Does Belief About Communion Effect Communion?

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Greetings Brothers and Sisters,

My question has to do with communion. I do not have an issue receiving communion in different Christian churches because in my view, my belief whether it be transubstantiation or mere remembrance does not change what God is doing in communion. I acknowledge that Jesus commanded me to participate in communion but as far as that goes the rest is speculation.

I use this example, I believe my car runs on spaghetti and meatballs, my friend says it works because of gasoline, third party opinion claims it works off of combustion. Regardless of the correctness of the belief the car still runs. In this case, Jesus told me “start the car once a week” and that’s what I do regardless of my understanding of why the car starts and whose parking lot it’s parked in.

Is this line of thinking sound?
 
The Protestant churches do believe that in taking communion they are achieving an intimacy with Christ they can attain in no other way. But they do not believe they are consuming His actual body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine, which is what we as Catholics should believe. Therefore, we are NOT allowed as Catholics to partake in Communion in any other Church (except perhaps Eastern Orthodox with permission). Likewise, no one but Catholics should be taking Communion in the Catholic Church. Transubstantiation is a difficult concept to grasp. But remember in John 6, many of Jesus’s disciples walk away and leave Him for this very fact: they simply cannot accept that He tells them they must eat His flesh and drink His blood. So to answer your question, it is NOT the same thing, as only the Priest actually consecrates the bread and wine to transform it into the Body and Blood of Christ (under the APPEARANCE of bread and wine). Protestants consume ordinary bread and wine and are only “spiritually” intimate with Christ as they “sup” with Him and with each other. Does that make sense?
 
Protestant communian is mere bread, eaten *in remembrance *of Jesus. Catholic Communian is Jesus: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
 
Veronica,

Thank you for you thoughtful reply. It’s the one I anticipated from a Catholic forum. 🙂 I know the Catholic Church says transubstantiation is happening because they say it is, now let’s imagine they’re wrong, but they go on believing that it’s right. What happens to communion?

My answer would be nothing.
 
LowerCasec said:
Veronica,

Thank you for you thoughtful reply. It’s the one I anticipated from a Catholic forum. 🙂 I know the Catholic Church says transubstantiation is happening because they say it is, now let’s imagine they’re wrong, but they go on believing that it’s right. What happens to communion?

My answer would be nothing.
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I really don’t understand what you are trying to get at here?

Also, Transubstantiation doesn’t happen because the Church says it is. It happens because that is what Jesus says is happening. We are just following the teachings of Jesus.
 
Look at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:29-30:

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

Paul doesn’t say, ‘If you believe it is the Body and Blood, then anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. But if you think it is just a remembrance, don’t worry, it’s all good.’

To Paul the reality of Jesus in the Eucharist is very real, very objective.

But, as you ask, what if we are wrong? Does it change the reality of communion? Yes. It would mean that my very faith is wrong. It would mean that when I think I am worshiping Jesus in the Eucharist, I’m really worship bread. It would mean that Paul and all who came after him are wrong.

Out of curiosity, which branch of Lutheran to own to?
 
Also, Transubstantiation doesn’t happen because the Church says it is. It happens because that is what Jesus says is happening. We are just following the teachings of Jesus.
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DJ, this is the response of every bible following church since and probably before Nicea. I understand that this is what you believe is happening.

I’ll define belief first: A belief is an idea that corresponds to reality.

I’m not affirming or denying transubstantiation here. If transubstantiation is a fact, my non-belief in it does not change it. If consubstantiation is a fact, my belief does not change it. My belief or disbelief in an external happening does not affect reality.
For example. I do not believe God exists.
Does this mean God doesn’t exist? No.
Does this mean God does exist? No.
God exists apart from my belief. I don’t see why communion would be any different. Therefore, if Catholics are wrong, what happens to communion? Nothing. If protestants are wrong, what happens to communion? Nothing.
 
LowerCasec said:
DJ, this is the response of every bible following church since and probably before Nicea. I understand that this is what you believe is happening.

I’ll define belief first: A belief is an idea that corresponds to reality.

I’m not affirming or denying transubstantiation here. If transubstantiation is a fact, my non-belief in it does not change it. If consubstantiation is a fact, my belief does not change it. My belief or disbelief in an external happening does not affect reality.
For example. I do not believe God exists.
Does this mean God doesn’t exist? No.
Does this mean God does exist? No.
God exists apart from my belief. I don’t see why communion would be any different. Therefore, if Catholics are wrong, what happens to communion? Nothing. If protestants are wrong, what happens to communion? Nothing.
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Actually I disagree with you. If Catholics are wrong then the whole Churchs is wrong but in terms of Transubstantations then you are right nothing happens because it is just bread. However, if Protestant are wrong then it is a whole nother story as you are now dening Jesus acutally words and teachings by denying what he taught meaning “partaking of him,” is not what you are doing or are doing it unworthily. As a previous poster said he that takes it unworthally is bringing condemnation upon himself. That is a rather big deal.
 
