Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[yoopersenior]

No , because I go to a Church that is strictly Traditional. It took moving from San Diego to Omaha to accomplish this however , so i do feel your pain.

pax

Is Nebraska becoming a center for traditional Catholicism? I was watching EWTN’s coverage of a consecration of a large, beautiful, and new seminary church outside of
Lincoln, NE. That’s wonderful!

 

[ChurchTorch]

I definitely agree with this. I think I should do more to try and create opportunities for fellowship within my diocese.

We can ALWAYS use more fellowship!

When the little Eastern parish was started here (long before my time) the pastor demanded there be a “coffee social” after every Divine Liturgy (Mass.) Many visitors are blown away that they sit down and pretty much have a light meal together while the kids play. These coffee socials have helped the people and the parish. The pastor is fond of saying “it’s not as important as that (pointing upstairs to the sanctuary) but it’s still mighty important.”

 

[mangy_dog]

Dearly Beloved,

Celebrate each others devotions. Be happy that our catholic faith is so rich and abundant in all its facets.

I am happy for the Orthodox catholics and the Traditional catholics and everyone in between - the very devout and the chreasters.

I learn more about my faith each day from every type of catholic. I take what is good and I admonish what is not good. Without judgement, without labelling. On a “take it or leave it” kind of way.

You celebrate the Novus Ordo, then do it really well. You celebrate the Traditional Mass, do it really well.

Its wrong to put each other down just as it is wrong to abuse the liturgy in any way. God will judge us (all of us) under each discipline and each devotion.

Be true to your catholicity… do the basic catholic things really, really well and don’t get wrapped around the axle about how the other catholic celebrates or doesn’t celebrate.

Denounce, announce and renounce - but don’t loose the Love of God in the process…

…make me a channel of Your Peace…

 

[yoopersenior]

Isolated?..

I take the Mertonian view - Solitary.

In the quiet and the still…there He is.

Yes, I love being able to walk into a church where people are silent. No chattering or noticing who is walking in. To be totally immersed in God.

 

[Jane11]

Do I think traditionalists should have their own parishes?

Yes and no.
Yes, due to the fact that it would be nice to have friends.
No, for several reasons. The first being, if all the “veil wearers” were absent there would be nothing to remind them: a.) they are the ones perpetuating a priest turning his back to God, b.) they are choosing Jesus Christ, in the form of the Host, to go from unconsecrated hand to unconsecrated hand, c.) it is a choice to ignore their own brethren, d.) “For God with His holy angels will draw nigh to him who withdraws himself from his acquaintances and friends” (from My Imitation of Christ) In other words, by ignoring us they hope we will either “get with their program” or leave, i.e. what may be meant for harm God will use for our good, and e.) it begs a question to be answered; "is Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever like the scripture says?

Solution: What some smart Bishop in Seattle did - have a church within a church. It allows the Ordinary Form (let’s get the verbiage correct, it’s not the other way around) to be celebrated while at the same time receiving a “yes” in response to point “e.)” above. Therefore, it might behoove us to politely petition our Bishops.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Do I think traditionalists should have their own parishes?

Yes and no.
Yes, due to the fact that it would be nice to have friends.

Why can’t they have “friends” at a parish church where both the OF and EF are celebrated? I don’t understand this.

My parish has the Mass in English, Spanish and Portuguese. Everyone seems to get along just fine. No one group looks down on any other. Yet some seem to think that it another Mass was in Latin that there would automatically be a problem? That those attending the Mass in Latin would somehow be persecuted? That really does sound like paranoia to me.

 

[malphono]

Why can’t they have “friends” at a parish church where both the OF and EF are celebrated? I don’t understand this.

People generally gravitate to those of similar feeling, and tend to avoid those who espouse the opposite position, so it’s not surprising. Anyway, it seems to me that there is something on both sides of the argument: neither the “EF people” nor the “OF people” are totally correct.

My parish has the Mass in English, Spanish and Portuguese. Everyone seems to get along just fine. No one group looks down on any other.

