S
Stu
Guest
I don’t believe in posting at Catholic Answers Forums.
- Status
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I don’t believe in spandex.
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Is this really necessary?
The first one or 2 wisecracks were okay, like 3 days ago, but this is getting old.
I’m being serious. Apparently 20 years ago when he wrote that book “Principles of Catholic Theology” he didn’t think that the decrees of Vatican 1 regarding Papal Infallibility and aspects of the Papacy were of the Apostolic content of the Christian faith.
Any meaningful responses are appreciated. Obviously he “believes in the Papacy” but the question I’m really asking is rather he believes the Roman Catholic (ie. Vatican 1) dogma of the Papacy, or the Eastern Orthodox belief regarding the place of the Bishop of Rome as a “supremacy of love” but not that of jurisdiction.
Thank you for those who have replied helpfully thus far.
M
Mot_Juste
Guest
Reformed Rob,
I have not read the books that you have quoted, but from your quotes alone I wonder if then-Ratzinger was not talking specifically about relations with the Orthodox church. Might he be saying something along the lines of “Let’s us recognize the common ground we already share with respect to the papacy - that being the role it played vis a vis the other patriarchs in the first millenium.”?
–Bill
I have not read the books that you have quoted, but from your quotes alone I wonder if then-Ratzinger was not talking specifically about relations with the Orthodox church. Might he be saying something along the lines of “Let’s us recognize the common ground we already share with respect to the papacy - that being the role it played vis a vis the other patriarchs in the first millenium.”?
–Bill
I
Ignatius
Guest
Reformed Rob:
God Bless
You are suffering from a fallicy of logic. The proper protocol is for the one making the accusation to be obliged to provide the proof.
God Bless
S
Sarah_Jane
Guest
“The Roman Pontiff’s episcopal responsibility for transmission of the Word of God also extends within the whole Church. As such, it is a supreme and universal *magisterial office; *it is an office that involves a charism: the Holy Spirit’s special assistance to the Successor of Peter, which also involves, in certain cases, the prerogative of infallibility. Just as all the Churches are in full and visible communion, because all the Pastors are in communion with Peter and therefore united in Christ, in the same way the Bishops are witnesses of divine and Catholic truth when they teach in communion with the Roman Pontiff.”
“The full communion which the Lord desires among those who profess themselves his disciples calls for the common recognition of a universal ecclesial ministry in which all the Bishops recognize that they are united in Christ and all the faithful find confirmation for their faith. The Catholic Church professes that this ministry is the primatial ministry of the Roman Pontiff, Successor of Peter, and maintains humbly and firmly “that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is — in God’s plan — an essential requisite of full and visible communion”. Human en ors and even serious failings can be found in the history of the papacy: Peter himself acknowledged he was a sinner. Peter, a weak man, was chosen as the rock precisely so that everyone could see that victory belongs to Christ alone and is not the result of human efforts. Down the ages the Lord has wished to put his treasure in fragile vessels: human frailty has thus become a sign of the truth of God’s promises.”
(The Primacy of the Successor of Peter in the mystery of the Church, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone)
Source : catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=711
“The full communion which the Lord desires among those who profess themselves his disciples calls for the common recognition of a universal ecclesial ministry in which all the Bishops recognize that they are united in Christ and all the faithful find confirmation for their faith. The Catholic Church professes that this ministry is the primatial ministry of the Roman Pontiff, Successor of Peter, and maintains humbly and firmly “that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is — in God’s plan — an essential requisite of full and visible communion”. Human en ors and even serious failings can be found in the history of the papacy: Peter himself acknowledged he was a sinner. Peter, a weak man, was chosen as the rock precisely so that everyone could see that victory belongs to Christ alone and is not the result of human efforts. Down the ages the Lord has wished to put his treasure in fragile vessels: human frailty has thus become a sign of the truth of God’s promises.”
