its own individual Mass. Eastern Catholics attend the Divine Liturgy, Catholics in Milan attend the Ambrosian rite, and Coptic Catholics have their own form of Mass. It is clear that the Church respects and promotes many different forms of the Mass.

As a traditionalist Catholic, I have a legitimate preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, just as Eastern Catholics have a preference for the Divine Liturgy. I am not saying that the EF is better than the OF; I am saying that I prefer the EF Mass over the OF Mass and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

This thread is evidence to show that many traditionalist Catholics feel isolated in their parishes. We feel isolated because many Catholics have negative views on the Tridentine Mass and frown upon anything that is traditional. We feel isolated because we do not have a community of our own and are forced to go from parish to parish in order to attend the Mass that we prefer.

Those Catholics who prefer the OF Mass would feel exactly the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. If the vast majority of Catholics preferred the EF Mass, and those who preferred the OF Mass were forced to travel to many different parishes to attend their Mass, they would feel the same.

The vast majority of Roman Catholics have demonstrated their preference for the OF. It is never wrong for them to express this preference, but many people frown upon Traditionalists who express their preference for the EF. Why the double standard?

Both the OF and the EF are valid expressions of the Roman rite. It is not wrong for traditionalists to want to celebrate the EF and experience the friendship and community of a parish, just like the majority of OF Catholics do.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Yes, I think you are absolutely correct. It bothers me a little that some don’t think that God can be properly worshipped in a Catholic church because of what the altar looks like or where it’s placed.

If the type of altar is not important, why were the altars changed after Vatican II?

The fact of the matter is that the proper celebration of the EF requires a High Altar with an altar rail. In the same way, a table altar is required for the celebration of the OF Ad Populum.

Table altars are definitely valid, but they are not ideally suited for the celebration of the EF.

The type of altar is a significant element in the celebration of the EF. The prayers of the EF explicitly mention the relics that are contained in the altar stone. These essential prayers would be pointless if the Mass was celebrated on a table altar without any relics.

 

[Bluegoat]

If the type of altar is not important, why were the altars changed after Vatican II?

The fact of the matter is that the proper celebration of the EF requires a High Altar with an altar rail. In the same way, a table altar is required for the celebration of the OF Ad Populum.

Table altars are definitely valid, but they are not ideally suited for the celebration of the EF.

The type of altar is a significant element in the celebration of the EF. The prayers of the EF explicitly mention the relics that are contained in the altar stone. These essential prayers would be pointless if the Mass was celebrated on a table altar without any relics.

This makes it seem like it would be very difficult to have an EF mass in a setting other than a permanent, dedicated church building. Before the Mass was in the vernacular, what did Catholics do in cases where such a place was not available - say a new community, or a battlefield?

On another note, I think there seem to be two sperate complains being talked about here. Some are speaking about the Mass itself, but the OP seemed concered specifically with the aspect of being a member of a parish in other ways besides participation in the Mass.

A few people have said that they want to be able to have fellowship specifically with the other people who prefer the EF. To me this is a somewhat different issue than just the availability of the EF.

 

[Seamus_L]

Whether people want to accept it or not, the fact is there’s a night and day difference between a Traditional Catholic and the average non-Traditional Catholic. All you have to do is to check any recent surveys regarding what those who list themselves as Catholic, believe or don’t believe as the case may be.

 

[Dempsey1919]

This makes it seem like it would be very difficult to have an EF mass in a setting other than a permanent, dedicated church building. Before the Mass was in the vernacular, what did Catholics do in cases where such a place was not available - say a new community, or a battlefield?

A High Altar is not needed to celebrate the EF, but it is certainly better to have one.

However, this is slightly off topic and I don’t want to derail the thread.

Whether people want to accept it or not, the fact is there’s a night and day difference between a Traditional Catholic and the average non-Traditional Catholic. All you have to do is to check any recent surveys regarding what those who list themselves as Catholic, believe or don’t believe as the case may be.

I agree. Traditionalist Catholics and average Catholics are different. We are all Catholics in union with the Successor of Peter, but we are very different. These differences in attitude, beliefs, and sensibilities make it difficult for traditionalists to find fellowship in OF Parishes.

