Does bible talk of purgatory?

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joshua_b:
The Bible does talk of Purgatory, in the Deuterocanonical books (the books that Luther decided to cut because to leave them included would pose some SERIOUS problems of Protestant doctrine).
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Not at all. Have you read 11 Macc. 12:39-45? Their sin was idolatry (a mortal sin), not a venial sin. And, anyway, how do you get your doctrine of “Purgatory” out of that passage? Where does it reveal men (believers) suffering for an indefinite amount of time in order to be cleansed of sins they committed during this lifetime? Sins on which the blood of Christ had no effect (those which God must have forgotten to include in Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice).

Blessings,
Bene
 
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bene7:
Not at all. Have you read 11 Macc. 12:39-45? Their sin was idolatry (a mortal sin), not a venial sin. And, anyway, how do you get your doctrine of “Purgatory” out of that passage? Where does it reveal men (believers) suffering for an indefinite amount of time in order to be cleansed of sins they committed during this lifetime? Sins on which the blood of Christ had no effect (those which God must have forgotten to include in Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice).

Blessings,
Bene
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The dead were wearing amulets of a false “god.” The evidence of full-blown idolatry is inconclusive. They died fighting for the God of Abraham, and they fell in battle because of their sin. In the preceding chapter, it is noted that the Jews had good relations with their pagan compatriots, so a laxity born of good will had likely overtaken their judgment. Had their sin been inexpiable, Judas would not have taken up the collection for the sin offering.
 
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awfulthings9:
Where does the Bible define “Trinity” (or even use that term?)

Where does the Bible tells us that Christ has “two natures”?

Where does the Bible tells us that we are to go by the Bible alone?

Where does the Bible tell us that we must accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior?

Where does the Bible tells us that man has the authority to lead a church without himself having been appointed by Christ or by the laying on of hands through an authority figure?

Where does the Bible tell us that one should break away from a Church if its teachings don’t fit one’s own interpretation?
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very sarcastic. gotta love it…just right…eveyone is out to harm the catholics. so warm and welcoming…gotta love the hospitality.
 
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bene7:
Not at all. Have you read 11 Macc. 12:39-45? Their sin was idolatry (a mortal sin), not a venial sin. And, anyway, how do you get your doctrine of “Purgatory” out of that passage? Where does it reveal men (believers) suffering for an indefinite amount of time in order to be cleansed of sins they committed during this lifetime? Sins on which the blood of Christ had no effect (those which God must have forgotten to include in Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice).

Blessings,
Bene
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It reveals Purgatory because if the Jews believed that states like Heaven or Hell were the only options, they wouldn’t have bothered with prayers. Your error is in assuming that they died in a state of mortal sin. If they had died in mortal sin and, somehow, this was evident, then prayers would be futile. BUT:
  1. We don’t know that they actually believed in these idols or if they were simply carrying them around the way many today carry rabbit’s feet.
  2. These men could have converted already, but had not rid themselves of all the trappings of their past. Just as a person may quit smoking, but still have a pack or two in their car or even in a coat pocket that they haven’t disposed of.
  3. Even if these men were idolaters, who is to say that they didn’t repent in the last hours of their lives. Should we assume that a man who dies at his mistresses house didn’t, in the quake of his heart attack, realize the gravity of his sin and beg for forgiveness?
  4. One last thing to remember, which many seem to forget, is that while the Jews understood the importance of praying for the dead, the most clear distinction of mortal and venial sin was not defined so clearly until the New Testament, so for him to judge a Jewish doctrine by Christian standards is silly.
With all four of those possibilities, and possibly others, it was the responsible thing to simply HOPE they had not died in mortal sin and offer the prayers just in case they were in a place (Purgatory) where those prayers would be effective.

Bene, my Scripture tells me to judge not, lest I be judged. Why would you ignore this verse and judge the Jewish men in this story when that is the place of our almighty judge, God? Or, perhaps, has the “judge not” verse been removed from your Bible along with the deuterocanicals?

