Does being more radical make you more holy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Henri_Searcher
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

Henri_Searcher

Guest
When I first became a commited and converted Catholic (about ten years ago) I was of the opinion that the more radical one was the more holy you’d be. By radical I mean: radical break from worldliness in any sense and doing lots of external penances: fasting and all that. I looked up to the religious orders that were the most radical: those that really saught to wear down the “old Adam” by sheer will power and exertion. These guys I thought were the Marines of the Spiritual life. Look at the effort, look at the blood, sweat and tears (almost!)
Radical meant being in peoples’ faces about the faith. It meant never missing a chance to tell Protestants where the True Church was. Never failing to tell non-Christian youngsters that were co-habiting to mend their ways…always being up tight in their presence and worrying about their eternal salvation.
However recently I can see that too much of all the wonderful Catholic methods for corresponding to grace can be harmful. They can make us imbalanced…too much living in the sacristy of life! I now see that holiness is Wholeness and thus requires of us great humanity and the enhancement of our human skills too. How can there be genuine charity without it? I myself used to go to my old protestant friends armed with dogmatic explanations about why the Truth was in the One Church. You must come back to us. Recently I have seen that dialogue and real friendship mean so much more…they are so much more effective in the long run. I too can learn so much from my protestant friends and from even non-CHristians. Just look at the way many Protestants pray so from the heart and in informal groups…they bring Jesus into their homes and friendships etc. Once they feel that you respect them (instead of treating them as if they had the lurgy! =the radical response) they will open themselves to you and to the Church. Maybe not joining it, but hey atleast they won’t aggresively reject it: which will maybe in the end be a clincher for salvation.
I am positive about the future of man. The search contiues and will always do so. Jesus was attractive when he walked the Earth. Sinners and worldly people to him and had a good time with him…he managed to commune and sow love, he wasn’t unable to speak at the level of his contempories. That’s better than being bitter and twisted and shut off from all that is trully human in the world. We may get the feel good factor from that for a while, but does our society benefit from it, do our friends and family want to be like us and can we look up to our religious today: as sorted people with an attractive life plan? What say U?
 
Yes! Holiness is wholeness!
God has obviously been gently and wisely leading you!

Regarding holiness
Dear Jesus, please reveal brilliantly to all, that You do not require that individuals need to be regarded as Saints, in order to be Your saints.

Assure them that holiness is Your action, not ours! Let them read the gospels and reflect on what they read, discovering that You were truly human, that you wept, felt pain, joy, and exasperation, “How long do I have to put up with this faithless generation!”) [Mark 9:19]

You became angry [in the Temple]. You were sometimes disappointed, sometimes weary. You felt the need to be alone, and the desire to escape a dreadful ordeal (“let this cup pass from me”). [Luke 22:42] Then in the depths of suffering, You found faith difficult, (“My God, why have You abandoned me?”) [Psalm 22:1]

Why did not the evangelists record Your laughter! How sober of them! However, they do record as Your lyrical delight over little children, (“Blessed are You, Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth! You have revealed to little ones, the mysteries of Your Kingdom!” [Matthew 11:25]

Jesus, ask Your people to observe that You lived the ordinary life for about thirty years. If You had not wanted to make such an issue about being vulnerably human, You could have come as a glorious, fully developed human Personage. Jesus, truly human, truly God, help us to become fully human, fully whole.
 
Henri_Searcher said:
It meant never missing a chance to tell Protestants where the True Church was. Never failing to tell non-Christian youngsters that were co-habiting to mend their ways
Click to expand...
No, that kind of thing isn’t holy. Your job was to help people find God. Saying things like that drives people away from God, and that was on your conscience. I’m glad you found another path!
 
The Gospel way
Jesus and Mary, you lived with Joseph in holy ordinariness, loving others as yourselves and God above all. You lived in prayer and penance, in wondering and in faith, in obedience and chastity. You lived in daily labour offered to God in simplicity and love. Please guide me along this gospel path, so that the God delights in my life and finds it a useful tool to bring closer the coming of the kingdom.

