Does Catholic theology contradict the Bible regarding sin?

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No they aren’t the same thing, if born of God means regenerated. One is regenerated in baptism and never again (baptism can never be repeated), but one can fall from and re-enter the state of grace many times.

I know it can’t be taken out of the context and 1J2 says he wrote it so that we wouldn’t sin but IF we sin Jesus intercedes for us…but that doesn’t make the problem go away

As to mortal and venial sins, does he really make that distinction? He says if someone has committed a venial sin we can give him life by praying for him. Now that is contrary to Catholic teaching since a venial sin doesn’t take away supernatural life. So John’s venial sin seems to be Catholic mortal sin. And John’s mortal sin seems to be something for which there is absolutely no remedy - he doesn’t say “let him go to confession” or “pray he goes to confession” but simply that there’s no point in praying for him. Reminds me of Hebrews 6, it’s impossible for them to return…

Now answer me that one:)
Fin,… if you’re looking to clarify a question you have, please state a single question in a simple way.

If you’re not satisfied with an answer, it’s most likely that your question was not understood in the first place.

As usual with human beings, we must look to “changing ourselves” and not others, to perfect the world (and our seeking for knowledge).

What is your BASE (essential and simple) question?
 
[fineca;1905878]The rude words: it’s ok don’t worry.
I do understand Catholic teaching- I am very much a Catholic, I’m just playing the devil’s advocate and pushing you to get a satisfactory response which I’m not sure I’ve received yet.
The difference between being born of God (if this is equal to being regenerated)
In one sense yes. Faith and baptism are the part of our intinial justification where we are first regenerated, baptism brings us into the family of God like circumcision did in the OT, see Col 2:11-12, John 3:5, Titus 3:5.
is that it happens once, at baptism, whereas the state of grace is what follows baptism and it can be lost and regained etc, but you’re not “born again again”.
So according to C teaching if born of God means regenerated the C living with the gf is indeed born of God.
The Catholic living with his girlfriend is no longer born of God since he has put himself outside of the family of God. Justification isn’t merely a legal forensic declarative act but one of a Father and sons (and daughters) who become part of His family through baptism.
As to St.Paul, I don’t see how your comments really answered my questions…
Again I ask: is there a Catholic Bible commentary online?
I’m not sure, sorry. www.usccb.org has commentaries in the footnotes but the aren’t always explicit.

see next post…
 
[fineca;1906943]No they aren’t the same thing, if born of God means regenerated. One is regenerated in baptism and never again (baptism can never be repeated), but one can fall from and re-enter the state of grace many times.
Born of God could be anyone who is in the family of God. Again, baptism isn’t a magic act that makes you saved. It gives you grace, but you can also deny the grace by your feee will.
 
[fineca];1905878]

Is. 53:4-11
Since we mentioned imputed righteousness, let me ask another question about penal substitution which is very much related. I think the RCC considers it a heresy but doesn’t Is.53 clearly teach it?
I don’t see how Is 53 can teach the notion of a legal forensic act of justification. If anything the OT and NT teach God is our Father, we have sonship and become just as a son or daughter and are imputed not just declared righteous. We don’t just get declared just, we actually become righteous as 2 Peter 1:4 says…“we partake of His divine nature” and become part of His family, so when you use the term “born of God” that means becoming part of His family, first by baptism and then in a process of obedience. The Catholic guy who is shacking up with his family has with his own volition “left the family” by his free act of disobedience.

Penal substitution theory denies the efficacy of Chirst’s sufferings as to make them meaningless. Catholicism teaches Christ’s sufferings were efficacious, Robert Sungenis has a good article on this…

"That is because Catholic theology is basically a theology about suffering. Everything from the atonement of Christ, to our concepts of the communion of saints, Mary, the treasury of merit, intercessory prayer and fasting, victim souls, stigmatists, indulgences, purgatory, the Mass, justification, sanctification, etc, is all concerned with suffering and what it does to appease God and preserve His honor so that His blessings and grace can flow to us. No amount of suffering is wasted in Catholic theology. Every ounce is pressed into service for the saving of souls. Understanding the nature of physical suffering and the God who requires appeasement and honor (which Gibson’s film seems to have grasped at least on an elementary level), is the cornerstone of all Catholic theology. Without it, nothing else in Catholicism will make sense. Protestants, by and large, have little room for suffering in their soteriology, at least not in the vicarious sense. They may use their individual suffering to grow, or may wish it all away with health and wealth TV gospels, but they would never think of it as meritorious toward saving a soul or appeasing God.

**"Luther and Calvin believed Christ’s passion was a legal payment for sin, otherwise known as “penal substitution.” **Since Protestant theology believes salvation is forensic, then the atonement must be a legal transaction. Hence, as God requires the legal payment of eternal damnation for sin, Christ had to undergo its legal equivalent, while his physical suffering was of little consequence.