Also, you wrote: “Where does it reveal men (believers) suffering for an indefinite amount of time in order to be cleansed of sins they committed during this lifetime?” You are surely paying enough attention to know that Catholics aren’t claiming that Purgatory is to cleanse us of sins, but rather the effects or damage and the attachment to those sins. We agree with you that Christ’s sacrifise is perfect for effecting forgiveness for sin, but you have no basis to suggest that Christ’s sacrifice also removes the damage done to our love of God through sin? God cannot force us to love him without division, but Purgatory is the place where he offers repentent sinners the opportunity to strip ourselves from attachment to our earthly vices and to enter Heaven clean, as Revelation says all must be. Can you please give me the chapter and verse to support the contrary?
 
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mercygate:
The dead were wearing amulets of a false “god.” The evidence of full-blown idolatry is inconclusive. They died fighting for the God of Abraham, and they fell in battle because of their sin. In the preceding chapter, it is noted that the Jews had good relations with their pagan compatriots, so a laxity born of good will had likely overtaken their judgment. Had their sin been inexpiable, Judas would not have taken up the collection for the sin offering.
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Right, Mercygate; and 2 Macc. 7:32-36 and 12:40-42 make it clear that while their death is a punishment, yet through the prayers of the living they may find their sins expiated. And, of course, the salvific work of the Lord extends throughout the course of time. These passages are great indicators of a scriptural belief that prayers for the dead can be efficacious, and the Scripture simply assumes a belief that is already in practice among God’s People.
 
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bene7:
Not at all. Have you read 11 Macc. 12:39-45? Their sin was idolatry (a mortal sin), not a venial sin.
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Q: How can 2 Maccabees 12 prove purgatory? The dead soldiers for whom Judah prayed had committed the sin of idolatry, which is a mortal sin.

A: This is a common argument among those who wish to deny purgatory. If the soldiers committed idolatry then when they died they would have gone to hell, in which case Judah shouldn’t have bothered praying for them.

But the text tells us that Judah did pray for them. Even if he was wrong to do so, it still testifies to belief that prayer for the dead can do them good, and it is this theological belief—not the fate of certain particular individuals—that the author of 2 Maccabees stresses by recording the incident. Indeed, he sums it up by pointing out that “it was a holy and pious thought” on Judas’s part to make “atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (12:45) Whether the men in this particular case could be benefited is beside the point.

However, it is not at all certain that the individuals in question were damned. In the case of every human being, no matter how his spiritual state seemed to others at the time of his death, it is possible that there was a last-minute repentance that was not obvious to onlookers. Let’s be generous. If we don’t know that someone is unsaved—and we have no way of ever knowing for sure—let’s pray for him.

That would be a permissible course of action even we knew that a person was in mortal sin moments before his death, but in the case in Maccabees that is very far from clear. The soldiers Judah prayed for had been fighting a battle for Israel and its God—the true God. They happened to also be wearing “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the Law forbids Jews to wear” (12:40). In other words, they were wearing pagan good luck charms.

That isn’t the same as full-blown idolatry. Even in our monotheistic culture, a lot of people have charms or symbols of other religions (Egyptian ahnks, Taoist yin-yang symbols, Amerindian dreamcatchers) that in no way can be read as indicating the person’s fundamental religious convictions.

In this case, one can say with rather a lot of confidence that the charms of the Jamnia idols would seem not to be a good indicator of the soldiers’ religious convictions, since they died fighting for the true God. They may have had a superstitious involvement with amulets, but they were putting their lives on the line for Israel and its God.

Bottom line: Judah did the right thing.

(from: catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109qq.asp)
 
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ReflectHim:
very sarcastic. gotta love it…just right…eveyone is out to harm the catholics. so warm and welcoming…gotta love the hospitality.
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I must be misreading my own post. Could you please quote the line where I implied that “everyone is out to harm the catholics”?

Incidentally, in my house, I extend hospitality to anyone who treats my family and our beliefs with respect. If you felt that this type of respect was shown in Bene’s curt post, I’m afraid we’l must have a different idea of respect. Look back on posts where a non-Catholic asked a question or expressed a disagreement with respect and you’ll notice I responded in kind.

