Does being more radical make you more holy?

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

It is true," says St. Gregory, “that some saints have been guided directly by God”; but, he continues, “such examples are rather to be admired than imitated, for, thinking ourselves above the guidance of holy men, we might easily be led into error.” Virtue is found in the golden mean; as idleness in the spiritual life is a fault, so too is intemperate zeal. It is the duty of the spiritual director to war against the former and to moderate the latter.

 

[Henri_Searcher]

I think that goes way too far, there are plenty of Saints who were monastic or hermits that did not focus on social interaction. In fact your personal sanctity and relationship with God is much more important than making friends with people.
I visit monasteries all the time, and even spent a year of my life as one (and then 5 more in a seminary)! Wonderful way. It is a radical path: for the few to dedicate oneself to the fundamental relation with God, but also to a total donation to the other members of the congregation and also to the Church and thus to the entire world. Very often in looking for God in virginal consecration and total dedication it is not God that we directly find. That was my experience. He leads us by obscurity…but he leads us and you can be sure of this in community. On the path to holiness we discover all our personal wholes and how we need each other and how others need us. I am not advocating that everyone give up adoration and settle with the local donut commity! If God is calling someone to more solitude and prayer almost to the point of doing nothing else: who am I to argue. But it may well be for a brief period: to recieve in order to later give. If so only by doing so will we get beyond the brick wall of our own contemplative limitations and move on in humble mutual dependency and fellowship. St Augustine says:
“Those who believe that it could occur to someone, while in this mortal life, to attain to the radiant brightness of the light of immutable truth and to adhere to it steadily and unswervingly with the mind totally detached from the habits of this life-these people have not understood the nature of what they seek, nor the nature of those who seek.” De Consensu Evang. IV 10,20
As for the being a helper at the Church’s donut committee: why is it that we find this so unsatisfying? Maybe it is because we are not living our search for holiness together in the parishes. We are still infected by the spirit of the age: autonomous self-sufficency individualism and shallow friendships. If people can’t find the antidote in the fraternity of your local Catholic Church they will seek it elsewhere. And where else will they find it? In drug gangs, in seedy bars and brothels. In heaven, dear friends our relationships will not be dissatisfying. Neither should they be now, we need to see the importance of them and make the effort. And me first of all! God Bless.

 

[Michael_Neal]

I was not putting down involvement in various parish groups I was just saying it is not my calling. This may change but I don’t think it will.

Its not that I don’t want to make more friends and be involved in the community its that God is leading me elsewhere for whatever reason.

I don’t think I am special or anything in fact it may be that I am not good enough in God’s eyes to serve him that way, who knows, I wouldn’t be surprised by that. It also could be a trial that I am being put through, isolation.

God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Michael_Neal]

Regardless I don’t see how you could see involvement in parish community groups as more important than adoration. Both are good and important but Jesus is more important

 

[JRKH]

When I first became a commited and converted Catholic (about ten years ago) I was of the opinion that the more radical one was the more holy you’d be. By radical I mean: radical break from worldliness in any sense and doing lots of external penances: fasting and all that. I looked up to the religious orders that were the most radical: those that really saught to wear down the “old Adam” by sheer will power and exertion. These guys I thought were the Marines of the Spiritual life. Look at the effort, look at the blood, sweat and tears (almost!)
Radical meant being in peoples’ faces about the faith. It meant never missing a chance to tell Protestants where the True Church was. Never failing to tell non-Christian youngsters that were co-habiting to mend their ways…always being up tight in their presence and worrying about their eternal salvation.
However recently I can see that too much of all the wonderful Catholic methods for corresponding to grace can be harmful. They can make us imbalanced…too much living in the sacristy of life! I now see that holiness is Wholeness and thus requires of us great humanity and the enhancement of our human skills too. How can there be genuine charity without it? I myself used to go to my old protestant friends armed with dogmatic explanations about why the Truth was in the One Church. You must come back to us. Recently I have seen that dialogue and real friendship mean so much more…they are so much more effective in the long run. I too can learn so much from my protestant friends and from even non-CHristians. Just look at the way many Protestants pray so from the heart and in informal groups…they bring Jesus into their homes and friendships etc. Once they feel that you respect them (instead of treating them as if they had the lurgy! =the radical response) they will open themselves to you and to the Church. Maybe not joining it, but hey atleast they won’t aggresively reject it: which will maybe in the end be a clincher for salvation.
I am positive about the future of man. The search contiues and will always do so. Jesus was attractive when he walked the Earth. Sinners and worldly people to him and had a good time with him…he managed to commune and sow love, he wasn’t unable to speak at the level of his contempories. That’s better than being bitter and twisted and shut off from all that is trully human in the world. We may get the feel good factor from that for a while, but does our society benefit from it, do our friends and family want to be like us and can we look up to our religious today: as sorted people with an attractive life plan? What say U?

