Does Catholic submissive promote women to be weak and passive?

[bitterhope]

To trust God for something is not passive, it is an action.
Just look at Peter who stepped out of the boat. Insanity, yet he walked on water. The ones who refused to get out of the boat (and I have a lot of empathy for them!) did not experience the power of God but were bystanders while someone else did that. After being in that moment, who knows what they did in the years afterward! Saints in training. When we are operating within the power of God, miracles happen. Jesus, the Son of God, creator of the universe, submitted to sinful men and submitted to the scourging, the carrying of the cross, the torture and death on the cross. In this, He has redeemed the world. We, men and women both, would gain great merit to meditate on this mystery. We are saints in training. Can we start with the small things? Crucify our will and say no to something we want? Then we see what strength is necessary for even a small matter. May God help us.

Yes! Often times it takes a much stronger person to let go of control and accept the will of God. Many times it takes a much stronger wife to allow her husband to lead the family (which includes her). It takes a strong woman to let go of her pride and follow her husband’s dream instead if hers, or to pursue a career as he stays home with the kids, or to hand over the checks if he’s more capable with finances, or fill in the blank with many numerous things. It’s all about trust, and trust is not only hard but scary.

 

[Nacho45]

Men are called to be the spiritual head of the family. There are many reasons God could have done this, none of which really matter to us because that’s just how it was done. If a woman is not prepared to place herself under the leadership of her husband or a man prepared to take on that role, they should not marry. Her submitting herself to his authority is not weakness nor passive. it is honorable, just and indicitive of a desire to be a righteous woman. Here is an article which does a pretty good job of summarizing most of the main objections.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6387.

It is written by a priest for Catholic Answers. And remember, people have been objecting to how God does business since the very beginning. It’s nothing new and never pursuaded Him to change.

 

[Sereta]

I wanted to leave this here to refute any idea that Catholicism promotes weakness or passivity in women.

Sr. Col. Dr. Deidre Byrne is a sister in the order of the Little Workers of the Sacred Heart. She’s a physician who runs a clinic for the indigent in Washington, D.C… And she’s a colonel in the US Army, and served in combat as an Army surgeon in Afghanistan.

Thanks.That was an interesting story.

 

[Sereta]

So,it sounds like most Catholics follow a Complementarian view with the male being head and leader and the woman being follower,passive and nurturing.
This,however,seems to limit male female gender roles to quite limited,with everyone who follows this model having a similar-almost cookie cutter- personally with the only differences being external look/appearance and “superficial” interests Egne woman might like football and another might like iceskating etc…

If everyone was this “traditional way” then it sort of takes the flavour out of life,the vast myriad of different personality types,and every woman would have to adopt a personality type of nurturer and passive.

This Complamentarian view seems to me to be a good marriage model for couples who are incompatible,have greatly different views,or who argue alot but I don’t understand why it has to be also for couples who are already harmonious,work things out as equals,and compromise.

One other thing I have trouble understanding is why people in the Catholic Church who believe in this “man head of woman” view agree with women being bosses in the workplace or country leaders etc as they are the “head” there.

 

[Sereta]

Please ignore the smiley emoticon,its meant to say “one”.

 

[petra22]

The angel spoke to Joseph, to take the Child and His mother, and leave.

Have we forgotten that, if your family is a ‘little church’, that God can direct and guide the husband for the benefit of his family, his wife and children?

As a Catholic woman, will I be willing to search for a practicing Catholic man as a suitable life partner? If I’m a mother, do I raise my boys to be pious, to look to God for guidance in their lives? Do I understand, and can I teach my children that walking in God’s plan for my life brings blessings?

When I was first married, we could not agree on something, not a big matter, and I agreed to his decision after a discussion. I learned on these small matters that in spite of my will to go another direction, my husband’s decision turned out better than expected. Well what a surprise. lol There came a time were I realized that I could trust him with the big decisions because he was a man of prayer, a man that submitted to God, a man that prayed a daily rosary. Over the years there have been some very difficult decisions but I could trust that God is in our midst. There is a blessing if I do some small sacrifice. Is there a blessing if I do a big sacrifice? Of course. Does that mean I’m weak? No. It means there is a bigger picture that I can’t see right now, but God does. There are all kinds of ways to show God you trust Him.

I found this out too. If I trust him, it turns us in the right direction.
I could argue and ask questions and fuss and fight until I understand. But I have discovered trust in his decisions. Maybe the church does make me submissive, but it seems to get me where I want to go…

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The angel spoke to Joseph, to take the Child and His mother, and leave.

Have we forgotten that, if your family is a ‘little church’, that God can direct and guide the husband for the benefit of his family, his wife and children?

As a Catholic woman, will I be willing to search for a practicing Catholic man as a suitable life partner? If I’m a mother, do I raise my boys to be pious, to look to God for guidance in their lives? Do I understand, and can I teach my children that walking in God’s plan for my life brings blessings?