Perhaps everyone “gets along” but there is no question that there is an inherent segregation involved.

Yet some seem to think that it another Mass was in Latin that there would automatically be a problem? That those attending the Mass in Latin would somehow be persecuted? That really does sound like paranoia to me.

Although no one is forcing them to attend it, there are some “OF people” who fear of the EF to such a degree that they will do anything in their power to prevent it. And if they cannot prevent it, that group will still do whatever it can do lessen its (the EF’s) effect. The fact is that the “EF people” (and trust me, all “EF people” are not ultra right-wingers dreaming of a return to the 1950s) are a minority.

 

[Malleus_01]

We are all Catholics, yet at the same time you insinuate that those that worship using the OF in the “Modernist” church (a term that is normally considered derisive) are not really Catholics because they don’t adhere to the traditional faith. Vatican II made things up, we are told. You seem to be painting with a very wide brush that has little to do with reality. There are many good and faithful Catholics that attend the OF mass and still hold to the traditional faith – although it may not be the faith as you believe it should be held to, but it is still the Catholic faith.

ChadS

Malleus. I didnt insinuate anything. I simply addressed the origin of these labels I find it ironic that many Catholics today who call themselves Catholic but do not believe in various DOGMAS of the Church (Which by and of itself separates one from the Faith) is simply overlooked or pooh poohed. Cafeteria Catholicism is alive and well. The simple fact remains - Catholics who have been Catholic since prior to Vatican II do not view these things as rational nor do they view these things as enlightening or goood for the faith. As to your statement as to whether or not there are Catholics who go to the Mass of Paul the VI and are good and faithful - yes there are - the Women cover their heads and they recieve the body of Our Lord Kneeling. I’ve seen them. My Father in Law was one of them. Went to Mass every day. But we arent the ones calling you Novus Ordo. And we arent the ones calling ourselves Traditional. Paul the VI changed the Mass and Sacraments. We didnt. for years we have been demonized by the People who did go along with the changes for refusing to. And it wasnt that long ago that those same people who use those labels to demonize us were telling us we were sinning for merely wanting to go to Tridentine Latin Mass. So clean up your own doorstep first. most of the vitriole is coming from your side of the fence. And that is evidence of who is actually Catholic in practice and not solely in name. And why my cheek is red most of the time.

pax

 

[Jane11]

Why can’t they have “friends” at a parish church where both the OF and EF are celebrated? I don’t understand this.

This would be nice but does not happen. No one, and I mean no one has spoken one word to me after a half a year. I have always been the one to initiate even a good morning.

 

[mullenpm]

Frankly, I don’t understand this post at all. Why are you naming people as “traditionalist” and not-traditionalist just because they attend different versions of the Mass. I am of an age that I remember the Church before Vatican II but I am, first of all, a Roman Catholic.

How do you actually know what is in the heart of the people who go to the EF Mass? You say they are not invited to take part in Parish activities - whose fault is that. Are they so vocal against the Pauline Mass that they are being obnoxious?

I don’t agree with another poster who says that you should start a group of other “trad” women. That is just an attempt to further divide your Parish.

If you know of anyone who has been excluded from attending Parish meetings because they go to the EF Mass on Sunday and so are labelled “traditionalist” then you must tell your Pastor. I do not believe this is happening. I sincerely believe that some people who object to the Pauline Mass have so ingrained in their mentality they see goblins where none exist.

Instead of dividing your Parish by labelling, you should start a prayer group and pray for the enlightment of all parishioners with respect to our Catholic faith and obedience to the Holy Father.:knight1:

 

[Malleus_01]

ChurchTorch;6391901:

Why can’t they have “friends” at a parish church where both the OF and EF are celebrated? I don’t understand this.

This would be nice but does not happen. No one, and I mean no one has spoken one word to me after a half a year. I have always been the one to initiate even a good morning.