First of all allow me to address the question asked in your Title:

Does being more radical make you more holy?

I would answer this as, “No - Being more Holy makes you more radical.”

By this I mean that, the more truly holy one becomes, the more radical one appears to society at large. The more submissive and embracing of God’s will for us, the more “Changed” we appear to our friends and aquantances. This is the true radicalism.

Some of the paths you mention can be means to that end for some people, but it must be stresed that these methods must be very limited in their use, or the difficulties you mention will become an issue. It appears by the Bolded section above that you have reached this same conclusion and have made the adjustments to allow you to keep moving forward.

May God continue to guide you.

Peace
James

 

[blessedtoo]

Regardless I don’t see how you could see involvement in parish community groups as more important than adoration. Both are good and important but Jesus is more important

Michael,
You seem to be implying that Jesus is somehow “less than” present or obvious in our relationships than He is in adoration. Or that somehow doing one is “better” than the other. Or even that they are mutually exclusive.

I would argue that the OP has some excellent insights and observations about “hoarding” one’s relationship with Christ. I don’t think he/she is debating the meritorious nature of adoration or frequent Mass. However, if we don’t take Christ into the streets and into the relationships we encounter in the world, we are failing in a big part of our obligation as His followers. We can look to Christ Himself for the example - He did not spend all His days in solitary prayer with the Father. He spent His time with others, and illustrated a perfect balance of associating with both believers and non-believers. He went to temple and to weddings. He adhered to traditional worship practices and engaged in fellowship outside the constraints of temple rituals.

God has called saints to devote their lives to prayer and contemplation. However, with the exception of hermits, most have had to “get along” in some sort of community with others. In fact, it can be argued that the type of monastic communities represented in such worthwhile programs as “The Monastery” are significantly more challenging than what those of us on the “outside” must face. After all, we don’t have to live 24/7 with those we serve donuts to on Sunday afternoons after Mass!

 

[kentuckyliz]

Love is the greatest charism. It is the only charism that is eternal.

God is love. Read 1 Cor 13 and 1 John.

I’m trying to challenge myself to live more simply and be more generous towards neighbor in thought, word, and deed, and with acts of sharing with those in need. A la Mt 25.

Only out of that holy goal (God’s love growing this way in me) does it make sense to start denying my self-indulgence. There’s a reason for it.

When the bread dough rises, the yeast doesn’t scream announcing itself. Be leaven. Silent.

When the sun rises, there’s no loud noise to draw attention to the fact of the sun rising. Be light. Silent.

When salt seasons, it doesn’t draw attention to itself but brings out the best flavors of whatever it’s with–savory or sweet. It doesn’t scream its presence like a hot chili pepper. Be salt. Silent.

May the Holy Spirit be poured into our hearts, so that our faith, love, and joy are irrestible to those who see us in our daily lives.

Let’s outdo each other in loving service of neighbor, and in delight and joy. Let’s be Mother Teresa and St. Phillip Neri all rolled into one.

 

[Michael_Neal]

I am certainly not hoarding my relationship with Christ. I have a wife, son, family, friends, and interact with people at work and wherever I may happen to be.

I am not living as a hermit, however if that is where God was calling me I would.

God is simply not calling me to be active in any parish social group. Maybe that will change tomorrow or 2 years from now or maybe never.

I never suggested adoration and parish involvement were mutually exclusive I am only speaking for myself on this. Everyone is different and is being called in different ways. But there are many many people who are called to contemplation and prayer as opposed to working with social groups. This has always been one of the paths that the Church and many Saints have recognized.

Of course Christ is present in our relationships but he is present in the flesh during adoration so yes I do believe that Jesus is more present in adoration and the Eucharist than at other times.

I never said I was better than anyone else, in fact I suggested that it is possible that I may be in more need of adoration than others. Maybe he thinks being active in parish groups would be detrimental to me somehow. There are plenty of potential pitfalls when dealing with group social interactions. Maybe I am not worthy of that type of work. Maybe my prayer and contemplation are more important to God than doing physical work for him. There are many possible answers.

I just don’t know why God is leading me this way, but he is. Should I disregard it?