I thank God for the ordinary yet precious gifts I have received…of Creation and redemption…of persons whom I cherish…of my life, personality and individual identity…of my soul, mind, and body…of the little treasures God has given me for His delight and for others’ benefit. I desire to love God above all and others with God’s love.

I confess my sinfulness, accepting forgiveness and grace, knowing that God is my strength and virtue. I can only serve in faith and faithfulness as you did, knowing that God loves me in my lowliness.

Jesus and Mary, please unite me with you in loving, prayerful service. Through God’s merciful love and your merits, I offer each moment of my life in its ordinariness. Please make me worthy of your kinship, so that I honour God while serving others, even if the effects are hidden from me. For in my trust and self-surrender, God may flood grace in living gospel through me for the sake of the kingdom.

I praise and thank God, who stoops with tender, loving humility to touch, transform, and share His life, His Son, His Spirit of love and truth, with anyone as ordinary as I am!
 
I think only certain saintly people can cut themselves off from the world like this, most of us can not do it well. We end up doing it for the wrong reasons: bitterness, anger, and maybe even a false sense of superiority.

I am guilty of this often and I am struggling with this constantly.

In order to be able to correct other people’s wrongs, especially in these times, we have to be able to do it without being smug or condescending. We need to learn how to do it with humility. I know this is very hard and it is the reason why I don’t try to correct people often, I am afraid I will do more harm than good.

Maybe instead of confrontation you can just offer your humble opinion, offer a different viewpoint, and most important of all living your life as an good humble example. The moment you start to act that you are better than other people (or if it just seems that way to others) is when you fall down hard and also turn off the possibility of influencing people towards opening their hearts to God.
 
“I have in mind for you…plans for peace, not disaster, reserving a future full of hope for you. Then when you will call to me, and come to plead with me, I will listen to you. When you seek me you shall find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” [Jeremiah 29:11-14]

“I have chosen you, not rejected you, do not be afraid for I am with you; stop being anxious and watchful for I am your God. I give you strength, I bring you help, and I uphold you with my victorious right hand.” [Isaiah 41:9-10]

“You are God’s beloved called to be saints.” [Romans 1:7] Therefore our God: “Open to me the gates of holiness, I will enter and give thanks. This is the Lord’s own gate where the just may enter. I will thank You, for You have answered and You are my Saviour.” [Psalm 118:19-21] “It is God’s will that you grow in holiness.” [1Thessalonians 4:3]

Jesus, in Your desire for our personal and communal holiness in living the gospel, You taught us, “Your light must shine in the sight of others, so that, seeing your good works, they may give the praise to your Father in heaven.” [Matthew 5:16] You desire us not to obscure Your light in us. Therefore, to allow Your light to shine out from one’s life does not represent a display of pride. The light of Your love most clearly manifests in humble hearts that joyfully acknowledge that all goodness—all loving kindness—comes from You. “If anyone wants to boast, let him boast about the Lord.” [Jeremiah 9:22]

We may feel doubtful and discouraged regarding our call to be saints, knowing how far from the reality we seem to others and to ourselves, yet most of us have little experience of how God perceives us. Therefore Jesus, give us trust to respond fully to the Spirit that shines through us before others. You encourage us to allow this radiant presence of the Spirit, saying, “If anyone declares himself for me in the presence of individuals, I will declare myself for him in the presence of my Father in heaven.” [Matthew 10:32]

In accepting Your call to wholeness, we choose to love You above all and other persons as ourselves. This call requires us to take up our personal cross and follow You in love, prayer, and service of others. Therefore, it is not arrogant to seek sanctity, for to be truly holy means to be genuinely human. What is truly human is our creation in God’s image. Sin and indifference injures the fullness of our humanity.

Saint Therese of Lisieux encourages us in our attempts towards holiness in our vocation to love and serve. Of her own response to the call, she wrote, “This desire could certainly appear daring if one were to consider how weak and imperfect I was, and how after seven years in the religious life, I am still weak and imperfect. I always feel, however, the same bold confidence of becoming a great saint because I do not count on my own merits since I have none, but I trust in God who is Virtue and Holiness. God alone, content with my weak efforts, will raise me to Himself and make me a saint, clothing me in His infinite merits. I didn’t think then that one had to suffer very much to reach sanctity, but God was not long in showing me this was so and in sending me the trials I have already mentioned.” Therese remarked that such holiness may “not be evident to the eyes of mortals.”

