Does being more radical make you more holy?

[Auntie_M]

This is unfortunate, as the lives of the Saints should be edifying to you.

Not all of the Saints lived such a life…but there is much to be learned from those who did. I suspect your modern tendencies cause you to be repulsed by intense suffering.

But these nine are not saints…that is Fr. Faber’s point!

We should all be Saints…as a matter of fact Our Lord tells us this very thing…be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. The way of perfection is for all. It is a commandment…not a suggestion. He call all to be Saints.

SFD

I also have read that passage, but I never understood it to say to be a saint you Have to maul yourself. I don’t think it is in the Bible where Jesus mauled himself, or the diciples did either. To “punish” by hurting yourself is rejecting Jesus’ plan of salvation.
Because He forgives us when we don’t even forgive ourselves. I really think that is the problem is when people don’t forgive themselves, they feel the need to “spank” like was the custom when a child misbehaved years ago.

As I’ve heard really old people say. “Take your medicine like a man”, when they were to be whipped/spanked/ “corrected”. I have personally known people who were “corrected” using a horsewhip!
This, I assure you, did NOT bring out love in them!, actually they turned very bitter! But to most of you here, are not old enough to know how it was 80 some odd years ago.

 

[Auntie_M]

Mortification is and always was encouraged by the church. It’s not optional, even if you don’t call it mortification. You cannot be a good Christian if you don’t voluntarely give up something, or make a sacrifice, and offer it to God. Of course, the most important is always charity, but mortification really helps you doing God’s will and paying attention to the other’s needs - mortification is dying to the ‘world’ in order to serve God and the souls. It can be of tremendous importance to fight frequent sin, like chastity problems.

Well, I’ve been a Christian a very long time…And I learned along time ago that NO one can judge who can and cannot be a “good” christian. We have only one judge.
Giving up something is not the same as mauling yourself, nor is sacrificing something. I know alot of saints of ole did this, but some did this back then that NEVER became saints. (Actually giving up on being a Christian altogether) OPPS, I guess they didn’t beat HARD enough.

I guess you still believe that “every woman should get a good beating now and then”? If you do it to yourself, you wouldn’t think twice about doing it to another.

 

[WH1988]

What a childish reply. I won’t even care to answer to people who employ such tone on their writting.

 

[Auntie_M]

What a childish reply. I won’t even care to answer to people who employ such tone on their writting.

Referring to MY previous post… You judged me as being childish?

Yes, I have been a “child” of God for a very long time. I know the difference of who CAN and cannot judge.

Your statement of Who can and cannot be a “good” Christian is just one of many reasons some will never even go to church in the first place.

 

[blessedtoo]

If it worked while praying ceaselessly did not I don’t see why it would not be advisable.

Your statement implies that you know best which approach “works” and the timeline for “success”.

I believe, based on many conversations with priests (among other things) that God gives us the grace to overcome specific sins on HIS schedule, not on ours, and that engaging in extreme behaviors somehow implies that we have control over God’s mercy and grace. If I am praying ceaselessly, following my Catholic faith in every way, and earnestly desiring to be free of sin, I will TRUST that God will release me of whatever compulsion I have to this sin when He is ready.

 

[WH1988]

Your statement implies that you know best which approach “works” and the timeline for “success”.

I believe, based on many conversations with priests (among other things) that God gives us the grace to overcome specific sins on HIS schedule, not on ours, and that engaging in extreme behaviors somehow implies that we have control over God’s mercy and grace. If I am praying ceaselessly, following my Catholic faith in every way, and earnestly desiring to be free of sin, I will TRUST that God will release me of whatever compulsion I have to this sin when He is ready.

Sorry, but I think you’re getting it all wrong. You don’t mortify in order to ‘play God’, and show you don’t need his grace. The mortification is the prayer of the senses. That’s indeed like saying: “oh, I don’t need to pray about my masturbation problem, God surely has His own time for this to be solved, so I’ll just wait”. We both know it’s not like that.