I am not saying that we should segregate ourselves, but I think more needs to be done to make Traditionalists feel welcome in the Roman rite. For years we have been treated as outsiders and I think more Bishops should make an effort to unite the traditionalists within their dioceses.

 

[Timothysis]

Pope Benedict has recognised the legitimacy of our desires for the Extraordinary Form. Read Summorum Pontificum.

The Church has several different rites, and each rite has its own individual Mass. Eastern Catholics attend the Divine Liturgy, Catholics in Milan attend the Ambrosian rite, and Coptic Catholics have their own form of Mass. It is clear that the Church respects and promotes many different forms of the Mass.

As a traditionalist Catholic, I have a legitimate preference for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, just as Eastern Catholics have a preference for the Divine Liturgy. I am not saying that the EF is better than the OF; I am saying that I prefer the EF Mass over the OF Mass and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

This thread is evidence to show that many traditionalist Catholics feel isolated in their parishes. We feel isolated because many Catholics have negative views on the Tridentine Mass and frown upon anything that is traditional. We feel isolated because we do not have a community of our own and are forced to go from parish to parish in order to attend the Mass that we prefer.

Those Catholics who prefer the OF Mass would feel exactly the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. If the vast majority of Catholics preferred the EF Mass, and those who preferred the OF Mass were forced to travel to many different parishes to attend their Mass, they would feel the same.

The vast majority of Roman Catholics have demonstrated their preference for the OF. It is never wrong for them to express this preference, but many people frown upon Traditionalists who express their preference for the EF. Why the double standard?

Both the OF and the EF are valid expressions of the Roman rite. It is not wrong for traditionalists to want to celebrate the EF and experience the friendship and community of a parish, just like the majority of OF Catholics do.

What is all comes down to is personal preference. If you wish to attend the EF, then fine, but don’t say such silly things as the Lord is “calling” someone to attend the EF. It nearly sounds like the “preachers” who say the Lord “called” them to preach his gospel even though they preach things that have nothing to do with true Christianity.

 

[Timothysis]

Whether people want to accept it or not, the fact is there’s a night and day difference between a Traditional Catholic and the average non-Traditional Catholic. All you have to do is to check any recent surveys regarding what those who list themselves as Catholic, believe or don’t believe as the case may be.

I would say there is a night and day difference in Catholics who know the faith and those who don’t. Saying “traditional” catholic vs. “non-traditional catholic” insinuates an arrogance that is often lingering in “traditional” catholic attitudes. There is no such thing as a “traditional” catholic or a "non-traditional catholic; we are all Catholics.

 

[Onegin]

This makes it seem like it would be very difficult to have an EF mass in a setting other than a permanent, dedicated church building. Before the Mass was in the vernacular, what did Catholics do in cases where such a place was not available - say a new community, or a battlefield?

This is a good excuse for me to post these:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I think the first is from the Korean War and I’m not sure about the second. Perhaps someone else knows?

Anyways, yes, war is an extraordinary circumstance and, under normal conditions, a Catholic parish should have all the necessary and proper tools to have a TLM. Sadly, a lot of dioceses and older parishes made the regrettable decision in recent years to remove the High Altars completely. Many recently built parishes opted not to put one in at all which is extremely sad.

So, yes, a Catholic Church should have what is required but as that is not always the case today, sometimes you just have to work with what you have.

A TLM using an Altar table is better than no TLM at all, right? One step at a time.

 

[jonpd]

I’ll have to say that in my experience I felt the opposite - I actually felt more isolated when I was attending an OF parish, I think because although I hadn’t identified myself as a traditional Catholic at the time, I was feeling somewhat out of step with the OF Mass, flet like something was missing, and as a result kept moving from one parish to another. When I found my current EF Parish at Immaculate Conception Fitchburg, I found the other people very welcoming, we had a coffee hour after Mass where we got to talk and I was able to learn a lot about being a traditional Catholic and so on.

Unfortunately our parish is closing due to a consolidation of churches in the city so we don’t know where our new home will be come July 1 but I am sure we will find one.