 

[blessedtoo]

Sorry, Michael. I was only going by your comment here:

It also could be a trial that I am being put through, isolation.

I did not mean to insinuate that you were bereft of friends and family. I just wanted to articulate my belief that “radical” piety should not cause us to isolate ourselves from others. As another poster stated, Jesus was the original radical and He certainly did not isolate Himself.

I’ve seen it (and experienced it) on these forums time and again. People who have recently come into or come back to the Church and feel they must cut themselves off from all the “things” of this world (often, including people from their past) and dedicate themselves to a grueling schedule of Church activity and private devotions. Often, after a period of time, these folks will pop up on threads and speak of the intense loneliness they feel - how they have no connection to others. I certainly went through that as well, and spent even more time at Church in an attempt to quell that loneliness. Perhaps it’s a rite of passage that we all go through - I don’t know. Personally, I could not sustain that level of isolation without sinking into depression (another common thread theme here on CAF).

With all that said, I know I am not in charge of anyone else’s faith journey. We need all kinds of folks in the Church - the sociable, the shy, the extrovert, the introvert, the givers and the takers. I guess the goal is discerning what role God wants us to fill.

 

[mammallama]

With all that said, I know I am not in charge of anyone else’s faith journey. We need all kinds of folks in the Church - the sociable, the shy, the extrovert, the introvert, the givers and the takers. I guess the goal is discerning what role God wants us to fill.

Amen to that.We are called to different spiritualities.I am a loner who lives out in the sticks,always have and probably always will.The big city scares me,crowds make me uncomfortable.I have no idea how to hail a taxi or ride the subway…'nuf said…The completive life would be right up my alley.Standing on the street corner preaching …not so much.My lifestyle would probably seem extreme and/or radical to some as would my religious ways.

 

[Michael_Neal]

Sorry, Michael. I was only going by your comment here:

I did not mean to insinuate that you were bereft of friends and family. I just wanted to articulate my belief that “radical” piety should not cause us to isolate ourselves from others. As another poster stated, Jesus was the original radical and He certainly did not isolate Himself.

I’ve seen it (and experienced it) on these forums time and again. People who have recently come into or come back to the Church and feel they must cut themselves off from all the “things” of this world (often, including people from their past) and dedicate themselves to a grueling schedule of Church activity and private devotions. Often, after a period of time, these folks will pop up on threads and speak of the intense loneliness they feel - how they have no connection to others. I certainly went through that as well, and spent even more time at Church in an attempt to quell that loneliness. Perhaps it’s a rite of passage that we all go through - I don’t know. Personally, I could not sustain that level of isolation without sinking into depression (another common thread theme here on CAF).

With all that said, I know I am not in charge of anyone else’s faith journey. We need all kinds of folks in the Church - the sociable, the shy, the extrovert, the introvert, the givers and the takers. I guess the goal is discerning what role God wants us to fill.

Yes, I guess I was not very clear about that. What I meant regarding isolation was not being able to be part of a parish or Catholic based group. I am pretty much one of the very few people in my family and group of friends that is seriously religious so as far as my faith goes I am somewhat alone in that journey.

I generally agree with you that to try and cut yourself off from the world and abandon friends is not generally a good idea, unless those friends somehow lead you to sin. Most of my friends are not religious at all but I don’t find that a reason not to spend time with them.

I don’t try to preach to people but simply hope that if people see me taking my faith seriously it may open some doors for them in their minds and hearts.

 

[SFD]

Father Frederick Faber, Spiritual Conferences, “On Taking Scandal”:

To give scandal is a great fault, but to take scandal is a greater fault. It implies a greater amount of wrongness in ourselves, and it does a greater amount of mischief to others.

Nothing gives scandal sooner than a quickness to take scandal. This is worth our consideration. For I find great numbers of moderately good people who think it fine to take scandal. They regard it as a sort of evidence of their own goodness, and of their delicacy of conscience; while in reality it is only a proof either of their inordinate conceit or of their extreme stupidity. They are unfortunate when this latter is the case; for then no one but inculpable nature is to blame. If, as some have said, a stupid man cannot be a Saint, at least his stupidity can never make him into a sinner. Moreover, the persons in question seem frequently to feel and act as if their profession of piety involved some kind of official appointment to take scandal. It is their business to take scandal. It is their way of bearing testimony to God. It would show a blamable inertness in the spiritual life if they did not take scandal. They think they suffer very much while they are taking scandal; whereas in truth they enjoy it amazingly. It is a pleasurable excitement, which delightfully varies the monotony of devotion. They do not in reality fall over their neighbour’s fault, nor does it in itself hinder them in the way of holiness, nor do they love God less because of it, ---- all which ought to be implied in taking scandal. But they trip themselves up on purpose, and take care that it shall be opposite some fault of their neighbour’s, in order that they may call attention to the difference between him and themselves.

