Does Catholicism offer anything to Modern Science?

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GrannyH wrote:
Wow! I like the way you write. And I have only read your 1st post. The first word that resonated was “relationship”.
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Also trying to remember if Flying Spaghetti Monster was in Ben Stein’s documentary: Expelled No Intellegence Allowed or if I read it as a quote from Richard Dawkins.
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Well, i really do think it is about a relationship. Apparently that makes me a little dangerous amongst my detractors as i’m making the assumption that there’s something to relate to…or with.

The Flying Spaghetti monster was concocted by one particular proponent of the theory of evolution. It was his manner of mocking some of the more outlandish statements made by those who are attempting to advance Creationism or Intelligent Design as a paradigm for the biological sciences.

It definitely poses some resemblances to the old “invisible pink unicorn” routine.

A more formal (and less childish) expression of the idea conveyed would be Bertrand Russell’s “Celestial Teapot.”
Since in my mind, relationship requires respectful give and take, I wonder if there’s merit in transposing your question into Does Modern Science offer anything to Catholicism
and to society as well? This would not be a new topic but rather another way of exploring your original question.
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Why not? 🙂 I think it would be interesting. Start a new thread and i’ll be sure to participate.
To me, the challenge of determining what the faith/reason relationship should be calls for creativity. However, it invokes vulnerability because we need to look at ourselves first to find out how we actually relate faith and reason.
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How does faith and how does reason operate in our worldview? Does it inspired us?
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Well, 2 words stand out in front of me:

Vulnerability and Creativity. In a way, there both hard bridges to cross wouldn’t you agree? 😉
 
TheAtheist said:
GrannyH wrote:

Well, i really do think it is about a relationship. Apparently that makes me a little dangerous amongst my detractors as i’m making the assumption that there’s something to relate to…or with.

The Flying Spaghetti monster was concocted by one particular proponent of the theory of evolution. It was his manner of mocking some of the more outlandish statements made by those who are attempting to advance Creationism or Intelligent Design as a paradigm for the biological sciences.

It definitely poses some resemblances to the old “invisible pink unicorn” routine.

A more formal (and less childish) expression of the idea conveyed would be Bertrand Russell’s “Celestial Teapot.”

Why not? 🙂 I think it would be interesting. Start a new thread and i’ll be sure to participate.

Well, 2 words stand out in front of me:

Vulnerability and Creativity. In a way, there both hard bridges to cross wouldn’t you agree? 😉
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If one believes in an infinite number of universes then he must entertain the reality that there are fake universes as well as ones with flying spaghetti monsters and pink unicorns.
 
TheAtheist said:
GrannyMH wrote:

Dear TheAtheist,

Did you mention if your trip was good? Hope it was.

I definitely agree with the last line in your reply. “Well, 2 words stand out in front of me: Vulnerability and Creativity. In a way, there both hard bridges to cross wouldn’t you agree? ;)”

Being vulnerable before a God is a real bear. But I’m stubborn enough to cross that bridge no matter what it takes.

Would you like to join me?

You could cover your eyes so you don’t lose your user name “TheAthiest” by actually seeing a God. Or you could be a cousin of mine. I’m a direct descendent of Thomas the Apostle.

As for creativity, it is fun; the hard part is putting it near the top of my priority list so I can get on the bridge. Maybe I could create an Harry Potter invisable cloak for God. Ooops, He already has one.😉

Oh dear, I hope no one on this site thinks I’m being irreverent.
I’m not. Nonetheless, I know from experience that God has a sense of humor and sometimes it is shared between us.

It’s just that I’ve been in so many humorous situations that when I look up, I swear I hear God laughing. Also, I’ve been in some very tough spiritual situations like being close to denying the existence of God. The memory of God laughing and loving…

I’ll think about a new thread after this week. It is my turn to skip out…

Blessings,
grannymh
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buffalo said:
If one believes in an infinite number of universes then he must entertain the reality that there are fake universes as well as ones with flying spaghetti monsters and pink unicorns.
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buffalo, there have been Catholic theologians who before Einstein was even born, posited infinite number of worlds.

It’s not fair IMO, to ridicule such a belief as being silly. Perhaps I misunderstood you there.
 
jfhh said:
buffalo, there have been Catholic theologians who before Einstein was even born, posited infinite number of worlds.

