Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[ChurchTorch]

Lormar, I wear a veil (chapel cap) whenever I enter a Catholic Church. I have yet to have anyone look at me strangely. But, I have had women comment on my cap because it is beautiful (I ordered it online and it is made in the Jewish style). They generally ask me if I made it myself.

I did have our new Deacon comment when I introduced myself to him - he said “ah, before Vatican II”; I really did want to say to him that Vatican II never told women to stop covering their heads when entering a church but I did not want to begin a debate right after having attended Mass.:byzsoc:

What a great posting! I have never heard anyone in my parish make a negative comment or give a negative look pertaining to a woman’s head covering. Not ever. Yet I continually hear some that cover their heads talking about the invisible people that they offend with their head coverings. They need to get over it already! No one cares (or probably notices for the most part) if they cover their heads or not. They need to stop making up imaginary critics so that they can play the martyr!

 

[mick321]

I am fortunate and grateful for the many opportunities that are available to those who wish to assist the Extraordinary Form across the four dioceses region where I live and work. In fact, if one is willing to do a bit of driving, it is possible to assist four EF services, in four different diocese, on the same day.

That said, none of the five parishes in the city where I reside will permit the EF to be discussed on their property or telephone lines.

My “parish” is 25 miles from my home, in the next diocese. Our weekly Sunday EF High Mass is attended by about 100 faithful. We all sing the server’s responses and alternate with the schola in Gregorian Chant. After Mass, most stop by the parish hall for refreshments. During the week, many of us attend the EF Low Mass and adult catechises session that follows. Our priests [actually Canons Regular] are members of two different Augustinian religious orders.

A number of us belong to one or both of the UnaVoce chapters that are active in our region. We work as a lay movement within the Church for an organic restoration of the liturgy in conformity with its nature and with the Latin tradition. We network with other traditional groups in the area and provide resources for priests to celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite as called for in Summorum Pontificum.
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[ColossalApostle]

I’m curious and I ask this as nicely as I can, do you use terms like “OF parish” (rather than Catholic parish) and “Novus Ordo Mass” (rather than Pauline Mass or OF Mass or Ordinary Form of the Mass) in conversation with others? If anyone uses either expression while talking to me in real life (and they certainly have), I politely excuse myself and go talk to someone else. Those types of words are a clear signal of negativity to many.

No I do not but I also do not see the harm in calling them OF Parishes especially when these Catholic Parishes at times neither want and sometimes protest the EF form of the Mass. Regardless when I use the term OF Parish or Novus Ordo Mass it is not to be negative. I personally don’t like any of this including the titles traditionalist or modernist.

I’m also curious as to why you want your own church or maybe a better question is why don’t you already feel at home? Is your pastor not the pastor of the church in which your Masses are celebrated?

Well we didn’t feel at home because at first we didn’t even have a Church to call home! Not because there was a shortage of Catholic Churches but because the parishes of the Churches didn’t want to share space with us catholics that wanted to celebrate the Tridentine (or known now as the EF) Mass! This type of situation was the reason for why we have been following the Tridentine Mass in my state from small chapel to small chapel because all of the priests that have been celebrating the EF form have been volunteering their services. None of these priests were part of any parish. No most of them were Jesuits from the university. It wasn’t until recently that we finally have been recognized as a parish and have been given an amazing priest assigned to us from the priestly fraternity of St. Peter. And what would you know now that we have become a recognized parish one Catholic Parish that only celebrated the Pauline Mass has let us share space with them.

Sometimes these comments remind me of the stories we have all heard of an “Irish Catholic Church” on one corner, an “Italian Catholic Church” on another corner, a “German Catholic Church” on a third corner and a “Polish Catholic Church” on the final corner. How is division like that in any way “catholic?” Just how are most of these ethnic (and historically exclusionary) parishes doing these says?

What’s funny is if it was just the Tridentine Mass it would have been one catholic church on every corner since Latin would have been the standard language for each Church =). Either way I’m sick of all of the labels and divisions and look forward to the day where both forms of Masses are said with reverence and love in one parish.

 

[malphono]

Although no one is forcing them to attend it, there are some “OF people” who fear

the EF to such a degree that they will do anything in their power to prevent it. And if they cannot prevent it, that group will still do whatever it can do lessen its (the EF’s) effect. The fact is that the “EF people” (and trust me, all “EF people” are not ultra right-wingers dreaming of a return to the 1950s) are a minority.That is so untrue. I think some try to fabricate problems that do not exist in order to justify their often questionable beliefs and behaviors.