Malleus: Precisely. Thats one of the reasons I sought out a strictly Traditional Parish. I was speaking to a very good friend of mine recently. His wife was involved in an accident several years ago and she was in the hospital. He went to Our Church and she refused to go very often and went to the Paul the VI Mass instead because she had several friends there. Guess who came to visit her in the hospital? All her aquaintances from Our Church. Not a single person from her Church came to see her. She soon stop going there altogether and started going to our Church exclusively. . Keep in mind this isnt my story its his. And he told it to my wife and I March 2 2010. I too have noticed that everyone is so very friendly at the Church I go to from day one. I started going there in December of 1999. So it doesnt have to be that way. There are still good Churches out there.

 

[Lormar]

I went for a brief time to an FSSP “Latin Mass Community” which shared a church with the OF people. It was a disaster. Apparently the FSSP priest thought so too, because after a few years, he asked the bishop if they could have their own church. We were treated as second class, back of the bus, Catholics. It was really horrible. One time I was in their religious shop and I overheard two women that work there talking about what they could do to get rid of us. They didn’t know I was there.

Anyway, back at my local parish, they are friendly to me until they see me with my veil on at Mass, and then the next time I see them, there is a marked difference and coolness in their attitude. It doesn’t bother me any more. We just smile and are as friendly as we can be. It’s their problem; not mine.

It’s my Church too. No one is going to push me out again. We made a big mistake leaving the first time. We’re here to take it back, and we’ll never give it away again.

 

[m134e5]

I think it is difficult to be a traditionalist in a parish that mainly celebrates the Ordinary Form. I attend a parish which celebrates the EF Mass once every Sunday. The other Masses are all OF Masses.

I am extremely grateful to my priest for celebrating the EF Mass every week. The people who attend this Mass come from miles around and most of them do not belong to the parish. The EF community isn’t really part of the parish but comes together once per week for the celebration of the EF. It often feels like we (traditionalists) do not belong to the parish.

I attend the EF almost exclusively but I occasionally go to the OF. When I see the sense of community amongst the people who attend the OF, I often wish that we in the traditionalist movement had the same opportunities to get to know one another.

Unfortunately, the traditionalists are treated as visitors to the parish, and not as members. The priest celebrates Mass for us, but none of the traditionalists get involved in parish activities. The traditionalists don’t seem to have any kind of friendships. I know the people who regularly attend the EF Mass at my parish but I am not friends with them in the same way that the people who attend the OF are. The OF group seems to be brought together by activities such as the parish fare and the various committees they have.

The traditionalists don’t have any roles on the parish committees and they aren’t invited to join any of the parish activities.

As a traditionalist, I often feel isolated when I attend Church. I don’t feel like the traditionalist group is made to feel part of the parish and I often wish that we were invited to join activities. Have you had similar experiences?

I often wish that the Bishop would erect a traditionalist parish within the diocese. I think this would bring the traditionalists together into one community and we could all get to know one another. Do you think it would be better if traditionalists had their own parishes?

I have found that traditional Catholics near me tend to be anti-social and are only interested in going to Mass. This is not a reflection on traditional Catholicism, but the more personal nature of this liturgy does make it more appealing to people who don’t like interacting with others very much.

 

[MaryMagdala]

I would LOVE to understand what is being said here … but with all the “initials” OF/EF etc … I haven’t a clue what you are talking about. If you use an acronym, please explain it.

Thanks !

 

[ChurchTorch]

Although no one is forcing them to attend it, there are some “OF people” who fear of the EF to such a degree that they will do anything in their power to prevent it. And if they cannot prevent it, that group will still do whatever it can do lessen its (the EF’s) effect. The fact is that the “EF people” (and trust me, all “EF people” are not ultra right-wingers dreaming of a return to the 1950s) are a minority.

That is so untrue. I think some try to fabricate problems that do not exist in order to justify their often questionable beliefs and behaviors.

