Does Catholic submissive promote women to be weak and passive?

[Sereta]

I have difficulties with this Bible teaching.
I’m aware men shouldn’t abuse women and that men and women shouldn’t be the same in dress,demeanour etc but I generally believe marriage should be a team with neither being submissive.
Coming from a overseas Catholic family,my mum was is passive and weak and I don’t want to be this way because you have to deal with all sorts of people in this world and you won’t get far being weak.I actual perceive it as being dangerous and also keeping women as emotional cripples.
I don’t think women should be domineering,but I admire strong women but it seems to me that Catholic religion says women should be tender and motherly as good qualities and that equality in marriages is not looked upon favourably.
I know the Bible also states the husband should love his wife as his own body (ie lead unselfishly) however I still feel “sick” at the notion of “having to lessen and weaken my brain” for anyone.
To put it frankly,I believe being passive and weak as a woman is an emotional illness.

 

[EasterJoy]

If no one is submissive, you don’t have a team. If you want a team, everyone has to submit to what is in the best interest of the team. A leader cannot lead by intimidation; that is not a team, either. Most teams have roles in which one member is the eyes and calls the shots, but even then it is according to an agreed-upon game plan. A quarterback can’t just go out and do whatever he wants. The coach cannot be arbitrary, or he’ll break his team’s heart, and the team will disintegrate. No, everyone working together needs to do it with the sense that the sacrifices are for everyone’s welfare. If you get on a team and you seem to be the only team player, though, it isn’t being a doormat to be an example of someone who plays with passion, intelligence, and initiative, but also with unselfishness. Even one team player makes a difference in the direction of growth that is opened up.

As for brains–and I speak as someone with a graduate degree married to someone with a graduate degree–they can be overrated. If you are too smart for someone to tell you anything, you’re too smart for your own good. A willingness to sacrifice your own sense in order to listen to others is at least as important. Even this sinful world does not reward the capacity to be smart nearly so much as the willingness to be wise.

 

[Sereta]

If no one is submissive, you don’t have a team. If you want a team, everyone has to submit to what is in the best interest of the team. A leader cannot lead by intimidation; that is not a team, either. Most teams have roles in which one member is the eyes and calls the shots, but even then it is according to an agreed-upon game plan. A quarterback can’t just go out and do whatever he wants. The coach cannot be arbitrary, or he’ll break his team’s heart, and the team will disintegrate. No, everyone working together needs to do it with the sense that the sacrifices are for everyone’s welfare. If you get on a team and you seem to be the only team player, though, it isn’t being a doormat to be an example of someone who plays with passion, intelligence, and initiative, but also with unselfishness. Even one team player makes a difference in the direction of growth that is opened up.

As for brains–and I speak as someone with a graduate degree married to someone with a graduate degree–they can be overrated. If you are too smart for someone to tell you anything, you’re too smart for your own good. A willingness to sacrifice your own sense in order to listen to others is at least as important. Even this sinful world does not reward the capacity to be smart nearly so much as the willingness to be wise.

Thanks but that to me sounds like saying don’t be “a know it all” but be open to others,or the husbands,ideas.
That sounds reasonable,I love your sporting analogy and that to me sounds ideal,but it seems the Catholic teaching goes further then that as it’s almost saying that women are incapable and should be passive to their husbands etc.

 

[Pablopedro]

I have difficulties with this Bible teaching.
I’m aware men shouldn’t abuse women and that men and women shouldn’t be the same in dress,demeanour etc but I generally believe marriage should be a team with neither being submissive.
Coming from a overseas Catholic family,my mum was is passive and weak and I don’t want to be this way because you have to deal with all sorts of people in this world and you won’t get far being weak.I actual perceive it as being dangerous and also keeping women as emotional cripples.
I don’t think women should be domineering,but I admire strong women but it seems to me that Catholic religion says women should be tender and motherly as good qualities and that equality in marriages is not looked upon favourably.
I know the Bible also states the husband should love his wife as his own body (ie lead unselfishly) however I still feel “sick” at the notion of “having to lessen and weaken my brain” for anyone.
To put it frankly,I believe being passive and weak as a woman is an emotional illness.

