Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[Timothysis]

On the previous page I gave an example and a link to a Vatican document where Pope Paul VI refers to the “Novus Ordo Missae” several times. I don’t have the time or patience to search through all of the Vatican archives in Latin to find every instance that it has been used. Perhaps someone else does.

The phrase “Novus Ordo Missae” refers to the missal itself (hence the word missae), to distinguish it from the previous missal of Pope John XXIII. It is NOT the title of the missal. The missal of Pope John XIII AND the missal of Pope Paul VI is correctly titled the Roman Missal, just as Pope Pius V’s missal, though commonly referred to as the Tridentine, is technically titled the Roman Missal. If anything else is necessary to mention, the GIRM stands for the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, not the General Instruction of the Novus Ordo. Though you may disagree, I will not change my opinion of the following that "The term “Novus Ordo” is not used in official Church documents or by academic liturgists" until you can show me otherwise.

Look, its the same as the pejorative “Roman Catholic.” While many today declare themselves to be Roman Catholics they fail to understand that the term “Roman” Catholic was created by protestants to suggest that Catholics were followers more of the papacy than of Christ’s Church. In reality, we can say that the term “Roman” Catholic is a misnomer, for it does not fit the definition to which it is applied. The same can be said for the term “Novus Ordo.” It is not, and has never been the title of the Missal of Pope Paul VI.

My point is that it rebuts the claim that Rome has never used the term. It also rebuts the claim that “Novus Ordo” is somehow a derogatory term made up by crazy traditionalists who hate the OF.

I’m not convinced of that.

 

[ChurchTorch]

The phrase “Novus Ordo Missae” refers to the missal itself (hence the word missae), to distinguish it from the previous missal of Pope John XXIII. It is NOT the title of the missal…

Precisely. I’m not sure why some have a problem with that. Then again I have no idea why any Catholic would use monikers like “Novus Ordo” and “N.O. Mass” when other Catholics find the terms offensive, PARTICULARLY when Pope Benedict has given us clean and clear names for both liturgies…

 

[ChurchTorch]

On the previous page I gave an example and a link to a Vatican document where Pope Paul VI refers to the “Novus Ordo Missae” several times. I don’t have the time or patience to search through all of the Vatican archives in Latin to find every instance that it has been used. Perhaps someone else does.

My point is that it rebuts the claim that Rome has never used the term. It also rebuts the claim that “Novus Ordo” is somehow a derogatory term made up by crazy traditionalists who hate the OF.

The Pope’s vocal comments AIN’T the Church in this context. Your comment “rebuts” absolutely nothing.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Torchy, This is at least the 4th time you’ve used the name of Pope Pius VI,

Paul. Hope you didn’t lay awake wondering about my typos…

 

[larsont7]

You’re confused. Very rarely do I hear “Novus Ordo” and certainly “NO” used by those who prefer the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Before the Pope gave us the definitions of OF and EF I most heard “Pauline Mass.”

I’m fairly certain the Pope anticipated all of this so he was extra careful in choosing OF and EF. Simple to use and unoffensive to all, yet some cannot stop taking little shots at the OF…

Am I confused because I do hear Novus Ordo frequently and you do not? Even on this very site, which is run primarily (to my limited knowledge of the staff anyway) by those who attend the OF use the term Novus Ordo. Again, I have only been Catholic for over 14 years now, but I rarely ever hear the term Pauline Mass being used over Novus Ordo. Even in the parish I was in before we got our own, the priest (who celebrated the OF) distinguished the different Masses as the NO and Tridentine Masses. Perhaps it’s a regional thing or just a message board thing?

 

[larsont7]

I think the great majority of those who attend the EF look down upon the OF Mass itself and they often do it in a very vocal manner to anyone who will listen. That’s extremely bad form. I don’t think most who attend the OF (a far larger number of course) really care about the EF one way or the other.

I have seen many, many people tear into the OF on this forum and others. I see far fewer tear into the EF and I find that interesting.