Sure people can point to isolated cases of both OF and EF xenophobia and paranoia but I think for the most part, the EF is of little concern in any way, to those who prefer the OF. I’m not however sure the reverse is true. It actually seems like many of those who prefer the EF actually spend a considerable amount of time wondering how others perceive them when in reality neither they nor their choice of Mass is perceived at all by most Catholics.

When I attend the OF, the EF is never brought up in conversation. It’s just not on the radar. The entire focus is on the Mass being celebrated that morning. When I attend the EF, it’s considerably different. There is a tremendous amount of talk about “the Novus Ordo” Mass, other priests and other parishes during our coffee social. Most of it is negative.

I was thinking about perception the other day. As a Catholic I have often been challenged in a clearly envious way about my faith by non-Catholics yet I don’t feel an ounce of envy for their chosen faiths. I’m an American and many non-Americans take shots at the USA based out of envy. Conversely most Americans typically don’t care enough (or don’t feel envious enough) about other countries to take return shots. I’m also a Californian and I have listened to a ton of attacks born out of envy from non-Californians. They typically come from those who live in the universally least desirable locations in the lower 48. (Far fewer attacks from those that live in Colorado than Indiana for example.)

I think this extends to the Masses of the Latin Rite as well. I really don’t think the great majority of people who attend the OF care one way or the other about the EF. It’s simply not on their radars. It’s not that they fail to voice their feelings about the EF, it’s that they don’t consider it long enough to have any feelings about it. Conversely I think a rather large percentage of people who attend the EF have some rather strong opinions about the OF and those who attend it.

Subconsciously I think there might also be some resentment by those who prefer the EF towards those Catholics (which I believe would be most of the world’s Catholics) who haven’t spent enough time thinking about the EF to even have an opinion about it.

 

[Seamus_L]

It all really depends on the parish. In the Archdiocese of Chicago, where I reside, I could easily think of 5 parishes where the TLM would go over well, because the parishoners are already very traditionally minded. I could think of a great many more where it would not be received well, because the parish in question is ultra-liberal. In the case of the latter, it’s not the Latin Mass per se that offends parishoners, but rather the Traditional Catholic beliefs of those who would attend it.
The negative comments I've heard at Latin Mass coffee hours tend to be along the lines of. Church A seems to only have altar girls and women readers, Church B Had people handing out literature for a pro-abortion candidate on there property, Church C is going to have a contingent in the Gay Pride Parade. Not pleasant topics, but not things that go away if you ignore them either.

 

[mullenpm]

Lormar, I wear a veil (chapel cap) whenever I enter a Catholic Church. I have yet to have anyone look at me strangely. But, I have had women comment on my cap because it is beautiful (I ordered it online and it is made in the Jewish style). They generally ask me if I made it myself.

I did have our new Deacon comment when I introduced myself to him - he said “ah, before Vatican II”; I really did want to say to him that Vatican II never told women to stop covering their heads when entering a church but I did not want to begin a debate right after having attended Mass.:byzsoc:

 

[ColossalApostle]

I think it is difficult to be a traditionalist in a parish that mainly celebrates the Ordinary Form. I attend a parish which celebrates the EF Mass once every Sunday. The other Masses are all OF Masses.

I am extremely grateful to my priest for celebrating the EF Mass every week. The people who attend this Mass come from miles around and most of them do not belong to the parish. The EF community isn’t really part of the parish but comes together once per week for the celebration of the EF. It often feels like we (traditionalists) do not belong to the parish.

I attend the EF almost exclusively but I occasionally go to the OF. When I see the sense of community amongst the people who attend the OF, I often wish that we in the traditionalist movement had the same opportunities to get to know one another.

Unfortunately, the traditionalists are treated as visitors to the parish, and not as members. The priest celebrates Mass for us, but none of the traditionalists get involved in parish activities. The traditionalists don’t seem to have any kind of friendships. I know the people who regularly attend the EF Mass at my parish but I am not friends with them in the same way that the people who attend the OF are. The OF group seems to be brought together by activities such as the parish fare and the various committees they have.