We draw hope from this saint of ‘the consecrated ordinary’, whom Pope John Paul 2 declared a Doctor of the Church on October 19, 1997. Many Sisters in her Carmelite community were unaware of the holiness of her ‘ordinary’ deeds of kindness, and doubted that anything worthwhile could appear in her obituary circular. I implore God for ‘everyday’ love and trust such as Therese maintained before temptations of doubt and suffering. Like her, in ordinariness made holy by union with Jesus our God who lived ‘the ordinary life’, we must become shining lights in an era when disbelief, humanism and self-absorption prevail.

We ask God to give us dynamic confidence that holiness is not reserved for a favoured few. As Saint Paul taught, “each soul is God’s favourite” and God desires fulfilment of each person’s call to love God above all and others as self. Every person has a unique vocation and purpose, intended to enrich each other person’s soul for all eternity.
 
Trishie, I really like your hopeful post. I guess that I will just have to hope and pray for God to lift me up to become a saint, as St. Therese wrote, because it is certainly something I can not do on my own.
 
This reminds me of a story about a saint(I think it was St Francis)
Anyway the St and his companions were traveling the countryside preaching the Gospel.They stopped by this one little town and began playing games with the children,they got something to eat and strolled around the city exchanging greetings,…then the saint said it was time to leave.“But wait”,protested one of the companions,“you said we were coming here to preach the Word of God” The saint relied…“We just did”
 
Reading about the Saints, in my experience, has been a double edge sword.

While the stories are very inspiring and joyful to read, I find myself depressed afterwards realizing how far I am, an almost impossible distance, from being anywhere near them.

I really like St Therese a lot because of her little way, seems more attainable in theory, but in practice it’s very very hard.
 
It seems to me that all of our efforts are a struggle, even impossible, if they’re coming from ourselves and not from God. When the inspiration comes from God and not from us, even ascetical practices become less hard, almost natural.

I made some big mistakes when I went through my “coming back to Catholicism” conversion. I was so zealous I drove everyone nuts. I finally learned a lesson permanently when I corrected a friend and it backfired. A very close friend had been raised a Catholic but for years had attended Methodist church to satisfy her husband. Occasionally she went to Mass with me and she loved being back. She always went to Communion. One day I pointed out that she hadn’t been an active Catholic for years, hadn’t been to confession in 20 years and shouldn’t be receiving Communion.
She became furious, it damaged our friendship and she hasn’t been back in a Catholic church since. God might have been working with her; I have no idea. I just know that instead of correcting her, I should have exhibited more of the compassion of Jesus, and maybe talked to a priest about it or something before shooting off my mouth.
 
Henri_Searcher said:
When I first became a commited and converted Catholic (about ten years ago) I was of the opinion that the more radical one was the more holy you’d be. By radical I mean: radical break from worldliness in any sense and doing lots of external penances: fasting and all that. …]

Radical meant being in peoples’ faces about the faith.
Click to expand...
From the Saints:
"If you wish to labor with fruit in the conversion of souls, you must pour the balsam of sweetness upon the wine of your zeal, that it may not be too fiery, but mild, soothing, patient, and full of compassion. For the human soul is so constituted that by rigor it becomes harder, but mildness completely softens it. Besides, we ought to remember that Jesus Christ came to bless good intentions, and if we leave them to His control, little by little He will make them fruitful". -St Francis de Sales
Click to expand...
"At times a single word is sufficient to cool a person who is burning with anger; and, on the other hand, a single word may be capable of desolating a soul, and infusing into it a bitterness which may be most hurtful." - St. Vincent de Paul
Click to expand...
SFD
 
Beautiful thread…beautiful posts

Now that’s what I call Catholism…lovely and loving:D
 
Oh that quote by St. Vincent de Paul is so beautiful and so true. And, when you think about it, it really takes unnecessary responsibility off us and puts it on the One Who actually makes the miracles. We can do so much more by example and kindness than we can by being the Catholic Police.
 