Sure people can point to isolated cases of both OF and EF xenophobia and paranoia but I think for the most part, the EF is of little concern in any way, to those who prefer the OF.

I never said or even intimated that such was the position of the majority but, think what you want, it is true nonetheless. I, for one, have seen it in action repeatedly over the past 40 years, and I can say that Summorum Pontificum has had little effect in dampening the “spirit” of that select little group of “reformers” who insist on impeding the EF.

And BTW, there is no “justification” or anything of the like implied. That should be quite clear from the first part of my earlier post:

People generally gravitate to those of similar feeling, and tend to avoid those who espouse the opposite position, so it’s not surprising. Anyway, it seems to me that there is something on both sides of the argument: neither the “EF people” nor the “OF people” are totally correct.

 

[KC91]

My diocese is ‘middle of the road’ with the extraordinary form being offered only once a month, but in compensation the Bishop celebrates it himself. So it’s allright here, not popular but not isolated.

However one would feel very isolated in for example, France due to the many ‘progressive’ Bishops there.

 

[Michael_Vernon]

Focusing on external things can make someone feel isolated anywhere except in one’s own particular house. That is not what Christ has called us to. Love of God and love of one’s neighbor never leaves one feeling alone. Can you imagine Jesus going into the house of any disciple who loves Him and saying, “I’m not comfortable here; I feel isolated”?

 

[ChurchTorch]

…What’s funny is if it was just the Tridentine Mass it would have been one catholic church on every corner since Latin would have been the standard language for each Church =). Either way I’m sick of all of the labels and divisions and look forward to the day where both forms of Masses are said with reverence and love in one parish.

What’s sad is that it was only the EF in Latin in all those ethnic parishes. There was commonly no Mass in the vernacular back then. You say you’re tired of “all the labels and divisions” (as am I!!) yet you cannot wait to leave to your own physical parish? It would seem that mindset of separation would be one of the things that would go to limit the growth of the EF in the Church for the future.

 

[pro_multis]

I’m curious and I ask this as nicely as I can, do you use terms like “OF parish” (rather than Catholic parish) and “Novus Ordo Mass” (rather than Pauline Mass or OF Mass or Ordinary Form of the Mass) in conversation with others? If anyone uses either expression while talking to me in real life (and they certainly have), I politely excuse myself and go talk to someone else. Those types of words are a clear signal of negativity to many.

I think the real question is do you actually use the term “ordinary form” in conversations, because outside of this obscure message board, I have never heard of it, yet everyone knows what Novus Ordo means. I could be wrong, but I believe the term “ordinary form” is an invented word of the past year or so.

 

[ChurchTorch]

I never said or even intimated that such was the position of the majority but, think what you want, it is true nonetheless. I, for one, have seen it in action repeatedly over the past 40 years, and I can say that Summorum Pontificum has had little effect in dampening the “spirit” of that select little group of “reformers” who insist on impeding the EF.

And BTW, there is no “justification” or anything of the like implied. That should be quite clear from the first part of my earlier post:

Let be more specific in that case. I think notions like “OF people who fear the EF to such a degree that they will do anything in their power to prevent it” is largely the constructs of those who wish to feel persecuted so they can vent against imagined poor treatment.

 

[ChurchTorch]

I think the real question is do you actually use the term “ordinary form” in conversations, because outside of this obscure message board, I have never heard of it, yet everyone knows what Novus Ordo means. I could be wrong, but I believe the term “ordinary form” is an invented word of the past year or so.

I use “OF.”

ANYONE who understands what “Novus Ordo” means will know what “OF” or “Ordinary Form” means. The Pope coined those two terms for a reason. It’s OK though – the use of “Novus Ordo” is a good trigger for me to move a long…

 

[malphono]

Let be more specific in that case. I think notions like “OF people who fear the EF to such a degree that they will do anything in their power to prevent it” is largely the constructs of those who wish to feel persecuted so they can vent against imagined poor treatment.

No, it’s not. But, as I said earlier, you may think what you wish.

 

[pro_multis]

I use “OF.”

ANYONE who understands what “Novus Ordo” means will know what “OF” or “Ordinary Form” means.

Wow that is quite an assumption. I guaranntee my parents and grandparents have no clue what the “ordinary form” means (but they all know what the N.O. is), along with almost anyone who was born before the mid fifties.

In the end you can call it whatever makes you feel good–doesn’t change the fact that it is what it is.

 

[CradleCath]

Wow that is quite an assumption. I guaranntee my parents and grandparents have no clue what the “ordinary form” means (but they all know what the N.O. is), along with almost anyone who was born before the mid fifties.

