Does Catholicism agree with Orthodoxy on this point?

[josephback]

The point is this: That man has an essentially good nature, but turns himself to evil by choice.

I’ve been reading Augustine and he seems to agree, but I was just wondering where this is addressed in the Catechism. The Original Sin section? Thanks.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

By choice? I think, and could be wrong, that any true christian including Catholics and Greek Orthodox would agree that man allowed and continues to allow himself to be influenced/deceived by the deceiver. Does he do it by choice? If i had my choice I would have never been influenced by the legion and would have never fallen. That was not Gods will for me or any one I have met so far in my life whether or not they believe it.

While some men may chose to do evil for the sake of doing evil, I believe most just do what they feel they have to at the time. I have met a lot of very sinful people in my life and I can’t remember one that was actively trying to be evil. Lost, confused, led astray…yes. A choice to be evil is a rarity if it happens at all even among those who proclaim to choose evil and try to make it clear they are evil…in reality most of them are scared and without faith. Imagine life without the Lord to guide you. Every choice you made go back and make it again without his guidance and imagine where you would be now. That is the scary place some people you would call evil are in.

But we do have to justify all those prisons and lawsuits now don’t we? You cannot serve two masters and society serves money. If our society serves any master other than God it leaves our enemy a easy opening to deceive. Let me ask you if you were lost would you want men to help you to accept the Lord and rehabilitate you or would you have them lock you up and destroy your family and their finances because you are evil and not worthy (I have never been convicted of a crime btw only victimized)? Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

If you don’t judge you won’t be judged. I try not to judge others for judging others because I have judged others also… but make no mistake we were all wrong and many lives are being ruined because society believes some people are just evil and deserve what they get. Well I guess we as society deserve what we get in return for our judging of others now don’t we? Do we deserve to all be locked up for how we respond to that return?

But we were warned! Our father left us a paper trail to follow. The “angel of light”/ the evil one/ the wicked one was left in control of the world. I personally believe Archangel Michael did not lock him up yet and we still have a long journey ahead of us. Remember that the Son of God gave those who know him dominion over demons and devils. We are not to rejoice because of this. Rejoice because your name is written in the book of life. Defend your inheritance not your pride.

If anyone would like to debate this or show me an error in my thinking I would be grateful.

EDIT: I do not believe it is God’s will that we be influenced by demons. I believe we cannot understand in this life why it is not God’s will that we are never influenced by demons.Big difference. But just ask St. Paul…God sometimes in his infinite wisdom sees fit to give the fallen angels the ability to mess with people for various reasons that can be just as good as they can be bad. I think it was something along the lines of power is made perfect in weakness in his case but I could be wrong. Gotta read more i know…

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I’ve been reading Augustine and he seems to agree, but I was just wondering where this is addressed in the Catechism. The Original Sin section?

Perhaps the Catholic position should first be understood before attempting to compare and contrast with the Orthodox view.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Then perhaps you could enlighten us on the official Catholic view? I would like to think I summed it up pretty well but I could very easily be wrong as I haven’t been involved with the Church enough in my life yet.

I think as with many things there are certain points that people within the Catholic church will disagree on but it seems we are still held at least somewhat accountable even after being saved for falling regardless of how and why.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Then perhaps you could enlighten us on the official Catholic view? I would like to think I summed it up pretty well but I could very easily be wrong as I haven’t been involved with the Church enough in my life yet.

By choice? I think, and could be wrong …

Welcome to the forum.

My advice was intended for the OP.

That said, the referenced post did not appear as if it were intended to be a clear articulation of the Catholic position, nor did it seem to contain such (especially given the intro). If you feel it does, perhaps you could enlighten us, as well.

In the meantime, as the notional question relates in part to Original Sin, I’ll offer that while the Augustian view is widely cited as the “Catholic view”, the Catechetical view is closer in fact to a more Eastern understanding as shared by Eastern Catholics generally, and Orthodox more specifically.

Further, as more closely related to the genesis question of the OP, God created us in His likeness and image. As God is love, we are naturally called to goodness. This is an essential tenet of faith. Without first understanding this point, the Fall and the Plan of Salvation are completely out of context.