FickleFreckled said:
I made some big mistakes when I went through my “coming back to Catholicism” conversion. I was so zealous I drove everyone nuts. I finally learned a lesson permanently when I corrected a friend and it backfired. A very close friend had been raised a Catholic but for years had attended Methodist church to satisfy her husband. Occasionally she went to Mass with me and she loved being back. She always went to Communion. One day I pointed out that she hadn’t been an active Catholic for years, hadn’t been to confession in 20 years and shouldn’t be receiving Communion.
She became furious, it damaged our friendship and she hasn’t been back in a Catholic church since. God might have been working with her; I have no idea. I just know that instead of correcting her, I should have exhibited more of the compassion of Jesus, and maybe talked to a priest about it or something before shooting off my mouth.
Click to expand...
A similar situation happened to me recently. A close friend of mine who left the Church about 20 years ago and I were on a week long fishing trip. When I told him I was going to Mass on Sunday he said he would come along. He did. He went up for communion. He was a Catholic for 30 plus years before he left and so I thought he sure knew about being in the state of grace and all. Anything I might say was only going to drive him further from the Church. I have invited him back more than once, but so far no luck. His wife is an Evangelical Christian, but when they married it was in the Catholic Church and quite valid and all.

I think that sometimes we feel we must protect Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament from defilement. I am sure in situations like the one you describe He is perfectly capable of taking care of himself. If someone were to be stamping on the host or driving nails through it as some dummy atheist Ph.D. in Minnesota did, it becomes a totally different matter. When someone does what your friend was doing, she would soon enough, in coming back into the Faith, realize that what she was doing was not appropriate and self correct. Of course, its not a light matter, but a little discernment at such times goes a long ways. Continue to pray for your friend and reach out to her to heal that friendship.🙂
 
I was of the opinion that the more radical one was the more holy you’d be.
Click to expand...
This is such a powerful and accurate observation. I think there are many here (including myself) who converted or reverted in such profound ways that we spun around on sheer adrenalin, excitement, and emotion, not paying much attention to who we slammed into on our journey. Fortunately, many folks that I alienated early on have returned for a second look.

When I reflect back on the early days (or years!) I realize the pridefulness involved in many of my extreme behaviors. I also realize that withdrawing from the world is counter productive. Rather than viewing others in terms of the quality of their faith, or lack thereof, I have come to view them now as children of God, no matter where they are in their journey. Even those who profess no belief can still be conduits through which God works and teaches me daily.

I’ve also put down my big stick of righteousness and refrained from bludgeoning everyone who isn’t measuring up to MY standards of Catholic life. God had a clever and ingenious way of correcting me when I was a hedonistic pagan, and He didn’t require any human assistance to do it. I suspect that if I just remain present with people and live my life with quiet Christian simplicity, I will do more to help the “cause” than all my previous efforts (which, btw, didn’t pan out that well!).
 
To all on this thread! Thanks for all the hope filled messages, and from all around the world. Truly holiness is wholeness and trully we are most whole and holy being what we were made to be: images of God. However God is One and Three: Holy Trinity. Therefore God is essentially relational: “God”, said JP2 “is in his deepest reality a family!” Relations are thus so fundamental to us being in God’s image. Communion, community, brotherhood and belonging is at the core of being a Christian.
Cardinal H. de Lubac shows in his book “Catholicism” that since the middle ages we have focused too much our idea of sanctity and holiness upon renunciation and solitary piety. The man who goes to adoration: an hour in Church on his knees, “hears” mass! then out the door without saying boo to a goose, never mind to a fellow Christian. The idea of “my salvation”, “my sanctity” and my religion! How is your community life in your parish?
God calls us as a family: right back in the Old Testament we have the people of God: they put their hope in the salvation of Israel-before themselves. It wasn’t perfect this national exclusivism, but at least it staved off individualism, before the universality of the Christian revelation had come.
We have focused on a monolithic idea of God: God as one and divinely transcendent=the Lord. THis is good but partial: God is three persons in eternal loving communion. Do we mirror God if we neglect this important idea of relational fellowship? No, and this is what I feel many ‘radicals’ are missing out on. They are full of ideas of personal sanctity and cleanliness (like the pharisees) yet they miss the value of real inter-personal relations with others and they neglect social skills and even charity towards others. There will be no anti-social saints in heaven, of course! Ciao and God Bless you all.
 