When I was first married, we could not agree on something, not a big matter, and I agreed to his decision after a discussion. I learned on these small matters that in spite of my will to go another direction, my husband’s decision turned out better than expected. Well what a surprise. lol There came a time were I realized that I could trust him with the big decisions because he was a man of prayer, a man that submitted to God, a man that prayed a daily rosary. Over the years there have been some very difficult decisions but I could trust that God is in our midst. There is a blessing if I do some small sacrifice. Is there a blessing if I do a big sacrifice? Of course. Does that mean I’m weak? No. It means there is a bigger picture that I can’t see right now, but God does. There are all kinds of ways to show God you trust Him.

I think Joseph is the most beautiful example of what it means to be husband. He lived with the Immaculate Conception and God Incarnate. Jesus was his Son, yet God. But Joseph raised Jesus.

What a hard job! “Joseph, your son will be the son of God, you will raise him as your own.” Jesus as a devout Jew, knew the commandments of honoring His parents. How perfectly humbling it must have been to be Joseph, Jesus would honor him as His own father.

 

[PennyinCanada]

One other thing I have trouble understanding is why people in the Catholic Church who believe in this “man head of woman” view agree with women being bosses in the workplace or country leaders etc as they are the “head” there.

Marriage between a man and a woman is a covenant, their family a ‘little church’ where Christ is the head. What you are seeing in the Catholic model is that the man is the boss and you’ve forgotten that these are 2 people who love each other and will come before God for their decisions. This is not a boss/employee relationship. The husband is to lay down his life for his wife and family.

God desires Catholics to be in all arenas of the work place. They are the salt and light of the world. This is a whole different dynamic.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think Joseph is the most beautiful example of what it means to be husband. He lived with the Immaculate Conception and God Incarnate. Jesus was his Son, yet God. But Joseph raised Jesus.

What a hard job! “Joseph, your son will be the son of God, you will raise him as your own.” Jesus as a devout Jew, knew the commandments of honoring His parents. How perfectly humbling it must have been to be Joseph, Jesus would honor him as His own father.

I imagine it must have been quite intimidating for Joseph, as head of his household. Imagine having God Incarnate and the Immaculate Conception at the breakfast table with you and realizing that you are responsible for their well-being.

 

[LightBound]

So,it sounds like most Catholics follow a Complementarian view with the male being head and leader and the woman being follower,passive and nurturing.
This,however,seems to limit male female gender roles to quite limited,with everyone who follows this model having a similar-almost cookie cutter- personally with the only differences being external look/appearance and “superficial” interests Egne woman might like football and another might like iceskating etc…

If everyone was this “traditional way” then it sort of takes the flavour out of life,the vast myriad of different personality types,and every woman would have to adopt a personality type of nurturer and passive.

This Complamentarian view seems to me to be a good marriage model for couples who are incompatible,have greatly different views,or who argue alot but I don’t understand why it has to be also for couples who are already harmonious,work things out as equals,and compromise.

One other thing I have trouble understanding is why people in the Catholic Church who believe in this “man head of woman” view agree with women being bosses in the workplace or country leaders etc as they are the “head” there.

Once again, I think some lines have been blurred when it comes to your last paragraph. Nowhere in authentic Catholic teaching or Catholic scripture interpretation does it say that man is the head of woman. What St Paul does say is that the husband is the head of the wife. Now, considering we have 3 concurrent threads going on about this and all the usual posters have chimed in with their opinions (some in line with Church teaching, others still clinging to their fundamental or Anglican roots), those complementary roles you speak of are considered to be within the domestic Church (the family, a marriage, etc) and not out in the world, the community, the workforce, etc. You will still have some, likely those who have a fundamentalist bent, say that women shouldn’t get an education past high school or they should never work outside the home, or some other such nonsense. The Church doesn’t teach that and in fact, canonized a married mother that was a medical doctor. However, some people still cannot accept full Church teaching on things they just don’t agree with and choose to serve themselves and others from the cafeteria line of teachings and beliefs.

 

[dedo]

So,it sounds like most Catholics follow a Complementarian view with the male being head and leader and the woman being follower,passive and nurturing.
This,however,seems to limit male female gender roles to quite limited,with everyone who follows this model having a similar-almost cookie cutter- personally with the only differences being external look/appearance and “superficial” interests Egne woman might like football and another might like iceskating etc…

If everyone was this “traditional way” then it sort of takes the flavour out of life,the vast myriad of different personality types,and every woman would have to adopt a personality type of nurturer and passive.

This Complamentarian view seems to me to be a good marriage model for couples who are incompatible,have greatly different views,or who argue alot but I don’t understand why it has to be also for couples who are already harmonious,work things out as equals,and compromise.

One other thing I have trouble understanding is why people in the Catholic Church who believe in this “man head of woman” view agree with women being bosses in the workplace or country leaders etc as they are the “head” there.

I don’t think you can look at the opinions of forum members and assume that applies to “most Catholics”. For example, although I have not read all the posts, I doubt that the majority of the women posters on Catholic Answers agree with the idea of the submissive wife.

My reading of the scripture is that the husband has a sacrificial obligation to lead as Christ lead. That means being willing to give up something for the benefit of his family. It also means trying to set the best example that he can. I don’t think it means that he gets his way on every issue.