Fermat, what translation are you using, because as I read all of Chapter 11 out of the NASB I don’t find that dicernment pointing to Christ but instead to oneself.

v 27 and 28 are pointing to the consumer as well as v 31.

I appreciate your proofs so that I may fully understand the Catholic case.

Blessings,
 
LowerCasec said:
Fermat, what translation are you using, because as I read all of Chapter 11 out of the NASB I don’t find that dicernment pointing to Christ but instead to oneself.

v 27 and 28 are pointing to the consumer as well as v 31.

I appreciate your proofs so that I may fully understand the Catholic case.

Blessings,
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Maybe this will help you a little bit more…

catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist

catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence

Also, if you go to catholic.com and type in the search box your key words you might be able to find tracts that help explain the beliefs a bit more.

God bless.
 
Had I noticed that you were Lutheran, my response would have been different. Sorry; I just assumed that you were Catholic; I’m kind of tired right now and may have even thoguht that I read that you were Catholic…😊

Anyway, as you are not Catholic, you are not supposed to recieve Catholic Communain. If you want to go to Mass, that’s more than fine, but please refrain from recieving Communian while attending.
 
Thank you DJK and Violet.

Before anyone gets up at arms, I want to point out that I am not necessarily “anti-catholic.” In my experiences I find Protestants much more open to Catholics than Catholics have been to Protestants. I have my own thoughts on why this is, but I won’t go into it here.

I appreciate the Catholic Church and how it’s stood strong through many of history’s most difficult times. Though, I also recognize its short coming, and find great comfort in the remnant of Christians throughout history that stood strong even when the Church in Rome was swimming in sin.

At this point in my life the Catholic case isn’t convincing (or I’d be Catholic DUH!), but I don’t believe that Catholics or other orthodox Christians (affirming the creeds of the church fathers up to Chalcedon) who differ from my understanding of theology to be my adversaries. I can be at peace in any Christian Church, anywhere in the world, and know I am with family.
 
Protestant communian is mere bread, eaten in remembrance of Jesus
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Please be careful.

That may be true for some Protestants, but Lutherans know that it’s the true body and true blood of Jesus.

Luther’s thoughts are such: “… we do not make Christ’s body out of the bread … Nor do we say that his body comes into existence out of the bread *. We say that his body, which long ago was made and came into existence, is present when we say, “This is my body.” For Christ commands us to say not, “Let this become my body,” or, “Make my body there,” but, “This is my body.””

Note, Lutherans do not believe in consubstantiation - we don’t view the true body and true blood in concrete metaphysical terms. The true body and true blood is a “mystery of faith.”*
 
LowerCasec said:
Thank you DJK and Violet.

Before anyone gets up at arms, I want to point out that I am not necessarily “anti-catholic.”
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You aren’t coming across that way. We’re always glad to have questions.

To the discernment, it is for the person to discern themselves before presenting themselves for communion. But look at the consequences Paul lays out. Some of them are sick and dying because they took the body and blood of the Lord without that examination as to whether or not they were in proper relationship with G-d (e.g. no mortal sin). That is a very real consequence. So objectively speaking, if it were not Jesus on the altar, then it wouldn’t be a problem. It would also mean that what we believe as Catholics would be an error taught to the entire Church which would mean that the gates of hell prevailed against Jesus. So if it’s not true, we have a big problem.
 
LowerCasec, you might be interested to know that I was Protestant until I started attending Catholic Church at age 19 and officially became Catholic at age 29 (long story). Most of my family is either Protestant or not practicing any religion. So I’m in a unique position that I see discrimination on BOTH sides, and I try to be a “bridge” so to speak to help dispel myths that both sides have perpetuated. I also did not realize you are Lutheran (big difference from Methodist or Presbyterian), so that might have changed my first answer! Correct me if I’m wrong, but Lutherans believe that Jesus is JOINED to the bread but does not REPLACE the bread? So you are somewhere in that “middle ground” in your beliefs. Well, I can only say what I tell anyone who is searching for Truth: pray and ask God to show you. He always does in His time. God bless!
 
Holy Communion in the Catholic Church is objectively Jesus.

One who beleives that, has been baptized and is in a state of grace will recieve grace from it. One who does not believe that will recieve no grace, and may even merit punishment if they recieve with the intent to make a show of it or with the intent to profane the sacrament.

And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.” Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:23-32)

The reverse is also true. Nothing is possible without faith.

-Tim-
 
Veronica,

You’re right. I do believe something unique is happening at communion, what definition I haven’t figured out, heck, we may not have defined it all as of yet! My point of view has been that God is at work here, not me.

I don’t believe I am Judas, one of the links attempted to point this out. I don’t think this is any more fair than many protestant churchs who think the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon!

As for praying to find the truth, that’s the same tactic the mormons use, and I don’t trust myself. I think people have a way to feel warm fuzzies just because they want more than anything to feel warm fuzzies.

Good times!
 
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