Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[Seamus_L]

We want to attend and promote the TLM, and I don’t believe we owe anyone explanations or apologies because we’d rather travel long distances to attend a Latin Mass than go down the block to hear mass in the vernacular.

 

[Lormar]

Seamus

I agree completely with you. Show me a traditional Catholic who does not know his/her faith. I have yet to encounter one. On the other hand…

 

[malphono]

If the type of altar is not important, why were the altars changed after Vatican II?

All altars were not changed.

The fact of the matter is that the proper celebration of the EF requires a High Altar with an altar rail. In the same way, a table altar is required for the celebration of the OF Ad Populum.

No, that’s not quite correct. The one thing that is required in the EF is ad orientem celebration.

The altar rail, while it does serve a distinct and important purpose, is actually extraneous to the celebration of the EF.

A High Altar is likewise not required for the EF. Remember that the EF was, and still may be, offered on a side (or apsidial) altar. Plus there is no requirement that the altar be flush against the reredos. Take, for example, the traditional High Altar in Notre-Dame de Paris or in St Patrick’s in New York, etc, which were always free-standing. Further, in the Missale Romanum of 1962 there is a diagram for incensation of a free-standing altar. That was not an innovation, but merely the restoration of an old rubric.

Similarly, a table-altar is not required for the OF, even when done versus populum (the use of which posture is, IMHO, most unfortunate). Even that can (and, as I see it, should) be done on a fixed, solid altar that is free standing. As much as I dislike them, table-altars can also be fitted with an an antependium (and an altar stone which it usually lacks), which renders them fit for the EF. Another poster said it nicely

A TLM using an Altar table is better than no TLM at all, right? One step at a time.

Anyway, there is a huge difference between an altar that is solid and free-standing, and a table. The former is an ancient and venerable tradition; the latter is not. (I’d rather that table-altars and versus populum both be eliminated completely, but I digress.)

Table altars are definitely valid, but they are not ideally suited for the celebration of the EF.

As far as I’m concerned, tables are not ideally suited for the OF either. Remember that even in the rubrics of the Latin editio typica of the OF, ad orientem is the presumed posture.

The type of altar is a significant element in the celebration of the EF. The prayers of the EF explicitly mention the relics that are contained in the altar stone. These essential prayers would be pointless if the Mass was celebrated on a table altar without any relics.

In time of war, it was usually not possible to have a fixed altar in the field, so portable altar stones (or Byzantine antimensia) were used instead.

The US GIRM says (emphasis added)

1. The practice of placing relics of Saints, even those not Martyrs, under the altar to be dedicated is fittingly retained. Care should be taken, however, to ensure the authenticity of such relics.

but unfortunately that (and the concurrent requirement of consecration) apparently applies only to fixed altars. Seems to me it’s one of those things that needs to be tightened up: far too much leeway.

My :twocents:

 

[Jane11]

Yes.
There is one opportunity for Latin Mass at the Cathedral where I attend and it happens at an inconvenient time and only happens once a month. Once when it was on a Saturday morning I was able to attend. The young priest did an absolutely excellent job with it . All this being said, it was horrible the first few time we attended the Cathedral because I was the only one with a veil and virtually everyone turned to stare at me when I walked forward for communion. It was the same the next week, and the next, etc. but eventually they got used to us. The WORST part was that their prayers were DIFFERENT so I felt so left out. I kept thinking, this is WHY the church fathers wanted things to be in Latin - no one would ever feel like an outsider no matter where they had to move. They did all kinds of odd things like shake hands, etc., which we had no idea about and had to figure out when to do this (husband hated it, hates the host being handed out like “trick or treat candy from non-consecrated hands to non-consecrated hands”). At least there are some who stand in “Father’s line” to receive the host and do receive it in the regular fashion so we make sure we are in that line. In checking out other churches in the area we were absolutely appalled at how they had side-lined their priest as some kind of afterthought :sad_yes:, and literally made me sick to my stomach to see it. The holy water was coming out of a fountain so there was no way you could fill up your holy water bottles for home…horrible. The Bishop at the Cathedral and the Rector where we attend are wonderful and I think, they are slowly trying to change things. I notice at least one of the songs will be in Latin, the choir sings in Latin sometimes and Father always has on Gregorian Chant before Mass. If we were planning to stay in this city I would consider making the effort to join a woman’s group.