Perhaps I read your original post incorrectly when I thought you meant those who attend the EF look down upon the “people” who attend the OF, and not the OF in itself. Like I said, arguments can be made about which Mass is “better” (for lack of a better term), but that was not the point I was trying to get across. In my experience of having attended both the OF and EF, I rarely see anyone denigrading “people” who attend one Mass over the other. Usually it just comes down to personal preference. Perhaps your experiences have been different than my own.

Regarding the issue of those who attend the OF not caring about the EF, I think that mainly comes down to awareness. The EF is still very rare in this country and throughout the world, and most don’t even know where to find the EF (even here in Omaha with a vibrant EF community, we’re still relatively unknown). I think the main reason the EF parishioners are more vocal about the OF is because EVERYONE who attends the EF has experience with the OF in one way or another. And on forums such as these labeled “Traditional Catholicism”, of course you’re going to get more of that here. I’m sure if you visited a Call to Action website forum (if they even have one), you would find much the opposite.

I just think it’s unfair to say most of one particular group looks down upon another without knowing everyone’s hearts. Maybe a poll would be the best solution: “Do you attend the EF or OF, and do you look down upon those who attend the other?” and see what kind of response you get. I’ll be your first respondent: I prefer the EF, yet I receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in both the EF and the OF. I look down upon no one but myself.

If you want to discuss why I prefer the EF, that’s another forum topic altogether and I’m always willing to share my feelings with anyone about that. God bless.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Perhaps I read your original post incorrectly when I thought you meant those who attend the EF look down upon the “people” who attend the OF, and not the OF in itself. Like I said, arguments can be made about which Mass is “better” (for lack of a better term), but that was not the point I was trying to get across. In my experience of having attended both the OF and EF, I rarely see anyone denigrading “people” who attend one Mass over the other. Usually it just comes down to personal preference. Perhaps your experiences have been different than my own.

**No valid argument can be made about which Mass is “better.” That’s a stunningly incorrect comment. ** People certainly can have opinion about which they prefer, which nourishes them best, but to say the EF (or OF) is objectively “better” than the other? Hogwash.

As far as personal preference, that’s exactly right! Tell me though – why does it seem like Catholics who prefer the OF care little or not at all about the EF, yet those who prefer the EF seem almost obsessed at times about the OF?

I find the same attitude at the local Byzantine Catholic parish. People there seem obsessed about the Latin Rite and local parishes in particular. Their comments are quite negative. On the other hand, most Latin Rite Catholics don’t even know the Byzantine parish exists. Must be an envy/pride thing.

Regarding the issue of those who attend the OF not caring about the EF, I think that mainly comes down to awareness. The EF is still very rare in this country and throughout the world, and most don’t even know where to find the EF (even here in Omaha with a vibrant EF community, we’re still relatively unknown). I think the main reason the EF parishioners are more vocal about the OF is because EVERYONE who attends the EF has experience with the OF in one way or another. And on forums such as these labeled “Traditional Catholicism”, of course you’re going to get more of that here. I’m sure if you visited a Call to Action website forum (if they even have one), you would find much the opposite.

I don’t think they care – and there really is nothing wrong with that. They are happy and secure in their faith and they like the OF. Done deal. They aren’t obligated to investigate that in which they might not have any interest.

I just think it’s unfair to say most of one particular group looks down upon another without knowing everyone’s hearts. Maybe a poll would be the best solution: “Do you attend the EF or OF, and do you look down upon those who attend the other?” and see what kind of response you get. I’ll be your first respondent: I prefer the EF, yet I receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in both the EF and the OF. I look down upon no one but myself.

I’ve been following the OF/EF debate for a very long time. Years ago some claimed the OF wasn’t valid. After getting beaten over the head long enough with the facts theyy transitioned into the “organic growth argument.” Now that garbage is waning too.

Similarly I well remember the vitriol aimed at bishops and priests who would not allow the EF. That changed with the release of SP. Then the bishops and priest got beat-up because either they were not following SP (per the critics at least) or at the very least they were moving too slowly. Now those discussions are on the wane yet the EF really hasn’t taken off. A new villain must be found!