Part and parcel with the **Protestant concept of “penal substitution” is the idea that the Father punished Christ because Christ, by divine design, actually became the essence of sin. Since Christ was laden with sin, God had to reject Him, and punish Him as if He were an eternally damned sinner. This understanding comes from their innovative interpretation of 2 Cor 5:21 (“he became sin for us”), whereas all the patristic exegesis before them understood the clause as referring only to Christ becoming a “sin offering,” not sin itself, even as the corollary passage, Romans 8:3, stipulates. **In fact, for Catholic theology, it was precisely the fact that Christ was totally without the stain of sin, whether personally or vicariously, that He was able to offer Himself as an appeasing sacrifice. A victim laden with sin, even if it were only vicarious, could never be a propitiatory sacrifice, which is precisely why Luther repudiated the idea of propitiation and Catholic theology altogether. The two theologies could not be any further apart.
Having been confronted with the distorted views of Luther and Calvin, quite appropriately does the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia state:
…The second mistake is the tendency to treat the Passion of Christ as being literally a case of vicarious punishment. This is at best a distorted view of the truth that His atoning Sacrifice took the place of our punishment, and that He took upon Himself the sufferings and death that were due to our sins.

The Council of Trent on the Atonement:

Against all this bluster, of course, is the Council of Trent - the greatest dogmatic council with which God has ever blessed the Catholic Church. The Council states Christ “made satisfaction for us to God the Father” (DS 799), and “Christ Jesus Who has satisfied for our sins” (DS 904), but never teaches that Christ paid a full eternal penalty for sin. Logically, if He had, then God would have no right to punish anyone in hell, since He could not, in justice, exact two eternal punishments for the same sin."

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/christiology/gibson-atonement3.htm
 
No they aren’t the same thing, if born of God means regenerated. One is regenerated in baptism and never again (baptism can never be repeated), but one can fall from and re-enter the state of grace many times.

I know it can’t be taken out of the context and 1J2 says he wrote it so that we wouldn’t sin but IF we sin Jesus intercedes for us…but that doesn’t make the problem go away

As to mortal and venial sins, does he really make that distinction? He says if someone has committed a venial sin we can give him life by praying for him. Now that is contrary to Catholic teaching since a venial sin doesn’t take away supernatural life. So John’s venial sin seems to be Catholic mortal sin. And John’s mortal sin seems to be something for which there is absolutely no remedy - he doesn’t say “let him go to confession” or “pray he goes to confession” but simply that there’s no point in praying for him. Reminds me of Hebrews 6, it’s impossible for them to return…

Now answer me that one:)
How about the prodigal son? He was in mortal sin [so-to-speak], yet realized that he needed forgiveness, repentance and love, yet he returned?
When Jesus intercedes for us the sin is gone but not always the problem for we also have to cooperate ourselves with the damages we’ve done through that sin. Even if one is in mortal sin doesn’t mean God won’t accept them back if they by God’s grace repent and come back to Him through obedience and love.
 
Born of God:
If a son leaves the father/family or gets disowned, he’s still born of that father/family, he doesn’t cease to be born but ceases to be a part of the family. So the Catholic living in sin should be considered born of God, but the passage says it’s impossible.

Is 53: it seems to teach that God put the punishment due to us upon Jesus…doesn’t it?

Prodigal son: sure I admit mortal sin is biblical, my question was if the passage in question was in keeping with the Catholic understanding of mortal and venial sin or contradicting it, that is, 1.John 5:16… do you have any biblical examples of the catholic concept of venial sin?
  1. Pet. 1:4 was twisted, it doesn’t say we become actually righteous when we’re justified or that then we become partakers of the divine nature, instead it says: “that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” so it’s a potential future thing not something already happened to the justified.
 
[fineca;1909094]Born of God:
If a son leaves the father/family or gets disowned, he’s still born of that father/family, he doesn’t cease to be born but ceases to be a part of the family. So the Catholic living in sin should be considered born of God, but the passage says it’s impossible.
You get into trouble if you only look at one passage or chapter. Where you are incorrect is the prodigal son, in the eyes of the father,** DID** cease to become part of the family by his own actions. Matthew 10:22, Jesus said “if” we endure to the end we will be saved. It a conditional statement of “if” not because we will.
Is 53: it seems to teach that God put the punishment due to us upon Jesus…doesn’t it?
Well, no not to the extent that Christ bore our sins so we don’t have to suffer, does that make sense to you just from a practicle standpoint?
Christ died for us to open the gates of heaven so that we could be with God, Christ was a perfect oblation (sacrifice) to the Father for our sins, yes, however the penal substitution theory says that Christ took ALL of our sins even being SIN HIMSELF yet Christ being God, having a divine nature CAN’T be sin. They say he went to hell and took our place which is irrational and illogical let alone theologically incorrect. If Christ became sin then by logical extention God the Father (who can’t accept any sin in heaven Rev 21:27) would have to reject Christ and send Him to hell because He literally became sin in the penal substitution view.