Catholicism doesn’t even mildly imply women should be weak and passive. Read more lives of Saints. Catholic women are as powerful, courageous, intelligent, wise, and strong as a human being can be.

Try this one for starters (many are like this) vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_19981011_edith_stein_en.html

 

[bitterhope]

I can only speak for my marriage here, but I submit to my husband’s authority. That being said, he never bosses me around and he trusts me enough that the majority of the time I make the decisions that involve the everyday running of the home, family, finances, etc. I’m a military wife so I’m literally on my own the majority of the time, but I know what he likes and what he desires for our family and that is what I try to accomplish regardless of whether he is home or away. When major decisions need to be made, whether he is home or not, we find the way to communicate and make a joint decision if at all possible. But someone must have the final say. There are many times that we could go around and around and one of us would be unhappy about the final decision, so where does it end? Someone needs to decide eventually. If I make a decision on my own, he supports it regardless of whether if he agrees with it or not. If he decides something, I support him. When time allows we will talk things through some more, and eventually we find a compromise. All parents have times that a decision must be made in short amount of time. It isn’t possible to discuss every aspect of life with your spouse, especially when they are gone a lot. That is why it is so important to have a common vision in life and a clear expectation for the family that both spouses share. My husband gives up his desires for me, and I submit to his will. He is the head and I am the heart. The heart influences the head, but the head makes the choices. If there is a clear mission, the head and heart work together, and everything runs smoothly

 

[mdgspencer]

Jesus said “I do as the Father has commanded me” (Jn 14:31). That shows that the relationship this reveals can be quite healthy,

 

[mommy_k]

Thanks but that to me sounds like saying don’t be “a know it all” but be open to others,or the husbands,ideas.
That sounds reasonable,I love your sporting analogy and that to me sounds ideal,but it seems the Catholic teaching goes further then that as it’s almost saying that women are incapable and should be passive to their husbands etc.

No-we are all called to be peacemakers in marriage.

A strong, confident woman can be gentle, tender, and display feminine traits. This is a strength too. One is not exclusive of the other. It is a more controlled strength, as a matter of fact, for some.

Sometimes the need to prove confidence through domination, for both women and men, is a sign of weakness, insecurity, pride and so on.

We are l called to use our innate gifts God gave us to have peace and a balanced marriage.

 

[Nacho45]

If women were considered weak in the Catholic Church, we wouldn’t venerate Mary in the way we do. Marriage, strictly speaking, IMO is not a team effort as a husband and wife becomes one person, each benefiting from the other’s strengths. Speaking of which, women exhibit strength in a variety of ways. Some of the strongest women I have ever met were quiet and reserved. This is an admirable quality and not only in women. This modern world we find ourselves teaches the wrong thing about what is weak and what is strong in women.

Another thing to consider…is the second in command of a military unit weak? Is he or she needed less than the commander? Is one more competent than the other? In many cases, the second in command is better equipped and more capable than the commander; however, a good commander will realize this and be open to the seconds recommendations. A strong leader knows his or her weaknesses and uses the strengths of those around him or her to complete the mission. I know it’s different than marriage, but in some ways its similar. Just food for thought.

 

[Kelfa28]

Women are not weak. Nor should they ever be expected to portray weakness for the benefit of their marriage and their husband. A women is different from a man but she is every bit as strong and capable as any man and I don’t recall any Catholic teaching that suggest women are the weaker sex.

Another thing to consider…is the second in command of a military unit weak? Is he or she needed less than the commander? Is one more competent than the other? In many cases, the second in command is better equipped and more capable than the commander; however, a good commander will realize this and be open to the seconds recommendations. A strong leader knows his or her weaknesses and uses the strengths of those around him or her to complete the mission. I know it’s different than marriage, but in some ways its similar. Just food for thought.