 

[R_C]

Catechism: The Fall

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. …]

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

Just like the Original Sin caused the loss of sanctifying grace, every sin that causes the loss of sanctifying grace involves, among other things, deliberate consent. Because man was created very good, and to teach otherwise is heresy.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Catechism: The Fall

Just like the Original Sin caused the loss of sanctifying grace, every sin that causes the loss of sanctifying grace involves, among other things, deliberate consent. Because man was created very good, and to teach otherwise is heresy.

Wait…where did deliberate consent come from? If a man knew the truth of the situation he would never concede any ground to the enemy. The truth is masked and it is based on faith at that point…which is the basis of the test as far as i can see but I could be wrong.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Welcome to the forum.

My advice was intended for the OP.

That said, the referenced post did not appear as if it were intended to be a clear articulation of the Catholic position, nor did it seem to contain such (especially given the intro). If you feel it does, perhaps you could enlighten us, as well.

In the meantime, as the notional question relates in part to Original Sin, I’ll offer that while the Augustian view is widely cited as the “Catholic view”, the Catechetical view is closer in fact to a more Eastern understanding as shared by Eastern Catholics generally, and Orthodox more specifically.

Further, as more closely related to the genesis question of the OP, God created us in His likeness and image. As God is love, we are naturally called to goodness. This is an essential tenet of faith. Without first understanding this point, the Fall and the Plan of Salvation are completely out of context.

Thanks for the welcome. I’m here to expand my knowledge and provoke thought not to insult but I have a habit of overstepping my bounds and not realizing it.

Anyways I went on to say 1 line after that that I do feel it is the opinion of the Church…and not just the Catholic one. Who in the Church would disagree with what I say and why? I need a logical explanation for how my thinking is wrong before I can properly correct it. If no one can provide one then maybe there is less to correct than I feared.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Welcome to the forum.

My advice was intended for the OP.

That said, the referenced post did not appear as if it were intended to be a clear articulation of the Catholic position, nor did it seem to contain such (especially given the intro). If you feel it does, perhaps you could enlighten us, as well.

In the meantime, as the notional question relates in part to Original Sin, I’ll offer that while the Augustian view is widely cited as the “Catholic view”, the Catechetical view is closer in fact to a more Eastern understanding as shared by Eastern Catholics generally, and Orthodox more specifically.

Further, as more closely related to the genesis question of the OP, God created us in His likeness and image. As God is love, we are naturally called to goodness. This is an essential tenet of faith. Without first understanding this point, the Fall and the Plan of Salvation are completely out of context.

Also what does it mean that God created us in his likeness and in his image? Do you feel that it might lead people astray to ask them if they want to know what God looks like and hand them a mirror? Especially children? It is part of satans agenda to make us think we are God or are somehow like God.

We were created in God’s image but i swear a lot of these Sunday school teachers have no idea what that means. However since you find it critical to first understand the point I’m sure you also find it critical to explain further to avoid a potential disaster right?

If my knowledge is really as limited as you seem to believe you will have no problem showing me my error. You will also easily correct yours or show me how I’m wrong for thinking that you needed too.

Also you should look at what you quoted me as saying. These things apply to everyone including you yet you judged me for simply stating the obvious…Are you sure you should be guiding people spiritually? You make statements but make no attempt to back them up at all. A wise man knows that most who listen are not as wise so he has to explain things in depth because things that are elementary to him are advanced to others.

I am seeking truth how about you? Do you seek to feel enlightened without actual enlightenment? If so you should easily see why that’s a bad plan. Many in the Church endorse that plan but it is a bad plan. You do have to understand what you’re saying beyond a textbook definition of it. It’s the difference between an A on the test and a successful project at work.

Or do you have a lamp hiding under a bush?

You can see how it is nearly impossible to tell the difference…

 

[R_C]

Wait…where did deliberate consent come from? If a man knew the truth of the situation he would never concede any ground to the enemy. The truth is masked and it is based on faith at that point…which is the basis of the test as far as i can see but I could be wrong.

