Does Catholic submissive promote women to be weak and passive?

[severus68]

No,of course you prevent a child
getting hurt.
That’s not being controlling,that’s just good parenting.
I was only specifically referring to the notion of being controlling or having “control issues”.
Eg:some parents attempt to still control their adult childrens decisions regarding life.
Or sometimes if a dad tries to control a teenage daughter and forbid her from dating a certain boy instead of guiding her,communicating with her,telling her the reasons why he’s not happy with her dating him etc…
if he just “controls her” and says “I forbid it” sometimes the teen rebels and it drives her more to the boyfriend.
These sort of situations etc…
A good parent will guide,discipline,teach etc but that’s different from being “controlling”.

True.
It is hard not to be controlling as we love and want our kids to make the right choices but we need to pull back as our kids grow to be teens and then adults. If we teach and guide our children from young, we should not fear letting them go when adults.

 

[Nacho45]

I understand this wasn’t addressed to me and I’m not trying to be contentious, but personally I don’t believe anyone should have control over anyone else in life

I appreciate your not wanting to be combative, thank you! What I think people are not completely understanding is in a proper husband wife relationship, neither takes control of the other, rather they both submit to one another. They both work within the abilities provided and support the other to the best of their ability. I had a friend who once told me he had no idea where the money went, his wife took care of all the bills and savings. I asked him why he didn’t have any involvement. He said he was horrible with that sort of thing and she was much smarter in those areas. I mentioned his being the head of the house and his response was it was his decision to not get involved with money and mess things up. You see, it isn’t about absolute control over anyone in marriage, it’s about harmony within the guidelines God provided. Someone must be held accountable and that responsibility has been placed on the husband, whether the husband or wife wants it that way or not. It is inescapable and fighting against it changes nothing. No one is advocating a tyrannical husband with a wife cowering in the corner of the kitchen. That’s ridiculous and those who use this as an arguing point as equally ridiculous. It is no different the relationship we have with Jesus. We voluntarily submit to Him, even though we don’t have to do this, and willingly do the best we can within that relationship.

even including parents as parents, mum or dad, who attempt to have control over their child, often it backfires and ends up a recipe for disaster.

Well, I will simply say I absolutely disagree with this statement. Children need control and discipline. Without it they run amuck and turn into little disasters resulting in huge disasters as they get older.

Adult children should still honor their parents, but when they live their own lives, they are no longer under parental authority.

However, I think “control issues” is a different topic then marriage roles and gender inequalities.

It is, because there is no control without willful submission. Even then, it’s the wise choice of the spouse to choose to be subordinate to the other, not control and forceful submission.

Within the proper Catholic context of marriage, there is no inequality of gender. Each has its role and if fulfilled properly, each is adequate and equal to the other for their role. The braking system on a vehicle are no more or less equal in value than the internal combustion engine which makes it move. They each have a specific role, designed differently for that role. If one does not function properly, it makes the other less, not the other way around.

I hear your concerns about the commander (father) being held responsible but isn’t it more the case, that in America at least, by law, either parent/sex can be held responsible.

Man’s law and Gods law are not always the same. In fact, man’s law is sometimes down right preposterous.

Eg:if a mother knowingly supplied drugs for her underage child she would be the one prosecuted, not the father.

Man’s law, yes, but God may have different ideas. I believe Jesus spoke on the differences between the two.

 

[Sereta]

A number of people are mentioning that in Ephesians it says for both husband and wife to submit,but it does directly say there that the husband is the head of the wife and i’m also referring to 1 Corinthians 11-16.
Also,the Jerome Bible commentary says (at least according to the bottom of the below linked website) that the reason Paul wrote regarding veiling was because some women were no longer wearing veils.That Paul “reprobates this behaviour as unbecoming to women,because God has established a hierarchy,in both the natural and religious spheres,in which the female is subordinated to the male sex.This hierarchical subordination should be recognised in her behaviour and dress…”

I find this unsettling & consider it an unhealthy society if it promotes one sex as higher than another.
Of course also potentially dangerous,whether physical or psychological.
In countries where women are seen as lower on the hierchy than men,their are big problems.

I don’t think that women should be domineering or aggressive either.
I think genders should be equal in marriage and society.
If a man and a woman are able to have a happy marriage,with same outlooks and compatibility,that’s relatively argument free,and they can do that by being a team and neither of them being submissive or passive,shouldn’t that be seen as a good thing?
Also,I thought,weren’t all people created equal?

whatdoesthechurchteach.blogspot.com.au/2010/06/veil.html?m=1

 

[Sereta]

Avocadomom said:

“As to leadership, I honestly can’t relate to the idea of only one spouse taking that role.”