Now the villain are those Latin Rite Catholics who don’t celebrate or attend the EF. They are afraid of the EF. Now they become the target for all the pent-up vitriol AND a convenient excuse for the EF not taking off like some was sure it would.

Again, I just don’t think most Catholics care enough about the EF to form an opinion about it. “Scared?” Hardly.

If you want to discuss why I prefer the EF, that’s another forum topic altogether and I’m always willing to share my feelings with anyone about that. God bless.

I just object the absurd notion that those who prefer the OF are “afraid” of the EF. That’s ridiculous.

 

[mick321]

No valid argument can be made about which Mass is “better.” That’s a stunningly incorrect comment. People certainly can have opinion about which they prefer, which nourishes them best, but to say the EF (or OF) is objectively “better” than the other? Hogwash.

As far as personal preference, that’s exactly right! Tell me though – why does it seem like Catholics who prefer the OF care little or not at all about the EF, yet those who prefer the EF seem almost obsessed at times about the OF?

I find the same attitude at the local Byzantine Catholic parish. People there seem obsessed about the Latin Rite and local parishes in particular. Their comments are quite negative. On the other hand, most Latin Rite Catholics don’t even know the Byzantine parish exists. Must be an envy/pride thing.

I don’t think they care – and there really is nothing wrong with that. They are happy and secure in their faith and they like the OF. Done deal. They aren’t obligated to investigate that in which they might not have any interest.

I’ve been following the OF/EF debate for a very long time. Years ago some claimed the OF wasn’t valid. After getting beaten over the head long enough with the facts theyy transitioned into the “organic growth argument.” Now that garbage is waning too.

Similarly I well remember the vitriol aimed at bishops and priests who would not allow the EF. That changed with the release of SP. Then the bishops and priest got beat-up because either they were not following SP (per the critics at least) or at the very least they were moving too slowly. Now those discussions are on the wane yet the EF really hasn’t taken off. A new villain must be found!

Now the villain are those Latin Rite Catholics who don’t celebrate or attend the EF. They are afraid of the EF. Now they become the target for all the pent-up vitriol AND a convenient excuse for the EF not taking off like some was sure it would.

Again, I just don’t think most Catholics care enough about the EF to form an opinion about it. “Scared?” Hardly.

I just object the absurd notion that those who prefer the OF are “afraid” of the EF. That’s ridiculous.

You paint a quite a picture of your fellow Novus Ordo Catholics. I’m curious now. Are these folks close personal friends of yours? Do you find them typical of those who attend the OF in your diocese? Do you normally gravitate toward them or they to you? Are you sure the are Catholic? Are they recent converts? RCIA graduates? Have they received any of the Sacraments? Can they name the current Pope? Can you? And who are you anyway? Where are you from? Aside from Clay Aiken, who else around here knows you?

 

[albertjazz]

At the Cathedral Church of St.John the Baptist in Norwich Norfolk England [formerly the largest parish church in the UK] I am unable to attend a Tridentine Mass on any day of the week,let alone a Tridentine Mass on Sunday in order to carry out my Sunday Obligation.
The Bishop and Clergy drag their heels,and place all excuses for their actions.I feel totally isolated in this parish,My parish.
I do not attend the Norvo Ordo Mass there with its unruly congregation,the noise.the lack of devotion to the real presence etc etc with the exception to make my Easter Duties.Other times I attend an Anglo Catholic Mass,but not in communion here in Norwich
This magnificent Church was vandalised following V2 by the priest in charge.The High Alter and Communion Rail,The Pulpit,The Holy Statues and artefacts,all demolished.The Music Liber Usualis.Benediction Music.The various song Masses performed at High Mass .all bonfired
Iand many others in this Diocese of East Anglia feel Isolated

 

[jonpd]

Some comments on terminology, since they seem to have become so divisive.

I agree that the terms OF and EF to describe the two forms of the Latin Rite are better. However they were not in common use until the Holy Father used them a couple of years ago, so those that object to the older terms should be patient with people who use the older terms such as NO out of habit.