 

[bobrec]

I am one of those recently reconciled Catholics who left the Church in the 1960’s for various reasons, usually having to do with arrogant stupidity.

I also qualify as one who, having returned to the Church, found that the Novus Ordo is completely foreign and unacceptable to me. My traditional background just could not feel comfortable with the song-singing, glad-handing I found going to local churches for mass.

So I drive close to an hour every Sunday to a parish in a nearby city that is blessed with two FSSP priests. The diocese recently restructured and my parish was thankfully unaffected precisely because it is the center for traditional Catholic worship in the diocese. That seems very encouraging, but we’ll save that thought for another time.

I only see my fellow parishioners at 10 o’clock mass. We say the rosary for the return of the Latin mass and know each other to see. I have met several who introduced themselves and welcomed me.

I feel very comfortable there but do not feel obligated to socialize with anyone. Perhaps it is because I am not from the area and they are not my neighbors.

That’s not why I attend mass. Were I so inclined, I would wait until after mass to meet and talk with them, like my parents and grandparents did in the parish I grew up in.

It seems to be the folks who are only familiar with the OF who enjoy going to church to meet and congregate with one another. There’s nothing wrong with that. God bless them.

I pray the mass to ask Our Lord’s forgiveness for my years of neglecting my duty to God and my soul’s salvation. I’m better able to do that at a TLM.

So no, I do not feel isolated being a traditional Catholic. I’m proud of my faith, and I feel closer to God.

 

[mangy_dog]

I think it is difficult to be a traditionalist in a parish that mainly celebrates the Ordinary Form. I attend a parish which celebrates the EF Mass once every Sunday. The other Masses are all OF Masses.

I am extremely grateful to my priest for celebrating the EF Mass every week. The people who attend this Mass come from miles around and most of them do not belong to the parish. The EF community isn’t really part of the parish but comes together once per week for the celebration of the EF. It often feels like we (traditionalists) do not belong to the parish.

I attend the EF almost exclusively but I occasionally go to the OF. When I see the sense of community amongst the people who attend the OF, I often wish that we in the traditionalist movement had the same opportunities to get to know one another.

Unfortunately, the traditionalists are treated as visitors to the parish, and not as members. The priest celebrates Mass for us, but none of the traditionalists get involved in parish activities. The traditionalists don’t seem to have any kind of friendships. I know the people who regularly attend the EF Mass at my parish but I am not friends with them in the same way that the people who attend the OF are. The OF group seems to be brought together by activities such as the parish fare and the various committees they have.

The traditionalists don’t have any roles on the parish committees and they aren’t invited to join any of the parish activities.

As a traditionalist, I often feel isolated when I attend Church. I don’t feel like the traditionalist group is made to feel part of the parish and I often wish that we were invited to join activities. Have you had similar experiences?

I often wish that the Bishop would erect a traditionalist parish within the diocese. I think this would bring the traditionalists together into one community and we could all get to know one another. Do you think it would be better if traditionalists had their own parishes?

Isolated?..

I take the Mertonian view - Solitary.

In the quiet and the still…there He is.

 

[Malleus_01]

I would say there is a night and day difference in Catholics who know the faith and those who don’t. Saying “traditional” catholic vs. “non-traditional catholic” insinuates an arrogance that is often lingering in “traditional” catholic attitudes. There is no such thing as a “traditional” catholic or a "non-traditional catholic; we are all Catholics.

Malleus: I agree with the premise. But in my view - those who attend the Modernist Church object to being called the Novus Ordo. They insist on retaining the “Catholic” title and not the rest of the faith as handed down in Tradition. The term Traditional Catholic eminated from the Novus Ordo to describe people like me. I have been a Catholic in practise and belief since the late 50’s. The term Novus Ordo refers to the New Order and it is their term. We didnt invent it , they did. Relatively speaking - the changes of Vatican II are new. Now some may argue that they have “returned” to the way GOD was worshipped in ancient times - but in antiquity there is not a single shred of evidence that any of the beliefs or practises instituted after Vatican II have their origins in Catholic antiquity. Its an empty claim. So I agree - there is no such thing as a Traditional or Non Traditional Catholic. , We are all just Catholics - provided we hold to all the Dogmas of the Faith and Worship and believe in GOD in a Catholic manner as defined and held in the Deposit of Faith.