Your “if statement” is incorrect. Only Christ - who is God - and the Blessed Virgin - full of grace and preserved from the stain of Original Sin - could know the truth of a situation and still never concede any ground, remaining perfectly sinless throughout their lives.

All other men who fall know the truth of the situation, willfully concede ground to the enemy, and deliberately consent to sin.

You remind me of St. Peter, who was so strong in his faith that he told Jesus face to face: “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you”.

That, unfortunately, is called pride.

Thus the Lord, in his infinite kindness, told Him:

I tell you the truth, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.

And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and you, being once converted, confirm your brothers.

Sin, in order to be sin that takes away sanctifying grace, must always involve full knowledge that something is a grave offense to God and deliberate consent to still go ahead and commit that grave offense.

As a Catholic, I suppose you know that this basic truth is written all over the Catechism. It is truly worth reviewing. Emphases are mine.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

 

[R_C]

Also what does it mean that God created us in his likeness and in his image? Do you feel that it might lead people astray to ask them if they want to know what God looks like and hand them a mirror? Especially children? It is part of satans agenda to make us think we are God or are somehow like God.

Again, your statement rests on an erroneous basis. It is Christ’s agenda to make us like God. Read the writings of the Church Fathers.

“God became what we are in order to make us what he is himself …] If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods.” s. Polycarp

“Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life.” s. Athanasius of Alexandria

“For he has given them power to become the sons of God’ [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of god, we have also been made gods.” s. Augustine of Hippo

Remember the words of Christ:

he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken

Satan’s agenda is to make us strive for self-exaltation to the point of saying: there is no God: I am God! It is self-love taken to the extent that becomes an idolatry of self. A Christian, on the other hand, knows that he is a spec of dust and utter nothingness, and that it is Christ who, “lifted up, draws all men towards him”. We do not and cannot forgive ourselves, save ourselves, glorify ourselves, or divinize ourselves. To think any of these is a grave error. But an even greater error would be to not acknowledge that these are the great merits of Christ for us, and the great promises that He has given us.

The soul of every human being is created in the image and likeness of God. To us Christ said: “be perfect, like your heavenly Father is perfect”. We are called to renounce self so that we may let Christ accomplish His grand work in us: that we become members of the body of Christ, and that we may repeat with the apostle: “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me”.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Again, your statement rests on an erroneous basis. It is Christ’s agenda to make us like God. Read the writings of the Church Fathers.

Remember the words of Christ:

Satan’s agenda is to make us strive for self-exaltation to the point of saying: there is no God: I am God! It is self-love taken to the extent that becomes an idolatry of self. A Christian, on the other hand, knows that he is a spec of dust and utter nothingness, and that it is Christ who, “lifted up, draws all men towards him”. We do not and cannot forgive ourselves, save ourselves, glorify ourselves, or divinize ourselves. To think any of these is a grave error. But an even greater error would be to not acknowledge that these are the great merits of Christ for us, and the great promises that He has given us.

The soul of every human being is created in the image and likeness of God. To us Christ said: “be perfect, like your heavenly Father is perfect”. We are called to renounce self so that we may let Christ accomplish His grand work in us: that we become members of the body of Christ, and that we may repeat with the apostle: “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me”.

Sometimes there are two ways to take things. This time there is three. Satan’s fall originated in a sinful pride that made him want to be God. When we were tempted in the garden the snake said if you eat it you will be like God. So far we have a very very large number of Gods creations falling because of an undue desire to be like God. The results of this are reflected in peoples thought processes in all of society.

Obviously you are right. It is only right after full clarification and that is what you provide. I fear that a lot of people are lead astray from a lack of clarity.

And your 100% right about the definition of Gods image. We reflect him. Not off of glass though…

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Your “if statement” is incorrect. Only Christ - who is God - and the Blessed Virgin - full of grace and preserved from the stain of Original Sin - could know the truth of a situation and still never concede any ground, remaining perfectly sinless throughout their lives.

All other men who fall know the truth of the situation, willfully concede ground to the enemy, and deliberately consent to sin.