Without making a sacrifice of time for attending the Mass, without smiling when you don’t want to, without having patience, without being disciplined, without controlling your body, without suffering, you’ll never be a good Christian, but a slave of your desires. I don’t have any problem in saying it, because it’s simply true.

The most ‘graphic’ mortifications are not even particulary hard. The hard mortification are to work well without complaing, to wake up everyday at a predetermined hour, to be always gentle, to be always happy. The cilice, the discipline and the cold baths, or whatever, are just aparently big mortifications that are nothing but a small prayer and a small sacrifice compared to the usual mortifications. It’s indeed like vocal prayer: praying the rosary isn’t harder than a smile when you are completely fed up.

So, it’s not at all true that just praying with words will allow you to overcome your most frequent sins. Praying with your physical senses is so necessary as vocal prayer - you have to die to the world, you have to deny yourself and take the Cross. Indeed, the Lord can offer us plenty of graces through the great prayer of mortification.

But I’m certain you know this. You certainly do a lot of mortifications, perhaps much more than me, but you simply don’t use that expression. Well, the word is not relevant.

“Mortification is the drawbridge that enables us to enter the castle of prayer.”, St. Josémaria Escrivá (Furrow, 467)

 

[santodomingo]

Sorry, but I think you’re getting it all wrong. You don’t mortify in order to ‘play God’, and show you don’t need his grace. The mortification is the prayer of the senses. That’s indeed like saying: “oh, I don’t need to pray about my masturbation problem, God surely has His own time for this to be solved, so I’ll just wait”. We both know it’s not like that.

Without making a sacrifice of time for attending the Mass, without smiling when you don’t want to, without having patience, without being disciplined, without controlling your body, without suffering, you’ll never be a good Christian, but a slave of your desires. I don’t have any problem in saying it, because it’s simply true.

The most ‘graphic’ mortifications are not even particulary hard. The hard mortification are to work well without complaing, to wake up everyday at a predetermined hour, to be always gentle, to be always happy. The cilice, the discipline and the cold baths, or whatever, are just aparently big mortifications that are nothing but a small prayer and a small sacrifice compared to the usual mortifications. It’s indeed like vocal prayer: praying the rosary isn’t harder than a smile when you are completely fed up.

So, it’s not at all true that just praying with words will allow you to overcome your most frequent sins. Praying with your physical senses is so necessary as vocal prayer - you have to die to the world, you have to deny yourself and take the Cross. Indeed, the Lord can offer us plenty of graces through the great prayer of mortification.

But I’m certain you know this. You certainly do a lot of mortifications, perhaps much more than me, but you simply don’t use that expression. Well, the word is not relevant.

“Mortification is the drawbridge that enables us to enter the castle of prayer.”, St. Josémaria Escrivá (Furrow, 467)

Hey, I loved your post. Let me guess, you´re a member of the Opus Dei. (A st. Jose-Maria quote is a big clue!) I admire st. Jose-Maria very much, though I´m not a member of the Opus Dei. His vision of an ordinary life through extraordinary grace is beautiful. Here in Spain he is highly venerated, and I know many people in the Opus. God bless you.

 

[WH1988]

Hey, I loved your post. Let me guess, you´re a member of the Opus Dei. (A st. Jose-Maria quote is a big clue!) I admire st. Jose-Maria very much, though I´m not a member of the Opus Dei. His vision of an ordinary life through extraordinary grace is beautiful. Here in Spain he is highly venerated, and I know many people in the Opus. God bless you.

Thank you very much for your kind words. May God bless you too! I’m not an Opus Dei member, but my spiritual director is. Saludos de Portugal!

 

[SFD]

Well, I’ve been a Christian a very long time…And I learned along time ago that NO one can judge who can and cannot be a “good” christian.

Well, you learned wrong. We can all be good Catholics…that does not mean we all are good Catholics. We all judge the externals because that is all we can judge. The authority of the Church also can only judge the externals…She does not judge internal dispositions.

We have only one judge.

True, internally we are judged by God alone.

Giving up something is not the same as mauling yourself, nor is sacrificing something.

This is irrelevant.