Pax
Pax

 

[ChadS]

Malleus: I agree with the premise. But in my view - those who attend the Modernist Church object to being called the Novus Ordo. They insist on retaining the “Catholic” title and not the rest of the faith as handed down in Tradition. The term Traditional Catholic eminated from the Novus Ordo to describe people like me. I have been a Catholic in practise and belief since the late 50’s. The term Novus Ordo refers to the New Order and it is their term. We didnt invent it , they did. Relatively speaking - the changes of Vatican II are new. Now some may argue that they have “returned” to the way GOD was worshipped in ancient times - but in antiquity there is not a single shred of evidence that any of the beliefs or practises instituted after Vatican II have their origins in Catholic antiquity. Its an empty claim. So I agree - there is no such thing as a Traditional or Non Traditional Catholic. , We are all just Catholics - provided we hold to all the Dogmas of the Faith and Worship and believe in GOD in a Catholic manner as defined and held in the Deposit of Faith.

Pax
Pax

We are all Catholics, yet at the same time you insinuate that those that worship using the OF in the “Modernist” church (a term that is normally considered derisive) are not really Catholics because they don’t adhere to the traditional faith. Vatican II made things up, we are told. You seem to be painting with a very wide brush that has little to do with reality. There are many good and faithful Catholics that attend the OF mass and still hold to the traditional faith – although it may not be the faith as you believe it should be held to, but it is still the Catholic faith.

ChadS

 

[Dempsey1919]

We want to attend and promote the TLM, and I don’t believe we owe anyone explanations or apologies because we’d rather travel long distances to attend a Latin Mass than go down the block to hear mass in the vernacular.

Exactly!

Many times, I have felt the need to apologise for preferring the EF Mass. The attitudes of some Catholics change immediately when they hear that I attend the EF Mass. It isn’t what they say, but it’s the way they look at me. It’s almost as if I’ve said something wrong.

People often forget that traditionalist Catholics were labelled as disobedient schismatics for many years. We were told that the Old Mass had been abolished and that we were anti-Vatican II for attending the EF Mass.

In the words of Father Z., Summorum Pontificum was an emancipation proclamation for traditionalist Catholics. Pope Benedict proved that the EF Mass had never been abrogated, and he recognised the legitimacy of our preference for the Tridentine Mass. Nobody can call us disobedient for attending the Mass of the Ages anymore!

The EF Mass has been given an equal status with the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and I hope that Traditionalist Catholics will be treated equally by everybody in the Church. I hope the pastors will begin to include traditionalists in parish activities and I hope the Bishops will consider erecting Traditional Parishes in order to meet the needs of EF Catholics.

Things are getting better for traditional Catholics, thanks to the efforts of Pope Benedict XVI. I just pray that our voices will begin to be heard in the parishes…

 

[ChurchTorch]

…The EF community isn’t really part of the parish but comes together once per week for the celebration of the EF. I**t often feels like we (traditionalists) do not belong to the parish. **

I attend the EF almost exclusively but I occasionally go to the OF. **When I see the sense of community amongst the people who attend the OF, I often wish that we in the traditionalist movement had the same opportunities to get to know one another. **

Unfortunately, the traditionalists are treated as visitors to the parish, and not as members. The priest celebrates Mass for us, but none of the traditionalists get involved in parish activities. The traditionalists don’t seem to have any kind of friendships. I know the people who regularly attend the EF Mass at my parish but I am not friends with them in the same way that the people who attend the OF are. The OF group seems to be brought together by activities such as the parish fare and the various committees they have.

The traditionalists don’t have any roles on the parish committees and they aren’t invited to join any of the parish activities.

As a traditionalist, I often feel isolated when I attend Church. I don’t feel like the traditionalist group is made to feel part of the parish and I often wish that we were invited to join activities. Have you had similar experiences?

I often wish that the Bishop would erect a traditionalist parish within the diocese. I think this would bring the traditionalists together into one community and we could all get to know one another. Do you think it would be better if traditionalists had their own parishes?