Some people seem to focus on “getting their way”, and ignore the sacrificial obligation of the husband. That view is wrong.

How does it play out in practical matters? I prefer a standard Tarzan, Jane, Cheetah model of marriage. Thus, instead of saying “yes dear” in a whiny, weak, secular, fashion – I deepen my voice and say “yes dear” like just as the lord of the jungle would. The only problem I am having is with Cheetah (our dog), who keeps biting me.

Seriously, most couples compromise and work things out between them and that is how they “submit to each other”.

If the woman is more outgoing and a natural leader then she will likely take the first step in areas where she has expertise, and there is nothing wrong with that.

An example outside of marriage that is intriguing in the secular world is the relationship between Queen Elizabeth I and her assistant, William Cecil. Elizabeth’s reign is considered to be one of the most successful monarchies in the history of England. On every issue, Elizabeth naturally had the final say as Queen. However, Cecil devoted his life to service to Queen and country and was Elizabeth’s most trusted counselor.

Was Cecil a leader? In his time he was in the top 10 most powerful and influential people in the world. However, he never sought the lime light, or “getting his way”. Cecil was a leader in every sense of word.

Leading is about service, and inspiring others.

It is not about “getting your way”.

 

[marymary1975]

I have seen more posts, not only in this forum, but in other Christian forums , on wifely submission. It seems that there are men who think that the command in Ephesians is:

Wives, submit to your husbands.
Husbands, make sure your wives submit to you.

Instead of:

Wives, submit to your husbands
Husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the Church

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this too. Sad but true

 

[marymary1975]

I don’t think you can look at the opinions of forum members and assume that applies to “most Catholics”. For example, although I have not read all the posts, I doubt that the majority of the women posters on Catholic Answers agree with the idea of the submissive wife.

My reading of the scripture is that the husband has a sacrificial obligation to lead as Christ lead. That means being willing to give up something for the benefit of his family. It also means trying to set the best example that he can. I don’t think it means that he gets his way on every issue.

Some people seem to focus on “getting their way”, and ignore the sacrificial obligation of the husband. That view is wrong.

How does it play out in practical matters? I prefer a standard Tarzan, Jane, Cheetah model of marriage. Thus, instead of saying “yes dear” in a whiny, weak, secular, fashion – I deepen my voice and say “yes dear” like just as the lord of the jungle would. The only problem I am having is with Cheetah (our dog), who keeps biting me.

Seriously, most couples compromise and work things out between them and that is how they “submit to each other”.

If the woman is more outgoing and a natural leader then she will likely take the first step in areas where she has expertise, and there is nothing wrong with that.

An example outside of marriage that is intriguing in the secular world is the relationship between Queen Elizabeth I and her assistant, William Cecil. Elizabeth’s reign is considered to be one of the most successful monarchies in the history of England. On every issue, Elizabeth naturally had the final say as Queen. However, Cecil devoted his life to service to Queen and country and was Elizabeth’s most trusted counselor.

Was Cecil a leader? In his time he was in the top 10 most powerful and influential people in the world. However, he never sought the lime light, or “getting his way”. Cecil was a leader in every sense of word.

Leading is about service, and inspiring others.

It is not about “getting your way”.

this is right on spot. The husband should lead imitating how Jesus lead his church…by service.

 

[marymary1975]

Do you consider Mary to be weak and passive? When Joseph told her she must travel on the back of a donkey while very pregnant for a long journey, she submitted. When he awoke her in the middle of the night because he had a dream and was told to flee to Egypt, she didn’t debate him. She grabbed the baby and they left. Sometimes there is no time for discussion and someone needs to make a decision. I’m positive Joseph never abused or took advantage of Mary, and I’m positive she was a submissive wife.

I think what has happened is people are looking at the way things can go wrong and are trying to fight those wrongs by using another wrong. Instead of telling husbands that their wives would be more than happy to allow him to lead her if he was being the Christlike leader he should be, we are telling wives that if your husband isn’t upholding their role then she doesn’t need to uphold hers. Two wrongs don’t make a right anywhere in life. And I think sometimes people forget that we aren’t only supposed to love our neighbor but also our enemy. We don’t just do good for our husbands because they deserve it, we do good for them even when they don’t deserve it. Catholic marriage is sacramental. St. Paul wrote a very good guide for married couples that is all too often distorted. He didn’t write just one, but several, and they should all be read and followed. St. Paul wasn’t the sexist I’ve heard many people make him out to be. He was very clear that husbands were to lead, but only after dying for their wives. I would much rather be lead than to lay down my entire life. Following does not show weakness. If it did, all of us who follow Church teaching are weak.

Actually if you read casta cannubis in its totality, it has several circumstances in which if the husband does not live to his role the wife does not have to submit so is not correct yo say the wife always and under every circumstance has to submit.

 

[Sarcelle]

Actually if you read casta cannubis in its totality, it has several circumstances in which if the husband does not live to his role the wife does not have to submit so is not correct yo say the wife always and under every circumstance has to submit.

I agree. One good example is if the husband wants to abandon Christianity. Should the wife follow his lead?