Maybe it’s because I’m in the military myself but I can’t stand this comparison because of what it means. My husband has made this comparison and I’ve shot it down quickly based on what it implies.
Sure, the second in command is powerful and capable. He/she wouldn’t be the second in command if they weren’t.

However, the second in command is still under the complete and total authority of the commander. That is how the chain of command works in the military. If the commander makes a decision, even if it’s a horrible decision that negatively impacts the welfare, morale and general well-being of his troops, the second in command has no choice but to follow it. He/she can try to persuade the commander in his/her opinion but if the commander’s mind has been made up…that is it, there is no room for change.

I just cannot accept this concept within a marriage. A commander’s opinion or decision is never questioned by his subordinates, regardless of how bad or detrimental it is. One can only hope that the commander is removed from his position and replaced and that isn’t up to the second in command to make that decision if he/she finds the commander inept or inadequate at his job. As skilled, capable, smart and talented as the second-in-command is he is still under the total authority of the commander.

Another thing to consider is that the chain of command is set up in such a way that all officers are higher up then anyone who is enlisted. That means, technically, a second LT (the lowest on the chain-of-command of the officers) is still higher up then the E-9 (the highest of the enlisted). Someone who is a second LT is typically fresh out of college, totally new to the military and under the age of 24. An E-9 is always 20 plus years in with multiple deployments, is twice the age of that second LT and has clearly paid his dues and then some.
A smart LT would never tell any E-9 what to do. Unless he/she wants to be totally chewed out by the commander, who was probably having lunch with the E-9 and it came up in conversation.

 

[severus68]

I have difficulties with this Bible teaching.
I’m aware men shouldn’t abuse women and that men and women shouldn’t be the same in dress,demeanour etc but I generally believe marriage should be a team with neither being submissive.
Coming from a overseas Catholic family,my mum was is passive and weak and I don’t want to be this way because you have to deal with all sorts of people in this world and you won’t get far being weak.I actual perceive it as being dangerous and also keeping women as emotional cripples.
I don’t think women should be domineering,but I admire strong women but it seems to me that Catholic religion says women should be tender and motherly as good qualities and that equality in marriages is not looked upon favourably.
I know the Bible also states the husband should love his wife as his own body (ie lead unselfishly) however I still feel “sick” at the notion of “having to lessen and weaken my brain” for anyone.
To put it frankly,I believe being passive and weak as a woman is an emotional illness.

St JPII said it is mutual submission of husband and wife. Marriage should be about mutual respect and sacrifice, each working with the other for their marriage and their children.
.

 

[petra22]

I can only speak for my marriage here, but I submit to my husband’s authority. That being said, he never bosses me around and he trusts me enough that the majority of the time I make the decisions that involve the everyday running of the home, family, finances, etc. I’m a military wife so I’m literally on my own the majority of the time, but I know what he likes and what he desires for our family and that is what I try to accomplish regardless of whether he is home or away. When major decisions need to be made, whether he is home or not, we find the way to communicate and make a joint decision if at all possible. But someone must have the final say. There are many times that we could go around and around and one of us would be unhappy about the final decision, so where does it end? Someone needs to decide eventually. If I make a decision on my own, he supports it regardless of whether if he agrees with it or not. If he decides something, I support him. When time allows we will talk things through some more, and eventually we find a compromise. All parents have times that a decision must be made in short amount of time. It isn’t possible to discuss every aspect of life with your spouse, especially when they are gone a lot. That is why it is so important to have a common vision in life and a clear expectation for the family that both spouses share. My husband gives up his desires for me, and I submit to his will. He is the head and I am the heart. The heart influences the head, but the head makes the choices. If there is a clear mission, the head and heart work together, and everything runs smoothly

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Loving_disciple]

One of my patrons is Joan of Arc and she was submissive to those that God told her to be but she was anything but passive and submissive during her time of war. I would imagine that there is a time to be passive and submissive but I time for action and boldness as well.

 

[Nacho45]

Women are not weak. Nor should they ever be expected to portray weakness for the benefit of their marriage and their husband. A women is different from a man but she is every bit as strong and capable as any man and I don’t recall any Catholic teaching that suggest women are the weaker sex.