I think that goes way too far, there are plenty of Saints who were monastic or hermits that did not focus on social interaction. In fact your personal sanctity and relationship with God is much more important than making friends with people.

Focusing on personal holiness is in fact required of us while chatting it up with people at Church is not. Too much focus on community is probably not good because it could interfere with your personal sanctity.

I go to adoration every week but am not active in any other parish groups and I feel perfectly fine about it. First, what could be more important than spending time with Jesus? If I were on the donut committee, would that lead me to a better relationship with Christ than adoration?

When I first came to my parish I tried to get involved in various groups but God has clearly shown me that is not what he wanted for me. I am not going to argue with him, I tried and it was not a good experience.

.
 
I think this is a good topic.

We are all called to holiness and to pursue the sainthood. This is the pursuit of perfection, which ultimately is union with Christ.

Is Sainthood for "All Those Other People?"
The moment we think that sainthood is for “all those other people”, we in essence, absolve ourselves from the pursuit. The Angel of Darkness has many tricks up his sleeve and one of them is to convince people that there is no way they can reach perfection so they may as well remain as they are in mediocrity.

Another trick of Satan though, is to try to get us to overwhelm ourselves with too much, too fast.

Holiness is a Journey, Rooted in Prayer and Sacraments
Hence, the pursuit of holiness for the vast majority of us is one of incremental change, with the use of the Sacraments. Frequent use of Confession and worthy reception of Holy Communion are fundamental.

In your Face Apologetics - Not Unusual in the Beginning…
It is not the least bit unusual for someone who suddenly takes their faith seriously to dive in head first with “in your face” kind of apologetics. It is well intentioned, but misguided. Been there; done that. It is good when one begins to question their behaviors in this regard as it shows spiritual growth is taking place. How we respond is important though.

What is lacking in this case, is not the zeal for the faith or necessarily the knowledge, but charity. This is why Our Lord said that without love, we are nothing more than clanging gongs. You can go to Mass every day, pray all the mysteries of the Rosary every day, you can devote your entire life to feeding the hungry, defending life for the unborn, but if you lack charity - which is love, you are going nowhere fast.

When we dialogue with our brothers and sisters, whether they are protestant, atheist, buddhist, or dissident Catholic, we should first love them in Christ and be a witness through our behaviors.

Forceful Teaching?
We have to also keep in mind that Our Lord did not exemplify forceful teaching. Rather, he put words out there and did not run after people to get them to accept those words. Consider that not even Mary was forced to accept Jesus into her womb. The angel asked for her consent first, and she gave her fiat. In the same way, we cannot expect our brethren to accept what we offer in explanations and teachings.

What is most important here is to be an example. We cannot present the faith to others in a way that they will want to receive it if we do not show charity and respect.

Pursuit of Holiness through Virtue-Building
It takes the highest degrees of virtue to be able to communicate the faith in a manner that will be received well. That is, without condescension, and with great love, preceded by prayer, fasting, and adoration.

Role of Miraculous Medal
Therefore, pursue the sainthood, but do it a little at a time and pray for God’s graces. It is an awesome time to ask Mary to grant you the virtues you are lacking through the Miraculous Medal.

*Streaming from rings Mary’s fingers as she held the globe were many rays of light. Mary explained that the rays symbolize the graces she obtains for those who ask for them. However, some of the gems on the rings were dark, and Mary explained that the rays and graces were available but did not come because no one had asked for them. *

Ask Mary to assist you with seeing what virtues are lacking and find a confessor who advocates using the Sacrament to build virtue (in Metro Detroit come to Assumption Grotto where priests regularly advocate this). If in confession a priest tries to discourage confession of venial sins and imperfections, find a new confessor!
 
Jesus was radical. He was different. Jesus is truth, and the truth is radically different from what the world has to offer. So as his followers we’re called to be radically different, too.

But Jesus wasn’t a fanatic. He wasn’t unreasoning. Jesus is the embodiment of love. So, as His followers, if we have truth, we must also have love.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top