I know alot of saints of ole did this, but some did this back then that NEVER became saints. (Actually giving up on being a Christian altogether) OPPS, I guess they didn’t beat HARD enough.

You’re quite immature for the “wise old sage” you want us to believe you are.

I guess you still believe that “every woman should get a good beating now and then”?

You’re incredibly immature for the “wise old sage” you want us to believe you are.

If you do it to yourself, you wouldn’t think twice about doing it to another.

This is so stupid…there is no other word for it.

SFD

 

[Auntie_M]

Well, you learned wrong. We can all be good Catholics…that does not mean we all are good Catholics. We all judge the externals because that is all we can judge. The authority of the Church also can only judge the externals…She does not judge internal dispositions.

True, internally we are judged by God alone.

This is irrelevant.

You’re quite immature for the “wise old sage” you want us to believe you are.

You’re incredibly immature for the “wise old sage” you want us to believe you are.

This is so stupid…there is no other word for it.

SFD

I’m really only two, I learned how to type when I was one, I just look old for my age…

 

[SFD]

I’m really only two, I learned how to type when I was one, I just look old for my age…

That explains it then…you haven’t even reached the age of reason yet. Thank you.

SFD

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

I just picked up on this thread. I want to thank you other posters for it ( especially the first couple of pages). My wife just got on me for being too “enthusiastic” ( my word) about my reversian to the faith. This thread really seated the nail for me. Thanks again to all.

 

[Henri_Searcher]

Can I just say to Auntie M. : Fair play to you girl to put up with all the un-Christian abuse and judgement that has been hurled at you in the last few pages of this thread! Animo, corraggio, adelante, onward…say what you have to say Girl. As for your “co-threaders”: lads, lets calm the judgements…we can all have the craic (as they say in Ireland) but we impoverish the threads by character assasination and point blank opposition. It is no longer the Spirit of Catholic theology (from Church Magisterium to Catholic Universities and to Religious education and the Ecumenical movement) to simply blast peoples’ opinions out of the water by a character assasination and by ridicule. Basta -enough already my brothers. Let us dialogue and discover the riches of those who express differing opinions to our own.
My dear brothers not all is black and white in our Faith. There are deep paradoxes: to our weak minds they seem like irreconcilable contradictions, not to God, yes to us. All attempts to sweep away the mystery and the paradox by a sweeping statement applied across the board too early and too limiting impoverishes the richness of our vast and mysterious Church. God leads us by many roads and in many ways: as a little true maturity and the school of hard knocks will no doubt reveal to us all. Listen, I used to be all black and white: those who fast are the “champions”, you have to be a hard nut renouncer to be a true Christian: away with the “softies” who sleep on cosy beds and walk with the “worldlies”! Judgement,judgement,judgement.
Man, when I hit a rough spot: in that voyage of hard knocks-guess who came to my aid (other than God!)? The Christians I had judged in my uni to be the “relajados”, the softies. People I had previously effectively excluded from my friendship by my attitudes were the ones who recieved me without judgement, humanly, with genuine charity. Man it means so much…and the dudes who reduce Christianity to arguing about dogmas and spirituality by entrenched and fixed all embracing ideas let me down and badly. One young PhD student even walked away from me because I dared to share a lecture I had heard on Ecumenism. I was merely repeating the line of the Church today and of Cardinal Kasper. But oh no this zealous student had chosen to be selectively faithful to the Church on this point. My words did not resonate with her medieval conception of inter-Church dialogue. “Go and get this checked out with a Professor of Ecclesiology” she scowled “Because this is not the Catholic position!” And she stone walled me and walked in front of me!!! Anatema sint! Well I checked out my position with various teachers at the University ( a very Traditional one) and you know what one Prof said to me: “How very immature of her!!!” One liner anatemas rarely help today and will often be short of the multi-dimensioned Truth and masking a failure to grow: an authentic immaturity! Right or wrong that girl who was supposed to be a friend and a fellow searcher really hurt me. So can we please get away from smart childish cynicism and try to help each other in a Christian way? Undergrads often fall into this trap: listen to young uni students: they are full of cynicism and love to take peoples’ efforts (intellectual, moral, or whatever…) apart and belittle them. Yes, they want to appear aloof and superior: but hey there just young dudes starting out on their intellectual journey. One liners and cynicism masks their ignorance. But what an anti-intelectual and anti-fraternal environment they create by their overly simplistic and youthful immaturity. Any one else noted this? Peace to all searchers, may the grace of God lead you for all your stumbling steps. forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