There are certainly many legitimate causes for taking scandal, but none more legitimate than the almost boastful facility of taking scandal which characterizes many so-called religious people. The fact is that an immense proportion of us are Pharisees. For one pious man who makes piety attractive, there are nine who make it repulsive. Or, in other words, only one out of ten among reputed spiritual persons is really spiritual. He who during a long life has taken the most scandal has done the most injury to God’s glory, and has been himself a real and substantial stumbling-block in the way of many. He has been an endless fountain of odious disedification to the little ones of Christ. If such a one reads this, he will take scandal at me. Everything that he dislikes, every thing which deviates from his own narrow view of things, is to him a scandal. It is the Pharisaic way of expressing a difference.

 

[Michael_Neal]

I hope you are not trying to accuse me of taking scandal, that certainly does not reflect my experience or attitude at all. God does lead us all in different directions, I never said the direction he was leading me was better than the direction he was leading you or that I was better than anybody else. And I certainly fall for the very same sins as my neighbors.

I hate being tripped up and it was only when I accepted what God was telling me that I found any peace in my life. The whole journey of trying to find some social group to be involoved in actually almost ruined my faith it caused so much distress in my life. If I really wanted to cause scandal to myself I would continue down that road and not listen to what God was telling me.

I read something from the Dominicans a while back on finding our vocation, they said that if a certain vocational path caused one great distress that is a good sign it is not the right vocation. I have finally been following this advice and it has lead me to much contentment and peace.

If this is somehow interpreted as taking scandal then at least it is better than where I was before.

 

[SFD]

I hope you are not trying to accuse me of taking scandal, that certainly does not reflect my experience or attitude at all. God does lead us all in different directions, I never said the direction he was leading me was better than the direction he was leading you or that I was better than anybody else. And I certainly fall for the very same sins as my neighbors.

I hate being tripped up and it was only when I accepted what God was telling me that I found any peace in my life. The whole journey of trying to find some social group to be involoved in actually almost ruined my faith it caused so much distress in my life. If I really wanted to cause scandal to myself I would continue down that road and not listen to what God was telling me.

I read something from the Dominicans a while back on finding our vocation, they said that if a certain vocational path caused one great distress that is a good sign it is not the right vocation. I have finally been following this advice and it has lead me to much contentment and peace.

If this is somehow interpreted as taking scandal then at least it is better than where I was before.

Michael Neal:

The quote was for everyone…myself included. It was not directed at you as it was not a specific reply to your post…although I can see why you might have thought it was.

SFD

 

[Michael_Neal]

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding.

The whole bit on taking scandal is a bit confusing, I am sure I have been guilty of it at times. It is hard to reconcile this with the notion that we should see suffering as redemptive and be ready to embrace the crosses in our life.

But I guess if we deliberately cause ourself suffering then it might be self absorption rather than sacrifice.

However to make it more complicated what about the saints who asked for crosses from God, and who treated themselves harshly and caused themselves to suffer, was that conceit or holiness?

 

[SFD]

Fr. Faber:

They think they suffer very much while they are taking scandal; whereas in truth they enjoy it amazingly. It is a pleasurable excitement, which delightfully varies the monotony of devotion. They do not in reality fall over their neighbour’s fault, nor does it in itself hinder them in the way of holiness, nor do they love God less because of it, ---- all which ought to be implied in taking scandal.

In other words, we should not take the many faults of our neighbor as scandalous…because true scandal causes us to fall, or hinder us in the way of holiness.

SFD

 

[SFD]

Fr. Faber:

In what does perfection consist? In a childlike, short-sighted charity; charity which believes all things; in a grand supernatural conviction that every one is better than ourselves; in estimating far too low the amount of evil in the world; in looking far too exclusively on what is good; in the ingenuity of kind constructions; in an inattention, hardly intelligible, to the faults of others; in a graceful perversity of incredulousness about scandals, which sometimes in the Saints runs close upon being a scandal of itself. This is perfection; this is the temper and genius of Saints and saint-Iike men. It is a life of desire, oblivious of earthly things. It is a radiant, energetic faith that man’s slowness and coldness will not interfere with the success of God’s glory. Yet all the while it is instinctively fighting, by prayer and reparation, against evils, which it will not allow itself consciously to believe. No shadow of moroseness ever falls over the bright mind of a Saint. It is not possible that it should do so.