Yes–what’s to become of the family when the head is gone, which is all day long (and weeks or months or a year at a time for others)? What if dad dies? Is there suddenly no head? No leadership, no decisions being made? And if mom dies, is there suddenly no heart? One needs a bit more redundancy in a family system for it to function properly.

What if the husband doesn’t die?

 

[bitterhope]

Do you consider Mary to be weak and passive? When Joseph told her she must travel on the back of a donkey while very pregnant for a long journey, she submitted. When he awoke her in the middle of the night because he had a dream and was told to flee to Egypt, she didn’t debate him. She grabbed the baby and they left. Sometimes there is no time for discussion and someone needs to make a decision. I’m positive Joseph never abused or took advantage of Mary, and I’m positive she was a submissive wife.

I think what has happened is people are looking at the way things can go wrong and are trying to fight those wrongs by using another wrong. Instead of telling husbands that their wives would be more than happy to allow him to lead her if he was being the Christlike leader he should be, we are telling wives that if your husband isn’t upholding their role then she doesn’t need to uphold hers. Two wrongs don’t make a right anywhere in life. And I think sometimes people forget that we aren’t only supposed to love our neighbor but also our enemy. We don’t just do good for our husbands because they deserve it, we do good for them even when they don’t deserve it. Catholic marriage is sacramental. St. Paul wrote a very good guide for married couples that is all too often distorted. He didn’t write just one, but several, and they should all be read and followed. St. Paul wasn’t the sexist I’ve heard many people make him out to be. He was very clear that husbands were to lead, but only after dying for their wives. I would much rather be lead than to lay down my entire life. Following does not show weakness. If it did, all of us who follow Church teaching are weak.

 

[bitterhope]

I also think that people are forgetting that having a leader doesn’t mean that everyone is kept in the dark. My husband does led me, but I take care of the finances, the home, the car, the kids, basically everything. If he dies as someone asked, it would be devastating. It would take time to recover. I would grieve for years. But I would not be lost just because my husband was no longer home to lead me. I’ve seen enough widows to know life goes on for the ones left behind. Do all major corporations go under because the CEO is no longer there? No, someone else steps in to take the lead. Mary survived after Joseph was gone. Things change, yes. But even if the wife were not submissive and her husband was gone, things would change tremendously.

 

[Sereta]

It is a little rude to reduce a person to his genitalia. Your womanhood is your genitalia, and nothing more? I think most women would say that a man who would say that sort of thing has a few things to learn about women and is grossly lacking in his appreciation of women, to put it kindly. Consider that perhaps that standard goes both ways.

Our Lord told Pilate, “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above.” (John 19:11a) Do you think the Pope earned his place as the Vicar of Christ? Do you think a priest can* earn *the priesthood? No, there was a position of authority, and someone is chosen.

Your husband has the burden of authority in your marriage, for which he will be answerable. Unlike a parish, a wife chooses her husband, though–in the case of a Christian, with the guidance of God, one hopes! You chose your husband, you put that authority onto him. You two can make decisions in your marriage in any way you see fit. If you chose someone for that position because he will make decisions with you in complete equality, and this satisfies you both, then that is good! I would very strongly suggest that everyone who marries is on the same page about this! There is nothing wrong with that, and it is no one else’s business. Your attitude towards him as a man, though, I would venture to say that it is sorely lacking, and nothing of the sort that women would accept if it were coming from a man.

(I would also examine the prejudice that a person with authority over you must have “expertise that I don’t have” or must have “earned it” in your estimation in order for your submission to their authority to be fitting. Who are you, that you cannot accept direction from anyone unless the choice of whoever gave them that position happens to suit To me,you?)

To me though,it seems it can’t be both ways.
Either Catholic teaching means man=head woman=equals passive and submissive or alternatively it means an equal partnership.

 

[Xantippe]

Sereta said:

“To me though,it seems it can’t be both ways.
Either Catholic teaching means man=head woman=equals passive and submissive or alternatively it means an equal partnership.”

I think that work is one of the ways we earn responsibility and authority, so I think that this is a false dilemma.

A think a spouse or parent often earns authority by being responsible and hard-working. Take for example being a parent. If I myself am lolling in bed until 9 AM, I’m not going to have a lot of credibility telling my kids that they need to be up and ready for school by 7:30. I earn the authority to give them that order by being up and moving around myself.