Maybe it’s because I’m in the military myself but I can’t stand this comparison because of what it means. My husband has made this comparison and I’ve shot it down quickly based on what it implies.
Sure, the second in command is powerful and capable. He/she wouldn’t be the second in command if they weren’t.

However, the second in command is still under the complete and total authority of the commander. That is how the chain of command works in the military. If the commander makes a decision, even if it’s a horrible decision that negatively impacts the welfare, morale and general well-being of his troops, the second in command has no choice but to follow it. He/she can try to persuade the commander in his/her opinion but if the commander’s mind has been made up…that is it, there is no room for change.

I just cannot accept this concept within a marriage. A commander’s opinion or decision is never questioned by his subordinates, regardless of how bad or detrimental it is. One can only hope that the commander is removed from his position and replaced and that isn’t up to the second in command to make that decision if he/she finds the commander inept or inadequate at his job. As skilled, capable, smart and talented as the second-in-command is he is still under the total authority of the commander.

Another thing to consider is that the chain of command is set up in such a way that all officers are higher up then anyone who is enlisted. That means, technically, a second LT (the lowest on the chain-of-command of the officers) is still higher up then the E-9 (the highest of the enlisted). Someone who is a second LT is typically fresh out of college, totally new to the military and under the age of 24. An E-9 is always 20 plus years in with multiple deployments, is twice the age of that second LT and has clearly paid his dues and then some.
A smart LT would never tell any E-9 what to do. Unless he/she wants to be totally chewed out by the commander, who was probably having lunch with the E-9 and it came up in conversation.

So, you just don’t want to be told what to do, especially by your husband, and are looking for loopholes to justify how wrong it is for a woman to be subjected to the authority of her husband? You should have thought about that prior to marriage.

You seem unaware of how the chain of command really works. For instance, if discipline breaks down within the unit in some way, who is held responsible for that, the second in command or the Commanding Officer? The senior officer in charge and sometimes that’s a person who has absolutely no immediate oversight on the incident. That is why generals are relieved when some E-4 commits a heinous incident. In the same way, who is responsible in the family for that family? The husband, so don’t you think if the responsibility is his he should probably have some measure of control over the family? It only makes logical sense; however, that control is directly supported or hindered by the wife. That is her choice to make.

BTW - I have seen many junior officers give orders to senior enlisted personnel. It’s their job. The enlisted personnel can and should provide guidance and a good officer listens, but it’s ultimately the officers decision. And if you had even been involved in a staff meeting, you would realize how wrong you are about questioning seniors decisions. It can sometimes get downright nasty, but once the door opens, whatever order was given gets followed.

 

[Nacho45]

St JPII said it is mutual submission of husband and wife. Marriage should be about mutual respect and sacrifice, each working with the other for their marriage and their children.
.

Instead of the 50/50 percent concept, it should be the 100/100 percent concept. They are both in it with everything they possess.

 

[Nacho45]

Indeed! We too often enjoy a good old fashioned cherry picking fest when it comes to scripture and focus only on small parts ignoring the whole and how it fits into everything else.

 

[Joe_5859]

I have difficulties with this Bible teaching.
I’m aware men shouldn’t abuse women and that men and women shouldn’t be the same in dress,demeanour etc but I generally believe marriage should be a team with neither being submissive.
Coming from a overseas Catholic family,my mum was is passive and weak and I don’t want to be this way because you have to deal with all sorts of people in this world and you won’t get far being weak.I actual perceive it as being dangerous and also keeping women as emotional cripples.
I don’t think women should be domineering,but I admire strong women but it seems to me that Catholic religion says women should be tender and motherly as good qualities and that equality in marriages is not looked upon favourably.
I know the Bible also states the husband should love his wife as his own body (ie lead unselfishly) however I still feel “sick” at the notion of “having to lessen and weaken my brain” for anyone.
To put it frankly,I believe being passive and weak as a woman is an emotional illness.