You remind me of St. Peter, who was so strong in his faith that he told Jesus face to face: “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you”.

That, unfortunately, is called pride.

Thus the Lord, in his infinite kindness, told Him:

Sin, in order to be sin that takes away sanctifying grace, must always involve full knowledge that something is a grave offense to God and deliberate consent to still go ahead and commit that grave offense.

As a Catholic, I suppose you know that this basic truth is written all over the Catechism. It is truly worth reviewing. Emphases are mine.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

You gave me a lot to think about. Great post. My faith is no where near the level of St. Peters and I know that’s not what you meant. Anyone reading should realize this gives more credibility to what he told me not less. I have read it myself of course but that’s why I provoke discussion. Let me leave you with something to consider.

In the bubble in time that an individual falls he or she is not even 1% aware of who they are conceding ground to and what that legion has caused in even his or her life let alone the rest of history. They may have heard it and read it but it does not hit them fully or even a little(best way to put it). They surely can’t understand a measurable amount of the pain this has caused our Lord. If they did understand, do you think any of them would still fall?
I still feel there are no evil people just deceived and lost people maybe that’s idealistic though(Maybe not!!!). The legion has been at this for a long time…We are far from the first ones in the hot seat. I don’t have a problem with the game just sometimes I can’t help but have a problem with the way we are playing it.

Thanks for the response I think I will stick around these forums for a while.

 

[R_C]

So far we have a very very large number of Gods creations falling because of an undue desire to be like God.

Excellent point. However, you have to factor in an extra variable: the fact that Satan is a liar, the father of all lies, in which there is no truth.

His temptations are just this: lies.

Now consider this: if you promise something false, there can only be three ways in which it can be false:

• because it cannot be
• because it already is
• because it will already be

The adversary, being the best (worst?) liar, is able to combine these things in one lie.

Consider the temptation of the Original Sin: “you will be like gods”.

What had God said before the creation of man?

Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves

In retrospective, now that Christ has come and revealed the fullness of God’s promise, what did God want to do about man? Did He not want to bring to perfection and glorify our humanity through Christ, the Word that became flesh? Was not already God’s promise to man: “you will be like gods”?

Therefore this, from one aspect, already was, from another aspect, would already be…but from the third aspect, the worst, one…it could not be: because it was not the apple from the tree that would make them “like gods” or give them eternal life, God alone would do that through the tree! God knew that to disobey Him by preferring to seek perfection through a mere object of creation would bring true death, which is the spiritual death.

Now consider the temptation that Satan did to Christ, the God-Man, the new Adam.

“[all kingdoms of the world] I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me.”. What a void promise! Because it could not be (as the Doctor of the Church St. Jerome writes, he was “arrogant and superb, speaking with ostentation: in fact, he cannot give all kingdoms, for we know that many holy men were made kings by God”), because it already was (“Through him all things were made” …] ), and because “it would already be”:

God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance …] to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

The desire to be like God was not the root of the disobedience: the root of the disobedience was distrust in God. Eve fell because she trusted more in Satan than in God. Adam fell because he trusted more in Eve than in God.

Christ, however, did not fall, because his human nature was completely surrendered to his divine nature, and as the living Christ He was not ashamed to tell God the Father: “I am your servant, your servant and the son of your handmaid”, “not what I want, but what you want”. Christ the man trusted in God with the fullness of His humanity, showing us an example that we can all follow, giving us “a burden that is light”. By this filial trust, then, we become God’s children, one with Christ as members of His body, “we no longer live but Christ lives in us”…then a soul can truly overcome evil with good, for every action, word, and thought will implicitly carry the following admonishment:

It is written, ‘You must not tempt the Lord your God’

 

[R_C]

If they did understand, do you think any of them would still fall?

This is a great mystery.

The angels, who surpassed in perfection all creatures and knew everything, understood and still fell. Nothing seems to indicate that us, lesser beings (Ps 8:5), would not do the same.

At the same time, Christ pleads forgiveness to the Father repeatedly on the very basis of our imperfect knowledge.

If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin;

Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they are doing.