(A disabled parent might genuinely not be able to able to do things, but I’m just describing how this works in practice, rather than giving a prescriptive account.)

Likewise, a spouse who has their sleeves rolled up, is dependable, loving, and capable will automatically get cooperation from all but the must intransigent of spouses.

Example is very important.

 

[bitterhope]

Yes, example is very important. No one can do more than their very best. If a spouse gives there all, that is all anyone can ask. No decent husband is going to demand that their wife perform beyond her capabilities, and a truly decent man will assist his lady love so that she doesn’t need to feel overwhelmed. If he is doing all he can to make life enjoyable, his wife is going to do her best to make his life enjoyable as well. If I request something from my husband he jumps as high as he needs to meet my expectations. When he asks something of me I also try to give him what he wants. If he decides something I usually go along with it, but if I object he knows that it is because I find it either impossible or immoral (it’s never been immoral, but if it were I would object). Twice he decided something for our family without consulting, and there was absolutely no way he could have consulted with me first. Both times he showed himself to be a wise and capable leader.

 

[Sereta]

For me,being submissive and passive means giving your power away and almost living with a childlike,emotionally undevelopment personality.

The way some answerers are describing their marriages,Eg: Bitterhope, doesn’t really sound to me like a traditional man=head woman=submissive role,but more like a marriage built on shared decision making but if their is arguments or “butting of heads” that the husband will make the last decision.
That seems reasonable to me,it works for some couples,but are other couples “not doing marriage the Catholic way” if they also have a harmonious marriage but it’s built on equality with noone being the “head” and a “follower”?

Submission,in the sense that some describe,simply can’t happen without someone being a subordinate and lesser on the hierarchy.
Some are saying to not want to be lesser is pride,but I’m not sure I’d agree because African Americans were once given a subordinate (slave) role and people actually believed that their nature rendered them most suitable to that position.
It wasn’t pride that they wanted to be equal and I think internally we all have a feeling of wanting equality,and not subordination,regardless of race,gender etc…

Some answering also compare a wifes submissive subordinate role as similar to having a boss that’s “higher” then you giving directions.
Personally though,I don’t take a boss as being “authority”.I see them as equal but you work for them with mutual benefi

 

[Nacho45]

What power would you be giving away? None of us have real power. One can be passive without being submissive and submissive without being passive. I think for a good discussion to continue to develop you may need to define some of the terms you are using.

It really seems you just don’t want to answer to anyone, but you do and always will. Someone will always have you in a subordinate position no matter who you are or what you’re doing.

Also, subordinate in no way indicates lesser or weakness and certainly does not mean slave or have anything to do with equality.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

What power would you be giving away? None of us have real power. One can be passive without being submissive and submissive without being passive. I think for a good discussion to continue to develop you may need to define some of the terms you are using.

Also, subordinate in no way indicates lesser or weakness and certainly does not mean slave or have anything to do with equality.

Seems to me you’re the one that needs to start defining words. How in the world do you define subordinate without lesser/weakness/inequality?

 

[Kit15]

Do you consider Mary to be weak and passive? When Joseph told her she must travel on the back of a donkey while very pregnant for a long journey, she submitted. When he awoke her in the middle of the night because he had a dream and was told to flee to Egypt, she didn’t debate him. She grabbed the baby and they left. Sometimes there is no time for discussion and someone needs to make a decision. I’m positive Joseph never abused or took advantage of Mary, and I’m positive she was a submissive wife. .

I never liked this example because this assumes a LOT about what happened that never actually got written down. If Mary can ask God “How?”* and be given an answer* before consenting to be the Mother of God of all things, surely she can ask her husband “Why?” when it comes to other monumental decisions. If God saw fit to answer her questions, I’m pretty sure Joseph would have found the time to fill her in even if it had to be done while packing.

Also the question “leave or be slaughtered” is a bit of a no brainer. Is a couple with previous experience in conversing with angels and looking out for the well being of their child really going to argue this one? If the scenario you describe is what actually happened, Mary may have been going along with Joseph’s plan without a thought but common sense, love, and trust probably had more to do with it then simply “because I’m the wife and the wife submits”. Is a good wife really going to argue this with a good husband?

 

[Bookcat]

How in the world do you define subordinate without lesser/weakness/inequality?

By using the apt meanings – especially the Christian ones.