I think you’re manufacturing a problem. Your pastor celebrates the EF for you. Excellent. Why can’t those that attend that Mass also take part in other parish activities? Likely because they don’t want to. In some cases it’s because they can’t make it to the parish outside of Mass, just like some who attend the OF. Erecting a “traditionalist parish” would not help this.

When I attend the local EF there is often a very direct plea from the celebrant to please come to the parish hall after Mass for coffee and doughnuts. Few do, week after week.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Man, I just don’t get this. I sure don’t see much judgment of “traditionalists” in my diocese and I would guess that’s fairly typical. What I do see are people trying to create an evil monster that persecutes them so they can act like martyrs.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Man, I just don’t get this. I sure don’t see much judgment of “traditionalists” in my diocese and I would guess that’s fairly typical. What I do see are people trying to create an evil monster that persecutes them so they can act like martyrs.

And yet many Catholics have agreed with me on this thread. There are many traditionally minded Catholics who feel isolated in their parishes - this is a fact.

I am pleased that your parish is different. But I have personally experienced negativity from other Catholics because I attend the EF Mass.

The purpose of this thread was to find out ways that I could find some kind of fellowship at my parish, and I have received many ideas on how to do this by people who posted.

 

[ChurchTorch]

“…I agree. Traditionalist Catholics and average Catholics are different. We are all Catholics in union with the Successor of Peter, but we are very different. These differences in attitude, beliefs, and sensibilities make it difficult for traditionalists to find fellowship in OF Parishes…”

“average Catholics?” “OF Parishes?”

I think the “differences in attitude, beliefs, and sensibilities” is with you and it appears to be very divisive.

 

[ChurchTorch]

And yet many Catholics have agreed with me on this thread. There are many traditionally minded Catholics who feel isolated in their parishes - this is a fact.

I am pleased that your parish is different. But I have personally experienced negativity from other Catholics because I attend the EF Mass.

The purpose of this thread was to find out ways that I could find some kind of fellowship at my parish, and I have received many ideas on how to do this by people who posted.

Why though?

My parish has nine Masses every Sunday. When I go to just about any other parish function outside of Mass I meet a lot of people I never come in contact with at Mass. It wouldn’t make a difference if they attended the 8:00 OF or the 9:00 EF although it is common to ask “which Mass are you?”

I think most if not all of this “negativity” you speak of is self-imposed.

I attend a tiny Eastern Catholic parish now and then. They spend a great deal of time discussing and dissecting my home Latin Rite parish. Conversely, most members of my parish aren’t even aware the Eastern Rite parish exists (they keep a very low profile.) I’m not sure why this happens but I think it’s the same reason why some here feel “isolated.”

 

[Dempsey1919]

Church Torch,

I think you are deliberately trying to start arguments and derail this thread.

There is nothing wrong in what I have written in this thread, and I do not feel the need to defend my words. I respect your right to disagree with what I have written, but I will not allow you to drag me into an argument. I do not make it a habit to feed trolls.

 

[Lormar]

Church Torch

Did you come here to stir up trouble?

 

[ChurchTorch]

Church Torch,
**
I think you are deliberately trying to start arguments and derail this thread.**

There is nothing wrong in what I have written in this thread, and I do not feel the need to defend my words. I respect your right to disagree with what I have written, but I will not allow you to drag me into an argument. I do not make it a habit to feed trolls.

No, I’m not. But I do worry about the health and future of the EF in my diocese. Here locally the bishop and pastor have bent over backwards to support the EF. Over time it’s not going too well. I think the major (not the only but the major) reason for this is not the clergy or the setting or those who attend other Masses at the parish but some of those that attend the EF itself. If you truly feel “isolated” I implore you to look within as well at to look outside for the reasons you feel this way.

Get as defensive as you wish but the actions of those who attend the EFs also deserve review if they goal is truly to eradicate a feeling of isolation.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Did you come here to stir up trouble?

I think it would be best if we focused on the topic, and tried not to descend into arguments and quarrels. It would be a shame if this thread had to be locked.

 

[Lormar]

I’m not the contentious one.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Get as defensive as you wish but the actions of those who attend the EFs also deserve review if they goal is truly to eradicate a feeling of isolation.

I definitely agree with this. I think I should do more to try and create opportunities for fellowship within my diocese.