However, one truth is undeniable and unshakeable: to sin and fall is still the result of a free, deliberate, personal choice.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world …] whoever does not believe has already been condemned …] And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light

This is the signature of God’s ineffable mercy: He loves unconditionally, always willing to forgive, and He does not condemn anyone.

I still feel there are no evil people just deceived

Indeed, no human being is evil. For God made man, male and female He created them, and “behold, it was very good”. People are deceived, thus they are like blind, not because of their eyes, but because they walk in darkness. Christ, the Light, called us “lights of the world” for a reason. His message is called the “good news” for a reason. But how sad is the fate of those who prefer to remain in the darkness because they love the works of darkness more than the works of the light…how sad the fate of those who say that they are not blind…how sad the fate of those who forget that “only one thing is necessary”…to trust in God…

 

[FaithInTheSon]

“Therefore this, from one aspect, already was, from another aspect, would already be…but from the third aspect, the worst, one…it could not be: because it was not the apple from the tree that would make them “like gods” or give them eternal life, God alone would do that through the tree! God knew that to disobey Him by preferring to seek perfection through a mere object of creation would bring true death, which is the spiritual death.”

This can be looked at from another perspective. After eating the apple, God said we became like him and those with him. That seems to be the problem. We were meant to be like children from what I can understand and the Lord tells us to become like children. In eating the apple we did become more like God in the sense we know the difference between good and evil. It also took away our innocence and made us less like children. So the apple from the tree did make them like God. “Like God” can be taken more than one way that might be the biggest part of the problem.

“[all kingdoms of the world] I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”. What a void promise! Because it could not be (as the Doctor of the Church St. Jerome writes, he was “arrogant and superb, speaking with ostentation: in fact, he cannot give all kingdoms, for we know that many holy men were made kings by God”), because it already was (“Through him all things were made” …] ), and because “it would already be”:

I have always thought that he was given the ability to offer that to our Lord otherwise the test would have held too little weight to be a test because the Lord would see through the lie. If the lie were partially true though, then our Lord would still have the same answer and the test would hold more significance in it. More evidenced by the fact that satan was left in control of the world(something I always wondered is why does our Lord feel this is necessary? The parable of the wheat is likely the answer if evil was a word used synonymously with satan in the context of it, which it probably is.)

In defense of the Doctor’s point though, satan tends to mess up really bad and a lot… I’m assuming it is because of desperation. Could be pure hatred that causes it too. Imagine the desperation and hatred he must have felt when the prophecy was about to be fulfilled. For it to be as simple as arrogance would be the ideal perspective for obvious reasons.I don’t disagree with that perspective but I can’t find a reason to completely agree with it either.

I really like the way you broke down some forms of deception satan uses that is very useful wisdom.

where you say
The angels, who surpassed in perfection all creatures and knew everything, understood and still fell. Nothing seems to indicate that us, lesser beings (Ps 8:5), would not do the same.

I could argue that there are things that seem to indicate it is possible but I would have to lay them out using human logic which is flawed and I would run the risk of offending the Lord and/or the angels (who I am very reliant on lately). They are very good points but I’m not sure of the origin of “my” thoughts.

Let me be clear though; I do not wish we did fully understand. That would be contrary to God’s will. I’m simply looking to show that it is not as cut-and-dry as many people, including many in the Church, would like it to be. To oversimplify the situation is an error in my opinion. To make people feel they are the only ones responsible for their sins is a deception. They do make a choice. They are responsible but normally not the only party involved. The truth is always hidden from them, but especially during the seconds before they sin. It is a weakness and a lack of understanding, not a maliciousness, that leads to sin and most people do not understand that. I think that is very dangerous when one of satans favorite forms of deception is to tell them they have sinned too much to be saved (a “cannot be” deception). If they feel they have been too malicious to be saved they will become even worse and try to justify it with more sin.

I am not arguing that the wording of what the Church teaches is wrong. I am arguing that the findings of the Church are applied wrong and it is leading to losses that could be prevented. Maybe I put that wrong if I need to clarify let me know.

Words can be very deceptive even without satan twisting them up.