(The Primacy of the Successor of Peter in the mystery of the Church, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone)
Source : catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=711
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Reformed Rob:
Sorry, Rob, but the title of your thread kind of lends itself to this, ie, “Do you want some pizza?” “Is the Pope Catholic?” Of course, the Pope believes in the papacy or he wouldn’t get up every day and put on the white robe. He was planning to retire to his house he owned with his brother in Germany, play the piano, and read until he was dead after the old Holy Father died.
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Hey that’s allright, no hard feelings and all is forgiven!
I just happened to quote you because you were the most recent poster, but yeah, I was starting to get frustrated.
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Yeah, I see, and at the time, it was just a voice mail message that made me want to get on this topic quick. I knew he would have premises to support such a conclusion, and that he would be slinging them my way soon enough. I wanted “proof” to counter, if possible, his “proof.”
I suppose, if I’m not totally satisfied with the responses, I am at least not totally satisfied with the allegation that “the Pope is not Catholic in His view of the Papacy.”
D
Dr.Italy
Guest
I hesitate to reply since I don’t have a copy of Principles of Catholic Theology available to me so as to reexamine the full context of Cardinal Ratzinger’s comments, but I’ll comment anyway since there are some important things to keep in mind. There is no question of his believing or not believing in the Papacy. His comments do not even address the dogmatic definition of Papal Infallibility of Vatican Council I. The passage is about the way in which the Petrine ministry is exercised, particularly the governmental dimension of that ministry and what must be required of the separated (Orthodox) Eastern Churches in order to reestablish full ecclesial communion. While the Pope had ultimate teaching authority and was the court of last appeal in all cases in the first thousand years of the Church’s history, the govenment of day-to-day affairs, including the selection of new bishops, was less centralized then than it is in the Roman rite today. He is saying that while it is absolutely necessary that all accept the Primacy of the Successor of Peter, there is no need to insist that the Orthodox accept as part of this a way of exercizing that primacy that evolved after the split. The latter is a matter of discipline, not dogma, and so there must be preserved a legitimate diversity between the various churches, Eastern and Western.
For a few articles and documents on the Papacy, visit the Papacy Library at the Crossroads Initiative website crossroadsinitiative.com/library_category/24/Papacy.html
Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D.
For a few articles and documents on the Papacy, visit the Papacy Library at the Crossroads Initiative website crossroadsinitiative.com/library_category/24/Papacy.html
Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D.
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Sarah Jane said:
Oh my!!!
So much to read and know!!!
Well, that helps thanks very much Sarah J.
I for one will not be so presumptious to think that the Pope denies clear Catholic doctrine just because he is probably an awesome theologian and knows more about the faith than I (not even a Catholic, but…) do.
Yet at the same time, I trust that the answers are out there, and so I have a right and a duty to search out the ones that I’m reasonably able to.
I’ve registered to the catholicculture site, will probably read that article sometime, thanks.
-Rob
R
Reformed_Rob
Guest
Dr. Italy:
I’m finding out that Catholic theology and ecclesiology isn’t comparable to simple algebra like many people would like it to be. It’s more like, uh, advanced calculus, with prime factorization and logarithmic integration. You know, things it takes a while to learn the ins and out’s of.
Not that a person can’t ever understand it, no, certainly the basics are great and fundamental, but all I’m saying is “don’t trash talk the math teacher because you don’t the syllabus.”
Does that make sense?
Anyway, that issue is settled for me.
Thank you very very much, Dr. D’Ambrosio, and of course everyone else. I have been reading “Principles of Catholic Theology” and I feel comfortable saying:
- There’s certainly more involved, and though the context does help, it certainly doesn’t answer the question completely.
- “Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void.” - Card. Ratzinger,
"Principles of Catholic Theology, p. 198
“On the Question of Reunion Between East and West”
I’m finding out that Catholic theology and ecclesiology isn’t comparable to simple algebra like many people would like it to be. It’s more like, uh, advanced calculus, with prime factorization and logarithmic integration. You know, things it takes a while to learn the ins and out’s of.
Not that a person can’t ever understand it, no, certainly the basics are great and fundamental, but all I’m saying is “don’t trash talk the math teacher because you don’t the syllabus.”
Does that make sense?
Anyway, that issue is settled for me.
- Status