I presume you are referencing the passage from Ephesians 5 where it says “Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord” (v. 22). What seems to be almost universally overlooked by those who are uncomfortable with the passage is the verse that immediately precedes that one: “Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ” (v. 21).

That is the interpretive key to the whole passage. I would disagree that neither husband nor wife should be submissive. The truth is, both husband and wife should be submissive to each other. That’s what Ephesians 5 is all about.

One could say many things about my wife, but “passive” and “weak” are not two words anyone who has ever met her would use to describe her.

 

[sailor28]

Yes, more often than not it does.

I am grateful to be in a marriage where we both strive for mutual respect and submission. We learn and grow by communication and disagreement. The scripture versus is taken out of context and not seen as part of the whole. Male headship is not definitive Catholic teaching. (IMHO, I am not interested in debating that) Jesus is the head of my husband and I and our marriage.

There are several different ideologies about marriage, one is a complementarian view and one is an egalitarian view. Both use scripture to back of their positions. The first one has defined gender roles and male headship. The second one believes in co-leadership. Do some googling and read about the differences.

I also wanted to say I don’t think we should ever use a Pope’s writing from centuries ago to prove that women should submit to men in marriage. Overtime, we have come to a greater understanding of many things. It has only been 100 yrs since women were allowed to vote and have basic rights.

It is wise for you to question this. Take what you hear and do your own research. This verse, I believe, is the most misused and abused scripture verse out there (in marriage). I have not seen it lead to healthy marriages that foster communication and skills for working out differences. It is also often used without including the verses after it. that makes it even worse.

 

[severus68]

Instead of the 50/50 percent concept, it should be the 100/100 percent concept. They are both in it with everything they possess.

Why instead of? Each 100 % in is the way to go.

 

[bitterhope]

The problem with Eph 5 is people focus on the wife’s role. People spend do much time debating whether or not a woman should submit to her husband that they completely ignore what the man is told is his job–and that part if the verse is much, much longer with much more that must be done. I am a very strong willed, hard headed woman. I and very opinionated and far from a doormat. But when I read Eph 5, I happily accept my role of submission. It’s much easier than the role my husband has. He essentially is told his life is worthless, his desires mean nothing, and his entire purpose is to make his wife happy. Everything he does must be for the good of his wife and to make her goals work. When I see that the husband must give up his life for his wife, that he leaves everything behind, including his parents, so to embrace his wife and become one with her…you know, submitting to him becomes the easier path. I’ll take it, because by submitting to someone who is bound to live his life with the sole purpose of honoring me it not really submission is it? Yeah, I prefer the woman’s role, and I do as much as possible to lighten my husband’s load for him.

 

[severus68]

;12006458]So, you just don’t want to be told what to do, especially by your husband, and are looking for loopholes to justify how wrong it is for a woman to be subjected to the authority of her husband? You should have thought about that prior to marriage.

You are making personal remarks.
We are not fundamentalist Christians who take the position that a woman is always under the authority of a man with the authority of her father handed over to her husband.

u

seem unaware of how the chain of command really works. For instance, if discipline breaks down witYohin the unit in some way, who is held responsible for that, the second in command or the Commanding Officer? The senior officer in charge and sometimes that’s a person who has absolutely no immediate oversight on the incident. That is why generals are relieved when some E-4 commits a heinous incident. In the same way, who is responsible in the family for that family? The husband, so don’t you think if the responsibility is his he should probably have some measure of control over the family? It only makes logical sense; however, that control is directly supported or hindered by the wife. That is her choice to make.

BTW - I have seen many junior officers give orders to senior enlisted personnel. It’s their job. The enlisted personnel can and should provide guidance and a good officer listens, but it’s ultimately the officers decision. And if you had even been involved in a staff meeting, you would realize how wrong you are about questioning seniors decisions. It can sometimes get downright nasty, but once the door opens, whatever order was given gets followed.

Marriage is not the military or a government department or a corporation. Both husband and wife have responsibility for their family. Marriage does not make a woman lose her brains and all her abilities.