The traditionalists don’t have any roles on the parish committees and they aren’t invited to join any of the parish activities.

As a traditionalist, I often feel isolated when I attend Church. I don’t feel like the traditionalist group is made to feel part of the parish and I often wish that we were invited to join activities. Have you had similar experiences?

I often wish that the Bishop would erect a traditionalist parish within the diocese. I think this would bring the traditionalists together into one community and we could all get to know one another. Do you think it would be better if traditionalists had their own parishes?

Hello Dempsey,

One thing that I think would help would be to have a potluck after mass so the EF members could get to know each other better. This has helped strengthen our EF members and I believe helped in us finally getting our own parish. We are still praying and having masses said to obtain our own Church but for now we have been blessed to share one. I think once your EF members have strengthened your relationships with each other you should then make your willingness to be part of the OF parish activities and events known. Ask the help of the priest to join the two groups together to promote a stronger community and charity within the Church.

The other thing to stress to OF members is that you do not hate the Novus Ordo Mass. There has been this stereotype placed on EF memebers that they hate the OF. I think it will help if EF shows that they love the OF as well (and hopefuly the OF will do the same).
Most importantly pray, and offer masses for this unity.

God Bless

 

[ChurchTorch]

It all really depends on the parish. In the Archdiocese of Chicago, where I reside, I could easily think of 5 parishes where the TLM would go over well, because the parishoners are already very traditionally minded. I could think of a great many more where it would not be received well, because the parish in question is ultra-liberal. In the case of the latter, it’s not the Latin Mass per se that offends parishoners, but rather the Traditional Catholic beliefs of those who would attend it.

The negative comments I’ve heard at Latin Mass coffee hours tend to be along the lines of. Church A seems to only have altar girls and women readers, Church B Had people handing out literature for a pro-abortion candidate on there property, Church C is going to have a contingent in the Gay Pride Parade. Not pleasant topics, but not things that go away if you ignore them either.

I hear that sorta stuff too and it sometimes stuns me. No more than 5 minutes before we were attending the Mass (EF) or the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. Now we are in the parish hall waiting for the food to be blessed and the conversations are devoted exactly to the types of things you mentioned in other parishes. Where’s the joy? There are a ton of positive things we could be talking about right within our parish. Why the focus on the negative and on other parishes, particularly in that setting? The continual focus on the negative by some groups of which I am a member can really wear one down.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Hello Dempsey,

One thing that I think would help would be to have a potluck after mass so the EF members could get to know each other better. This has helped strengthen our EF members and I believe helped in us finally getting our own parish. We are still praying and having masses said to obtain our own Church but for now we have been blessed to share one. I think once your EF members have strengthened your relationships with each other you should then make your willingness to be part of the OF parish activities and events known. Ask the help of the priest to join the two groups together to promote a stronger community and charity within the Church.

**The other thing to stress to OF members is that you do not hate the Novus Ordo Mass. ** There has been this stereotype placed on EF memebers that they hate the OF. I think it will help if EF shows that they love the OF as well (and hopefuly the OF will do the same).
Most importantly pray, and offer masses for this unity.

God Bless

I’m curious and I ask this as nicely as I can, do you use terms like “OF parish” (rather than Catholic parish) and “Novus Ordo Mass” (rather than Pauline Mass or OF Mass or Ordinary Form of the Mass) in conversation with others? If anyone uses either expression while talking to me in real life (and they certainly have), I politely excuse myself and go talk to someone else. Those types of words are a clear signal of negativity to many.

I’m also curious as to why you want your own church or maybe a better question is why don’t you already feel at home? Is your pastor not the pastor of the church in which your Masses are celebrated?

Sometimes these comments remind me of the stories we have all heard of an “Irish Catholic Church” on one corner, an “Italian Catholic Church” on another corner, a “German Catholic Church” on a third corner and a “Polish Catholic Church” on the final corner. How is division like that in any way “catholic?” Just how are most of these ethnic (and historically exclusionary) parishes doing these says?