Perhaps I shouldn’t be asking an eye for an eye in tone. For that I apologize, but given the sarcasm of your own post, I see that you and I both are guilty of that.
 
I see that some of my Catholic bretheren have substantially answered the question as to “where in the Bible does it talk about Purgatory ?” (probably better than I could have I might add). You see Bene, just because the Bible doesn’t say explicitly “Purgatory is real” doesnt mean that Purgatory isn’t Biblical. The Bible doesn’t talk of a Trinitarian God either, but I’m fairly certain that you accept the concept of the Trinity, and accept it as purely Scriptural. And Purgatory has nothing to do with the propetiation of Jesus sacrifice at Calvary. Yes, our sins are forgiven by His merit and His merit alone, all Catholics agree with that. I think what the problem is is a misunderstanding of what purgatory is. Please remember that all the souls in Purgatory are GUARANTEED a place in Heaven, they just aren’t ready to be in the presence of God at the instant of their death. Purgatory is not some sort of “mini-hell”, but rather a place or more importantly a PROCESS, by which we are purified after we depart this life, before we can move on to our ultimate destination.
 
Although already mentioned in the first link posted by wildgraywolf, this scriptural passage from the prophet Malachi, and incorporated by Handel in his Messiah, always makes me think of Purgatory:
2But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. (Malachi 2-3)
The phrase “he will purify” above in Latin is “purgabit”, from the Latin word “purgare” (to cleanse, to purify), as is the word “Purgatory” (a place of cleansing, of purification).
 
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Milliardo:
Not directly, but Scott Hahn does make a good argument for it that it was inferenced indirectly. It’s a long read, but you can read his discussion here: star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html
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Another great apologist, Patrick Madrid, makes a good biblical case for Purgatory too:

envoymagazine.com/PlanetEnvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm

This thread is supposed to be about the Bible, but here are a bunch of quotes from the Church Fathers:

catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
 
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BennyD:
anything not in the bible is irrelevant
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So as not to cause unnecessary misunderstanding, I think this statement should be assumed to mean “irrelevant to your specific question.”

Has anything in this discussion been helpful, BennyD?
 
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BennyD:
anything not in the bible is irrelevant
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Is there ANY possibility that anyone has ever said, done, or declared anything outside of what is written in the Bible that could be considered infallible or “inspired”?
 
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BennyD:
anything not in the bible is irrelevant
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Since the Bible nowhere says that everything outside its pages is irrelevant, Catholics use St. Paul’s directive in Romans I, in which he declares that even the barbarians have no excuse for not undertstanding certain truths because these truths are written plainly on the face of the created world, which reveals the mind of God. In this way, Catholics accept both creation and Scripture as the “word of God.”

Moreover, when we look at the ambiguities of Scripture on things like Purgatory, infant baptism and such, we look to the actual practice of the apostolic and sub-apostolic Church of the first, second and third centuries. When we find a belief or practice evidenced this early in history, then we understand it as the teaching of the Apostles. When a teaching or practice is mentioned in early writings from far-flung churches in Asia, Africa, Europe, and Gaul, our confidence is clinched because it is clearly the understanding of the whole Church at that time.
 
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BennyD:
anything not in the bible is irrelevant
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One other thing. I’m very glad to see that you have so much confidence in the Catholic Church’s ability and authority to determine which scripture is inspired and which is not. However, you’re selling yourself short. 😉
 
BennyD & Bene7,

Where is “your rapture” in the bible, as taught in the “left behind” series of books and by the great minister L. Ron Hobbart?

Where does the bible deny the existance of purgatory?
 
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bene7:
Yeah, you’ve got it!! It’s a fantasy. It’s origin is not Biblical or Apostolic but rooted in ancient Persian and Greek philosophy, borrowed and introduced into Christianity by some early church writers.HEB 1:3 "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Blessings,
Bene
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BTW…

This was just my own personal opinion, which means nothing. I fully accept the Church’s teaching. Take it easy my friend.
 
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