As for the term Traditionalist, I agree that people who choose to attend the OF Mass can be traditionalists; however I would think that they would at least respect the EF as it represents the Mass that has been said in the church for the last 1000 to 1500 years and probably beyond that. Not sure how someone could say they are Traditional and not at least respect this link to the past.

 

[ChadS]

At the Cathedral Church of St.John the Baptist in Norwich Norfolk England [formerly the largest parish church in the UK] I am unable to attend a Tridentine Mass on any day of the week,let alone a Tridentine Mass on Sunday in order to carry out my Sunday Obligation.
The Bishop and Clergy drag their heels,and place all excuses for their actions.I feel totally isolated in this parish,My parish.
I do not attend the Norvo Ordo Mass there with its unruly congregation,the noise.the lack of devotion to the real presence etc etc with the exception to make my Easter Duties.Other times I attend an Anglo Catholic Mass,but not in communion here in Norwich
This magnificent Church was vandalised following V2 by the priest in charge.The High Alter and Communion Rail,The Pulpit,The Holy Statues and artefacts,all demolished.The Music Liber Usualis.Benediction Music.The various song Masses performed at High Mass .all bonfired
Iand many others in this Diocese of East Anglia feel Isolated

So … if I read your post correctly, and I think I have … you basically attend a Protestant church for 51 Sundays out of the year except for Easter, when you go to a Catholic Mass. I realize that the liturgy at the Catholic parish might not be as you like it or the church may not be decorated as you think it should be, but abandoning it for a Protestant church that has a liturgy you find appealing, yet lacks the Eucharist is not the answer.

ChadS

 

[larsont7]

**No valid argument can be made about which Mass is “better.” That’s a stunningly incorrect comment. ** People certainly can have opinion about which they prefer, which nourishes them best, but to say the EF (or OF) is objectively “better” than the other? Hogwash..

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. “Better” is a relative term, and some might say the EF with its reverence and beauty, along with all the extra prayers that were removed from the OF make it “better.” Again, I’m not arguing that nor was that at all my point, but the argument can certainly be made. Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean everyone agrees with you. Love the use of hogwash, though. There’s one I haven’t heard used in awhile.

As far as personal preference, that’s exactly right! Tell me though – why does it seem like Catholics who prefer the OF care little or not at all about the EF, yet those who prefer the EF seem almost obsessed at times about the OF?
I find the same attitude at the local Byzantine Catholic parish. People there seem obsessed about the Latin Rite and local parishes in particular. Their comments are quite negative. On the other hand, most Latin Rite Catholics don’t even know the Byzantine parish exists. Must be an envy/pride thing.

You must have missed my entire point regarding why those who prefer the OF care little about the EF, since most DON’T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT. Those who attend the EF regularly see and hear all about the OF. The same is not true about those who attend the OF. And you must admit some negative comments about certain parishes (especially those with liturgical abuses taking place) are well deserved. I wasn’t born before Vatican II, but I’m guessing if there were abuses within the EF at a parish back then, people would speak negatively of it.

I don’t think they care – and there really is nothing wrong with that. They are happy and secure in their faith and they like the OF. Done deal. They aren’t obligated to investigate that in which they might not have any interest.

I think everyone should care when there are abuses in the sacred liturgy, regardless of whether its in the EF or the OF. I challenge you to find a large number of those who attend the EF who would talk negatively of a holy, reverent Mass celebrated in the OF. EWTN airs the Daily Mass, and I have found it to be very holy and have not heard one negative complaint regarding it from anyone who attends the EF.

I’ve been following the OF/EF debate for a very long time. Years ago some claimed the OF wasn’t valid. After getting beaten over the head long enough with the facts theyy transitioned into the “organic growth argument.” Now that garbage is waning too.

With this statement, I’m getting the feeling that we’re not talking about the same group of people. If you are talking about those who are sedevacantists or other groups not in union with the Catholic Church, then our entire discussion is pointless. When I speak of those attending the EF, I refer only to those who are in union with Rome. Yes, anyone who claims the OF is INVALID will obviously look down upon those who attend it. Those same people also look down upon those who validly and licitly attend the EF.