Please see my post of Msgr. Pope -that should help all.

 

[Xantippe]

Kit15 said:

“I never liked this example because this assumes a LOT about what happened that never actually got written down. If Mary can ask God “How?” and be given an answer before consenting to be the Mother of God of all things, surely she can ask her husband “Why?” when it comes to other monumental decisions. If God saw fit to answer her questions, I’m pretty sure Joseph would have found the time to fill her in even if it had to be done while packing.”

Yep.

In particular, the need to go to Bethlehem for census purposes would have been universally known and would not have needed to be a matter for debate, any more than the need to pay our federal taxes every year is.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I wanted to leave this here to refute any idea that Catholicism promotes weakness or passivity in women.

Sr. Col. Dr. Deidre Byrne is a sister in the order of the Little Workers of the Sacred Heart. She’s a physician who runs a clinic for the indigent in Washington, D.C… And she’s a colonel in the US Army, and served in combat as an Army surgeon in Afghanistan.

 

[Nacho45]

Seems to me you’re the one that needs to start defining words. How in the world do you define subordinate without lesser/weakness/inequality?

Not only did that not answer any question I was proposing, it attempted to suggest the problem is in my defining of those words. In other words, it was shifting focus.

Again, we should learn that posters understanding of the words and usage prior to making further assumptions.

If you want to look at definitions, you can start with its usage as a noun rather than a transitive verb, and when looking at the adjective try not to pick the definition to fit the victimized woman argument (dictionary dependent), rather the one which fits what we are discussing. However, I’m more interested in the posters understanding.

 

[PennyinCanada]

The angel spoke to Joseph, to take the Child and His mother, and leave.

Have we forgotten that, if your family is a ‘little church’, that God can direct and guide the husband for the benefit of his family, his wife and children?

As a Catholic woman, will I be willing to search for a practicing Catholic man as a suitable life partner? If I’m a mother, do I raise my boys to be pious, to look to God for guidance in their lives? Do I understand, and can I teach my children that walking in God’s plan for my life brings blessings?

When I was first married, we could not agree on something, not a big matter, and I agreed to his decision after a discussion. I learned on these small matters that in spite of my will to go another direction, my husband’s decision turned out better than expected. Well what a surprise. lol There came a time were I realized that I could trust him with the big decisions because he was a man of prayer, a man that submitted to God, a man that prayed a daily rosary. Over the years there have been some very difficult decisions but I could trust that God is in our midst. There is a blessing if I do some small sacrifice. Is there a blessing if I do a big sacrifice? Of course. Does that mean I’m weak? No. It means there is a bigger picture that I can’t see right now, but God does. There are all kinds of ways to show God you trust Him.

 

[PennyinCanada]

To trust God for something is not passive, it is an action.
Just look at Peter who stepped out of the boat. Insanity, yet he walked on water. The ones who refused to get out of the boat (and I have a lot of empathy for them!) did not experience the power of God but were bystanders while someone else did that. After being in that moment, who knows what they did in the years afterward! Saints in training. When we are operating within the power of God, miracles happen. Jesus, the Son of God, creator of the universe, submitted to sinful men and submitted to the scourging, the carrying of the cross, the torture and death on the cross. In this, He has redeemed the world. We, men and women both, would gain great merit to meditate on this mystery. We are saints in training. Can we start with the small things? Crucify our will and say no to something we want? Then we see what strength is necessary for even a small matter. May God help us.

 

[bitterhope]

Yes, I’m sure Mary asked why at times. Probably a lot! But when it came down to it she allowed Joseph to lead her. Allowing your husband to lead does not mean you can’t have opinions or that you can’t disagree or that you don’t argue sometimes or that you never discuss anything at all. It does not mean you can’t ask questions or you can’t view things differently. Many times your husband will even change his mind because he knows you know better than he does in many matters. And most likely your husband will usually do things your way because he isn’t a tyrant on some sort of ego trip. In a Catholic sacramental marriage, God gives us the graces we need to live out our vows and our roles as husband and wife and our roles as mothers and fathers. St. Paul wrote a very detailed guide book to help us out as well. If we combine all the writings of St. Paul on marriage, and add the examples given to us of other women in the Bible–most importantly of Mary–we get a very clear picture of what we should be doing in our home life. Since the Church approved the books included in the Bible and declares them to be Divinely inspired, what reason do people have to take it as the Church doesn’t teach the husband is the head of the family? This is a big reason why people need to know, respect and trust the person they marry.