In the end you can call it whatever makes you feel good–doesn’t change the fact that it is what it is.

Yes. And it is very ordinary.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Wow that is quite an assumption. I guaranntee my parents and grandparents have no clue what the “ordinary form” means (but they all know what the Novus Ordo is), along with almost anyone who was born before the mid fifties.

In the end you can call it whatever makes you feel good–doesn’t change the fact that it is what it is.

“Wow”, certainly no bigger of an assumption than this:

I think the real question is do you actually use the term “ordinary form” in conversations, because outside of this obscure message board, I have never heard of it, yet everyone knows what Novus Ordo means. I could be wrong, but I believe the term “ordinary form” is an invented word of the past year or so.

The Church NEVER officially refers to the Mass of Pope Pius VI as the “Novus Ordo” Mass. Some are just not aware of that.

 

[ColossalApostle]

What’s sad is that it was only the EF in Latin in all those ethnic parishes. There was commonly no Mass in the vernacular back then. You say you’re tired of “all the labels and divisions” (as am I!!) yet you cannot wait to leave to your own physical parish? It would seem that mindset of separation would be one of the things that would go to limit the growth of the EF in the Church for the future.

My friend as I stated earlier we have just become a parish but we are a parish without a church. Currently we are sharing a church with another parish but only under the condition that we leave once we have found a church to call our own. Now are we leaving because we are opposed to the idea of integrating in with the current parish? No! Unfortunately though the current pasrish does not want us staying there forever so we have decided to look for our own Church.

This type of situation has been the sad reality of things for the past 50 some years. Before that the EF was the ordinary form and all of the Churches were our homes and our parishes! Then the “spirit” of Vatican II rushed in and instead of talking to us about sharing our homes it quickly gathered us and our belongings up and tossed them outside as if we were a relic of the past. Even now that the understanding has been made we are not a relic and after we have gathered our things to come back to our former churches which were our homes we find that we are STILL not welcomed! No this current separation is not a result of EF members not wanting to share but more because most parishes that celebrate the OF only want that form and will not allow us back in the churches that were once ours.

God bless

 

[MaryMagdala]

Well, I think if you mean Latin Rite you should say Latin Rite … all these initials/acronyms are confusing to those of us who don’t know what you are talking about.

And I believe the term used for separating from the church because of different thoughts is called schism:

a division or a split, usually between people belonging to an organization or movement, most frequently applied to a break of communion between two sections of Christianity that were previously a single body

I hardly think it would be worth THAT?

 

[pro_multis]

“Wow”, certainly no bigger of an assumption than this:

The Church NEVER officially refers to the Mass of Pope Pius VI as the “Novus Ordo” Mass. Some are just not aware of that.

You can call it whatever you want…it does not change what it is.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Why is it that these kinds of threads always end up as arguments? I started this thread because I wanted to know if others felt a sense of isolation because they had to move from parish to parish to attend their preferred Mass. I did this with the best intentions.

Please do not argue about terminology. The only reason I use these terms is because they are an easy way to differentiate between the various Catholics who prefer different forms of the Mass.

Please do not argue. Let us all remember that we are all brothers in Christ united to the Successor of St. Peter. I started this thread because I often feel the divisions in my parish and I find them troubling. Instead of bickering amongst ourselves, we should try to think of ways we can all come together disciples of Christ.

 

[mullenpm]

Dempsey, you are so right. I have always disliked the labels that we as Catholics put on ourselves. I grew up pre-Vatican II when we were all “Roman” Catholics. Most of the signs in front of Catholic Churches to this day say “Roman Catholic.”

Now, people call themselves: Traditionalists, Latin Catholics (that one I don’t understand), Cradle Catholics (that one I really dislike), etc.:grouphug:

We are still all the same - Roman Catholics (which is what our Holy Father calls us, and I will always follow the lead of the Holy Father).:knight2::knight1:

This Forum always leads to arguments - perhaps when the new Missal is released in 2011 we will start all over with a group of new complaints from those among us who want it their own way, regardless of what comes from Rome.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Well, I think if you mean Latin Rite you should say Latin Rite … all these initials/acronyms are confusing to those of us who don’t know what you are talking about.

And I believe the term used for separating from the church because of different thoughts is called schism:

a division or a split, usually between people belonging to an organization or movement, most frequently applied to a break of communion between two sections of Christianity that were previously a single body

I hardly think it would be worth THAT?

There are two principle forms of the Mass within the Latin (Roman) Rite. The Ordinary Form of the Mass (Mass of Pope Pius VI) and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (Tridentine Mass.)

They are not separate church rites.