Finally, perfection has the gift of entering into the universal Spirit of God, Who is worshipped in so many different ways, and is content. Now, is not all this just the very opposite of the temper and spirit of a man who is apt to take scandal? The difference is so plain that it is needless to comment on it. He is happy who on his dying bed can say, “No one has ever given me scandal in my life!” He has either not seen his neighbour’s faults, or, when he saw them, the sight had to reach him through so much sunshine of his own that they did not strike him so much as faults to blame, but rather as reasons for a deeper and a tenderer love.

 

[blessedtoo]

However to make it more complicated what about the saints who asked for crosses from God, and who treated themselves harshly and caused themselves to suffer, was that conceit or holiness?

This is why I avoid reading about the saints. While I gain inspiration from the stories of people like Blessed Mother Theresa, Thomas Moore, and JPII, I can’t read stories that focus on self-punishment, extreme denial, and mortification. I understand that the lives of the saints must be taken in context, but I also believe that for many Catholics such stories can cause great anxiety. I have enough of that!

But this line from the quote SFD posted really speaks to that issue:

For one pious man who makes piety attractive, there are nine who make it repulsive.

I am content to assume that the saints were unique in their calling from God and that some type of special grace was present that does not necessarily exist for everyone. Hence, the somewhat unpleasant and off-putting righteousness that can be displayed by some in their own personal quest for sainthood.

I figured God called saints. I never thought we could tell God we should be or could be saints.

 

[Henri_Searcher]

---

This is why I avoid reading about the saints. While I gain inspiration from the stories of people like Blessed Mother Theresa, Thomas Moore, and JPII, I can’t read stories that focus on self-punishment, extreme denial, and mortification. I understand that the lives of the saints must be taken in context, but I also believe that for many Catholics such stories can cause great anxiety. I have enough of that!
I am content to assume that the saints were unique in their calling from God and that some type of special grace was present that does not necessarily exist for everyone.

---

Let me just say that I once knew one of these new (ie. post Vatican II) “orders” and their ethos seemed to be “if the Saints have done it so can we!” Thus there was a regime of poor and inadequate diet, and all kinds of penances…The focus was all on DOING! How many fasts, how much prayer, how much disciplines! Mechanical sanctity. Chastity was to be gained by “crucifying” the eyes and punishing the senses. Eyes on the deck-when in towns etc. Did it work? I reckon not-and if so only partially. What a difference to the well explained and balanced methods of Pope JPaul II and his “theology of the body.” We have to understand what it is to be human, our vocation of love, the nuptial value of our bodies-called to matrimony and donation to the Other (directly via Virginity, or indirectly in stable matrimony.) The Truth is so beautiful when we gain glimpses of it, there is very little need to beat the living daylights out of our selves in order to do so!!! I became a Catholic because of the great humanity that I saw in many young Catholics: they were normal youngsters who would go to mass, pray, take part in pro-life and other apostalates…but sure they had great fellowship too! THey would go down to the pub for a get together and the focus was not on getting obliterated on alcohol or on lustily hunting women! THis was new…it was authentic…it was livable. Christianity I believe does not space us out (atleast not long term!), it is divine and human: very and authentically human. I was into Buddhism (Vipassana meditation) for 3 years and into all New Age ideas too: that just spaced me out and isolated me from society. That’s what it does I feel if you take that path seriously, thats why I started to look elsewhere. Not so Christianity. Christ reveals man to man! As JP2 loved to remind us. Please note I am not a die hard liberal advocating an end to all the traditional ascetical practices of our Christian heritage. What I am saying though is be careful. THere are reactionaries out there who want to provide easy solutions like: “lets go back to the middle ages and do whatever was done then. Lets have the same mentality.” Such groups are a world away from where the Church is at today, from the Magisterial teaches. Tradition in order to be alive must be authentically assimilated and contemporised. It is not a stagnant pool, nor a musuem. THank God! I don’t want to water down the radical choice and nature of our faith, I just appeal to caution, common sense and that we all move at the pace of the Church of 2008. In many ways we have it harder today. As Fulton Sheen said: “it was easy to be a Christian back then!..” God Bless.**

 

[KingAlfred]

“These guys I thought were the Marines of the Spiritual life.”

Well, that’s where you went wrong, Henri. You should’ve asked me long ago. I would’ve set you straight. They’re the *AIRBORNE RANGERS *of the spiritual life.