[Michael_Neal]

Are the priests you talk to you that recommend against motification canonized saints? I mean no disrespect because God has a different path for each one of us, but mortification may very well be what some people need. If it was good enough for countless saints it is good enough for other people.

It is in fact one of the spritual fruits we pray for during the rosary.

I am not talking about self mutilation but whacking yourself with a stick a few times would not be really that bad, I get worse injuries in my Judo classes. Or maybe jumping into a cold stream, taking a cold shower, denying yourself some luxeries, etc. It does not have to be severe.

 

[Michael_Neal]

Personally I have not resorted to beating myself or anything but I would not rule out some sort of minor physical punishment if necessary.

 

[Auntie_M]

A very special thank you to Henri Searcher

You are a very wise, learned, and faith -led person.

I don’t get too upset with remarks like I’ve seen here. The ones quilty of that are the main ones that need our prayers.

They are just misguided. Probably alot younger either in age or faith. The typical “teenage/young adult” response to the ills of the world. We’ve all been there, then you learn how unholy it really makes you feel and look.

The ONLY thing that will “make” you more holy is faith in God, Love and respect for yourself and others. God made us all, he knows we make mistakes, He has his own way of punishing us,
(ever feel like your prayers stop at the ceiling?) If God really wants to “punish” us for some mistake, He’ll separate himself from us for awhile. (Dark night of the soul).

There is NO greater punishment than to be separated from God even for a short while. Think about it…

(attacking others is definitely NOT a “Holy” thing.)

 

[Michael_Neal]

Auntie M, You seem to imply that others here do not have as a mature faith as you. There are many many saints that have a lot more developed faith than you, and they have the full backing of the Church on their lives as examples. They very often used mortification. Your argument does not hold much weight in comparison.

 

[SFD]

A very special thank you to Henri Searcher

You are a very wise, learned, and faith -led person.

I don’t get too upset with remarks like I’ve seen here. The ones quilty of that are the main ones that need our prayers.

They are just misguided. Probably alot younger either in age or faith. The typical “teenage/young adult” response to the ills of the world. We’ve all been there, then you learn how unholy it really makes you feel and look.

The ONLY thing that will “make” you more holy is faith in God, Love and respect for yourself and others. God made us all, he knows we make mistakes, He has his own way of punishing us,
(ever feel like your prayers stop at the ceiling?) If God really wants to “punish” us for some mistake, He’ll separate himself from us for awhile. (Dark night of the soul).

There is NO greater punishment than to be separated from God even for a short while. Think about it…

(attacking others is definitely NOT a “Holy” thing.)

3. Although they express their astonishment that We should number them amongst the enemies of the Church, no one will be reasonably surprised that We should do so, if, leaving out of account the internal disposition of the soul, of which God alone is the Judge, he considers their tenets, their manner of speech, and their action. Nor indeed would he be wrong in regarding them as the most pernicious of all the adversaries of the Church. For, as We have said, they put into operation their designs for her undoing, not from without but from within. Hence, the danger is present almost in the very veins and heart of the Church, whose injury is the more certain from the very fact that their knowledge of her is more intimate. Moreover, they lay the ax not to the branches and shoots, but to the very root, that is, to the faith and its deepest fibers. And once having struck at this root of immortality, they proceed to diffuse poison through the whole tree, so that there is no part of Catholic truth which they leave untouched, none that they do not strive to corrupt. Further, none is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious devices; for they play the double part of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and as audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance To this must be added the fact, which indeed is well calculated to deceive souls, that they lead a life of the greatest activity, of assiduous and ardent application to every branch of learning, and that they possess, as a rule, a reputation for irreproachable morality. Finally, there is the fact which is all but fatal to the hope of cure that their very doctrines have given such a bent to their minds, that they disdain all authority and brook no restraint; and relying upon a false conscience, they attempt to ascribe to a love of truth that which is in reality the result of pride and obstinacy.