It’s not fair IMO, to ridicule such a belief as being silly. Perhaps I misunderstood you there.
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It is not a ridicule. It is a fair treatment of what one has to accept if there are an infinite amount of universes.
 
buffalo said:
It is not a ridicule. It is a fair treatment of what one has to accept if there are an infinite amount of universes.
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You are operating from a materialist mindset. These Catholic theologians believed each of these infinite universes were created and designed by God. They did not believe nor did any of their theological theory entail that any of these would have Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Some of these theologians were from the Middle Ages.
 
jfhh said:
You are operating from a materialist mindset. These Catholic theologians believed each of these infinite universes were created and designed by God. They did not believe nor did any of their theological theory entail that any of these would have Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Some of these theologians were from the Middle Ages.
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Good point about materialist mindset in contrast to a theist mindset. I was once taught to determine the mindset of anyone who was engaging me in a conversation.
 
jfhh said:
You are operating from a materialist mindset. These Catholic theologians believed each of these infinite universes were created and designed by God. They did not believe nor did any of their theological theory entail that any of these would have Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Some of these theologians were from the Middle Ages.
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Then by definition there would have to be a finite number of universes, if you want to eliminate the FSMs.
 
jfhh said:
You are operating from a materialist mindset. These Catholic theologians believed each of these infinite universes were created and designed by God. They did not believe nor did any of their theological theory entail that any of these would have Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Some of these theologians were from the Middle Ages.
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God cannot create an infinite universe, since such a universe by definition has no beginning.
 
jfhh said:
You are operating from a materialist mindset. These Catholic theologians believed each of these infinite universes were created and designed by God. They did not believe nor did any of their theological theory entail that any of these would have Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Some of these theologians were from the Middle Ages.
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I believe you’re mixing up the point here. It’s not “an infinite universe”, or “a number of infinite universes” that is at question.

It is “an infinite number of universes”. That’s the multiverse theory.

Which Catholic theologians proposed that there are an infinite number of universes? I’m not aware of any who have done so.
 
reggieM said:
I believe you’re mixing up the point here. It’s not “an infinite universe”, or “a number of infinite universes” that is at question.
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No I’m not. There were Catholic theologians who believed in an infinite NUMBER of universes prior to the modern craze.
Which Catholic theologians proposed that there are an infinite number of universes? I’m not aware of any who have done so.
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I’ll get back to you. Hold on for a moment.
 
buffalo said:
Then by definition there would have to be a finite number of universes, if you want to eliminate the FSMs.
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No not at all. God can create a universe with 1 cow. He can also create another one with 2 cows. He can create a third with 3 cows. And so on such that for each natural number n, a universe with exactly that number of cows is created by God. None of these universes will have a FSM, but there will be an infinite number of them. q.e.d.
 
First I think there’s a lot of confusion here.

First historically “universe” means everything that exists. The term “multiverse” was originally coined to describe a sub-world of the universe. But today we use the terms exactly in reverse, using “universe” to denote a sub-world of the “multiverse.”

Today there are also several variant theories of an infinite plurality of worlds. This chart explains it well:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2157/manyworldsae2.png

According to the author of that chart:

Yet the Level I multiverse idea has been controversial (indeed, an assertion along these lines was one of the heresies for which the Vatican had Giordano Bruno burned at the stake (…) Bruno’s ideas have since been elaborated by, e.g., Brundrit (1979), Garriga & Vilenkin (2001b) and Ellis (2002), all of whom have thus far avoided the stake (…) Although it was Level I that got Giordano Bruno in trouble with the inquisition, few astronomers today would suggest that space ends abruptly at the edge of the observable universe. It is ironic and perhaps due to historic coincidence that Level III is the one that has drawn the most fire in the past decades, since it is the only one that adds no qualitatively new types of universes.

hep.upenn.edu/~max/multiverse.pdf
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
archive.org/stream/giordanobruno00mcinuoft/giordanobruno00mcinuoft_djvu.txt
 
jfhh said:
No not at all. God can create a universe with 1 cow. He can also create another one with 2 cows. He can create a third with 3 cows. And so on such that for each natural number n, a universe with exactly that number of cows is created by God. None of these universes will have a FSM, but there will be an infinite number of them. q.e.d.
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An infinite amount of universes must include every possibility including one with FSM’s as well as fake universes.
 
Its an infinite number of possibilities. That does not include impossibilities. For example - might one of these universes contain a square circle? No - because it is a logical impossibility.

I think that jmcrae was perhaps suggesting that the FSM is an impossibility?
 
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