Similarly I well remember the vitriol aimed at bishops and priests who would not allow the EF. That changed with the release of SP. Then the bishops and priest got beat-up because either they were not following SP (per the critics at least) or at the very least they were moving too slowly. Now those discussions are on the wane yet the EF really hasn’t taken off. A new villain must be found!
Now the villain are those Latin Rite Catholics who don’t celebrate or attend the EF. They are afraid of the EF. Now they become the target for all the pent-up vitriol AND a convenient excuse for the EF not taking off like some was sure it would.

Wow, I am saddened to hear your experiences have been so negative. Perhaps too much time on message boards? I don’t know if you hang out with a lot of people who attend the EF or not, but the only one I know personally who hates the OF and treats them as villians has left the Church and is now a sedevacantist. I think these boards have hardened your opinion of those who attend the EF, because most of us don’t look to make enemies within our own Church. If you’re ever in Omaha, stop by our parish and I guarantee you will not find the people you are talking about here.

Again, I just don’t think most Catholics care enough about the EF to form an opinion about it. “Scared?” Hardly.
I just object the absurd notion that those who prefer the OF are “afraid” of the EF. That’s ridiculous.

I agree with you here. I don’t think most who attend the OF are afraid of the EF, but I certainly believe there are some more “progressive” Catholics that are. These groups (who usually tend to believe in ordination of women, access to birth control and abortion, etc.) are very afraid that “their” church is becoming too conservative. If the liturgy starts looking more like it was before Vatican II, I think they fear that their agenda will never take place.

 

[Timothysis]

As for the term Traditionalist, I agree that people who choose to attend the OF Mass can be traditionalists; however I would think that they would at least respect the EF as it represents the Mass that has been said in the church for the last 1000 to 1500 years and probably beyond that. Not sure how someone could say they are Traditional and not at least respect this link to the past.

An excellent post and a point that I have been trying to make. I have never read here anyone having “fear” or a disordered repulsion for the EF, yet when criticisms of the OF surface the inevitable “Clown Mass” or “inorganic growth” claims come quickly along with the “conspiracy theories” of the “Novus Ordo.” Even now, the thread “A Mass for sinners”, in the first post, says that the EF is a “Mass for sinners” while the OF is a “Mass for saints.” Huh? Why is it the “traditionalist” mentality demands respect in one direction but refuses to give it in another?

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t speak ill of those who attend mass in the vernacular, nor does anyone else I know who also attends the Latin mass. In most cases our priests do not exclusively say the TLM, so we’d have to criticize them as well if we did. What we do believe and pray for though, is an eventual restoration of the Latin mass as the primary one for the entire Roman Catholic Church.

 

[ChurchTorch]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. “Better” is a relative term, and some might say the EF with its reverence and beauty, along with all the extra prayers that were removed from the OF make it “better.” Again, I’m not arguing that nor was that at all my point, but the argument can certainly be made. Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean everyone agrees with you. Love the use of hogwash, though. There’s one I haven’t heard used in awhile.

No, you’re simply objectively wrong in this case. And please, please don’t try to co-mingle the quality in which a given Mass is celebrated with the quality of the Mass’ construct.

You must have missed my entire point regarding why those who prefer the OF care little about the EF, since most DON’T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT. Those who attend the EF regularly see and hear all about the OF. The same is not true about those who attend the OF. And you must admit some negative comments about certain parishes (especially those with liturgical abuses taking place) are well deserved. I wasn’t born before Vatican II, but I’m guessing if there were abuses within the EF at a parish back then, people would speak negatively of it.

The negative comments about other parishes smack of problems within themselves and their current parish. Knock-off the gossip already and be happy with the EF.

I think everyone should care when there are abuses in the sacred liturgy, regardless of whether its in the EF or the OF. I challenge you to find a large number of those who attend the EF who would talk negatively of a holy, reverent Mass celebrated in the OF. EWTN airs the Daily Mass, and I have found it to be very holy and have not heard one negative complaint regarding it from anyone who attends the EF.