Once indeed We had hopes of recalling them to a better mind, and to this end We first of all treated them with kindness as Our children, then with severity; and at last We have had recourse, though with great reluctance, to public reproof. It is known to you, Venerable Brethren, how unavailing have been Our efforts. For a moment they have bowed their head, only to lift it more arrogantly than before. If it were a matter which concerned them alone, We might perhaps have overlooked it; but the security of the Catholic name is at stake. Wherefore We must interrupt a silence which it would be criminal to prolong, that We may point out to the whole Church, as they really are, men who are badly disguised.

SFD

 

[Henri_Searcher]

Let us not be so polemical, so adamantly in search of a fight. The days of teaching by absolute unexplicative authoritarianism are in the west at a close. People need to make informed and rational choices. This is reflected in the balanced and explicative methods generally employed by the Church’s official teaching body today: the Magisterium. This is no more tangible than in the written style of Vatican II documents and in John Paul’s Catechism of the Catholic Church. The old “them and us” one liner anatemas are no longer generally in vogue! Come on, after all what do you hope to gain by them? Who do you hope to win over by 3 lines of condemnatory speel? You won’t catch our current Pope writing this way…he still manages to be THE figure of Authority in our Church…but he comes across as intelligent, tolerant and respectful but at the same time uncompomising in the Truth.
To be a Catholic is not to be anti-anything, it doesn’t mean per-se fighting a corner against the “enemies of the Faith.” Listen there is far more ignorance than adamant enmity stacked against us. The truth convinces the Reason and moves the Will…it attracts when God’s grace impulses and helps.
There is such a raw, uncharitable, unhelpful polemical edge to some thread contributions…Prayer could perhaps make us sweeter, more attractive in our living and expressing the Truth.
As for the question of liturgy: I think that those who fail to recognise the legitimacy of the Church’s Magisterium to help us have a true ortho-doxia (that is a true doxa: glorification of God) are the real selective Catholics: this really is fringe/schism. We can always do things better: but within the fold, within the Body, within the Church. God does not want to be glorified by a fringe group who consider themselves to be better than the rabble. Jesus chose the rabble, he embraced it, bled to death on the Cross for it, called it to Himself and destined it to be His bride. That is where he wishes to be found and glorified. That is where he will attract people to the Truth, not in the zealous, unbalanced polemical and isolated fringe groups. We can do so much from within…bleeding unsnobbishly with our Lord by being with the common garden parishioners…slowly, surely all are seeking, we are all in responsability for our neighbours! I am not advocating a reduction to the lowest common denominator, but a new and powerful understanding that to be Holy in our Church means to be in full Communion: with Christ and his “rabble”, his Bride, his Body. Brotherhood is a vital sign of holiness. We all have different social skills and interests granted…but we should all take a sincere interest in our local Christian family-wartz and all.
God Bless all Searchers and may Jesus crucified help us to be more outreaching, more fraternal, more willing to befriend in the dark depths of lost humanity. After that respecting and helping other Christians should be no sweat! forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

[latinmass]

To misguided Henrisearcher: You did have it right. The pious zeal for holiness, and turning away from the world is how we need to live our lives. I say in all humbleness, that what you lacked is humility. Whenever one thinks that they have to go out and get in anyones face about anything, humility is absent. We should all be telling others about Christ and the Church, but with fear, and knowing that could be me in error the next second if not for a merciful God. The last point that took you over the edge in your error of judgement is now your praise of those who have heretical beliefs. I am sure they are nice people but your relativism on the danger of their souls being outside the Church is troubling. Stick to the faith of our fathers in all humility, and don’t be fooled by the wolf is sheeps clothing. All this knowing that it is by the grace of God that we have the little knowledge that we do, and it could be taken away in a second if we are not humble.