And Is 53 isn’t saying Christ died so that we don’t have to worry about any consequences of our own sin and it doesn’t say Christ will die on the cross therefore all sin by the elect isn’t sin in God’s eyes and they aren’t responsible for that sin. If that were true, the elect would be able to freely sin since Christ already paid the full price and predestined them to heaven for He went to hell their place; that’s the teaching of penal substitution and completely wrong. 🙂
Prodigal son: sure I admit mortal sin is biblical, my question was if the passage in question was in keeping with the Catholic understanding of mortal and venial sin or contradicting it, that is, 1.John 5:16… do you have any biblical examples of the catholic concept of venial sin?
The bible is repelete with sinners who sin. Romans 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Certainly
all in the distributive sense means we have sin even the slightest amount. Romans 5 says we are born with original sin from Adam.
  1. Pet. 1:4 was twisted, it doesn’t say we become actually righteous when we’re justified or that then we become partakers of the divine nature, instead it says: “that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” so it’s a potential future thing not something already happened to the justified.
Yes it is speaking of partaking of God’s nature, that when God infuses His life within our souls we then have the means to escape corruption in this world. The “because” is a matter of fact word saying that the righteous or justified already have partaken in God’s divine nature.
It goes along with Titus 3:5…
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, **by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, **
This is speaking of the regenerative power of baptism “washing” is a reference to matter used which is water, regeneration is the Holy Spirit regenerating and renewing us.
 
How we define our terms has led to different theologies.

Both Protestants and Catholics can agree that concupiscence *remains *in a justified person.

IF, as Luther did, we define concupiscence *as Original Sin *itself; then we must conclude Christ merely covers over this remaining, non-punishable Original Sin. And we can confidently say, “There is now no condemnation in Christ.” (Because concupiscence, Original Sin, is covered over).

IF, as Catholics do, we define concupiscence as a non-punishable, *inclination to sin *that remains after our guilt from Original Sin is washed away; we can also say, “There is now no condemnation in Christ.” (Because Original Sin is washed away and remaining concupiscence is not sin).

Concerning your quotations from Romans:

We must not take a verse out of the context of the passage.

Paul is using the personal pronoun “I” but the pronoun isn’t necessarily referring to Paul.

“Paul speaks in the person of humanity before the Law was given,” as a footnote in the New Jerusalem Bible reminds us about Romans 7:9–“Once, when there was no Law, I used to be alive;…” there was no Law before Moses. Was Paul alive before Moses? No. The “I” does not refer to Paul.

Romans 7:9 continues–“but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died.” Again, Paul didn’t die when Moses brought the commandments from the mount, the “I” doesn’t refer to Paul.

Romans 7:11—“because sin,…beguiled me and, by means of it, killed me.” The me doesn’t refer to Paul personally.

Romans 7:13—“sin…caused my death.” You get the pattern—Paul is using personal pronouns to mean humanity.

Again from the footnote for the next verses till Chapter 8–“Paul now speaks in the person of humanity still under the empire of sin and not yet justified, whereas in ch. 8 he speaks in the name of the justified Christian with the gift of the Spirit who, nevertheless, is conscious of an inward struggle while on earth.”

I believe this passage is mishandled by Protestants reading it in a different manner than Catholics; and, try as you might, going back to Scripture for a Catholic understanding of sin from a biblical perspective will lead you to this Protestant conundrum: 2 Thessalonians 2:15, which I will paraphrase: “IT AIN’T SCRIPTURE ALONE, JACK!”
 
Prodigal son: but that’s what I said, he DID cease to be a member of the family but he DID NOT cease to be a son of the father, (my son was dead etc, he was dead but he was still his son).

Romans 7: Paul asked who would deliver him from this body of death…thanks be to God through Christ, for there is no condemnation…so he was talking about himself, and just before that he said that it’s the SIN that dwells in him that does the bad things, so again I ask, why do we say the inclination is not SIN if Paul clearly calls it SIN?
 
Although I don’t agree with all the footnotes in the New Jerusalem Bible, I do believe there is merit in reading Paul’s personal pronouns in Romans 7 as referring to both himself and humanity since clearly at verse 7 humanity is being meant. As to whether this continues till the end of the chapter–is obviously something you’re not open to.

The reason why Catholic theologians don’t call concupiscence sin is because they say it isn’t a ‘proper’ sin. Here’s what Ott has to say about it from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 110: “The Council of Trent teaches that through Baptism everything is taken away which is a true and proper sin, and that the concupiscence which remains behind after Baptism for the moral proving is called sin in an improper sense only.”

What’s a proper sin? Well, remember that one of the elements of sin is deliberate consent. Being tempted is not a sin. Succumbing to temptation is.

The Bible is not a systematic theology book. It uses words in different shades of meaning and needs to be read in context with the Church’s teachings and Tradition or we run the risk of getting all bent out of shape when someone doesn’t read the same passage as we do.

You’re not going to find all the answers biblically because all the answers are to be found in both Scripture and Tradition.

Alot of smart people have thought these questions through alot more thoroughly than what you or I have done. Let’s use them as a resource. Why not get a copy of Ott’s book?
 
now that was a great reference! I have Ott’s book but that quotation was very helpful, thanks!
 
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