Again don’t co-mingle! We are talking about different forms of the Mass and not “abuses.”

With this statement, I’m getting the feeling that we’re not talking about the same group of people. If you are talking about those who are sedevacantists or other groups not in union with the Catholic Church, then our entire discussion is pointless. When I speak of those attending the EF, I refer only to those who are in union with Rome. Yes, anyone who claims the OF is INVALID will obviously look down upon those who attend it. Those same people also look down upon those who validly and licitly attend the EF.

Alrighty.

Wow, I am saddened to hear your experiences have been so negative. Perhaps too much time on message boards? I don’t know if you hang out with a lot of people who attend the EF or not, but the only one I know personally who hates the OF and treats them as villians has left the Church and is now a sedevacantist. I think these boards have hardened your opinion of those who attend the EF, because most of us don’t look to make enemies within our own Church. If you’re ever in Omaha, stop by our parish and I guarantee you will not find the people you are talking about here.

While I attend the EF about once a month, I attend the OF and the Divine Liturgy each week. My Eastern parish is largely made up of “traditionalist” Latin Righters. The negative talk about other parishes and the OF is non-stop. It is with the people at the EF Mass too, when I do attend and stick around.

I agree with you here. I don’t think most who attend the OF are afraid of the EF, but I certainly believe there are some more “progressive” Catholics that are. These groups (who usually tend to believe in ordination of women, access to birth control and abortion, etc.) are very afraid that “their” church is becoming too conservative. If the liturgy starts looking more like it was before Vatican II, I think they fear that their agenda will never take place.

People on these forums are claiming that a “fear” of the EF (including members of the hierarchy) is holding the EF back. That different than what you typed above. I think it’s also malarkey.

 

[ChurchTorch]

I don’t speak ill of those who attend mass in the vernacular, nor does anyone else I know who also attends the Latin mass. In most cases our priests do not exclusively say the TLM, so we’d have to criticize them as well if we did. What we do believe and pray for though, is an eventual restoration of the Latin mass as the primary one for the entire Roman Catholic Church.

Why on Earth would you pray for that? And how on Earth do you feel you could make such prayer known without offending others?

If your prayers on this matter are silent, then it’s really no one business. If you pray such prayers as part of your gathering for the Mass I think that would be highly inappropriate. Even more inappropriate would be to comment about such prayers taking place.

What do you think most who prefer the EF would do if they happened to attend an OF and just before it began there were prayers to keep the sustain the primacy of the OF? Those people who prefer the EF would go wild! The on-line forums would be lit-up! Letters to pastors, bishops and whoever else would listen!

 

[Dempsey1919]

This thread is now totally off topic. The only purpose of this thread was for *traditionalist *Catholics - those who attend the EF - to discuss the isolation they felt as a result of having to move from parish to parish in order to attend their preferred Mass.

Certain individuals have deliberately derailed this thread away from the topic. This thread was not created to argue about the merits of the EF versus the OF. If you want to bicker and argue about the two forms of the Roman rite, please start another thread.

 

[Timothysis]

This thread is now totally off topic. The only purpose of this thread was for *traditionalist *Catholics - those who attend the EF - to discuss the isolation they felt as a result of having to move from parish to parish in order to attend their preferred Mass.

So, it is now defined that a "traditionalist Catholic" can only be one who attends the EF? The Holy Father celebrates the OF on a regular basis; does that mean he and the bishops of the world are not “traditionalists?”

 

[Dempsey1919]

So, it is now defined that a “traditionalist Catholic” can only be one who attends the EF? The Holy Father celebrates the OF on a regular basis; does that mean he and the bishops of the world are not “traditionalists?”

This is getting ridiculous. The constant bickering about stupid things must stop. You know what I meant when I referred to traditionalists in my previous post. I didn’t mean anything by it. I said traditionalist because it is an easy way to label those Catholics who attend the traditional Mass.

 

[Seamus_L]

No we don’t pray for it openly in church, but it’s something many of us believe in. I pray for the continual growth and spread of the Latin Mass.