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atg2
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does celibacy lead to perversion & why don’t protestants have that vow?
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Tietjen
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No, celibacy will not cause a person to become perverted. Porn does however and I find it interesting that society is so accepting toward promoting open and “free” expression of sexuality and will turn and look at Priests as being odd.
As for why Protestant pastors do not take a vow of celibacy, I do not know. Perhaps because they see having their own families as somehow helping them to do God’s work?
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Luke65
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“But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.” (2 Corinthians 12:9)
“For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.” (Matthew 19:12)
The Catholic Church is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Does that help?
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Crumpy
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This thread poses a question that is predatory. It’s a rhetorical question, and if we knew the answer, we wouldn’t have to ask the question. We’d know.
“perversion” is nineteenth century term of prejudice and it really doesn’t explain anything.
All sin is perversion, and what does labelling it accomplish? Everyone is perverse, in one way or another. Christ came to turn all people towards God, to give them the chance for salvation.
Jesus told us to forgive others, and that is how God will forgive us, as we forgive others.
“perversion” is nineteenth century term of prejudice and it really doesn’t explain anything.
All sin is perversion, and what does labelling it accomplish? Everyone is perverse, in one way or another. Christ came to turn all people towards God, to give them the chance for salvation.
Jesus told us to forgive others, and that is how God will forgive us, as we forgive others.
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Canto
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Remenber: Jesus, Mary, St Paul, John Paul II, Pius XII etc, etc, were all celibate. As a whole celibacy in my op. does not lead to perversion.
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Tietjen
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I think that the OP was asking does celibacy lead to perversion; not whether or not sin is present in all men. I think that the answer to that is no; celibacy does not cause perversion.
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TLM08
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If one wants to become a Catholic priest, he is required to be celibate. Requiring celibate clergy runs contrary to scripture and is asking for trouble.
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.” 1 Timothy 3:2-6
Does celibacy lead to perversion? Not always. The more recent problems in the Catholic Church started when homosexuals started to get past the screening process and entered the seminaries many decades ago. These homosexuals ascended through the ranks and even began actively recruiting other homosexuals to run seminaries. These seminaries excluded straight men seeking a vocation ini the priesthood.
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.” 1 Timothy 3:2-6
Does celibacy lead to perversion? Not always. The more recent problems in the Catholic Church started when homosexuals started to get past the screening process and entered the seminaries many decades ago. These homosexuals ascended through the ranks and even began actively recruiting other homosexuals to run seminaries. These seminaries excluded straight men seeking a vocation ini the priesthood.
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aicirt
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I believe Protestant ministers marry because all the apostles were married except for John.
On another message board, I read a post which stated that celibacy causes pedophilia. Of course, this was in reference to priests. The poster, an idiot, would never think of saying same regarding a widower who remains single after his spouse dies.
On another message board, I read a post which stated that celibacy causes pedophilia. Of course, this was in reference to priests. The poster, an idiot, would never think of saying same regarding a widower who remains single after his spouse dies.
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Canto
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For paragraph one - only in the Latin rite of the Church must priests be celibate.
For #2 - Does your church have bishops???
Due to the work load of Priests (if mine is anything to go by) it would not be feasible time wise for them to have a wife and kids
For #3 - evidence, esp last sentence???
Other churches where married minsters are allowed have not been free from sexual abuse
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Hildita
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I still do not understand why other Christians have a problem with celibacy. This is a positive thing people. A celibate person has one less vice than one who has a wife and children to care for. Many non-catholics have no idea how much work priests put in. Their time truly is not their own and for the most part on a drop of a dime they come quickly to people. I am not putting down minister is other Churches because they must be busy as well but I believe that a Priest has less distractions. Finally, how does celibacy lead to perversion. Perversion comes from things that are not pure. As for those Priest who have been accused of crimes against children that has nothing to do with their celibacy but a psychosis of some sort. Amazing that premarital sex is acceptable but remaining chaste an pure is an abomination. Makes absolutely no sense.
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Tietjen
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When you say it “runs contrary to scripture” are you saying that it goes against scripture? St. Paul was single (and celibate). Jesus Christ was unmarried (and celiabte). Jesus is High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedek is He not? (Hebrews 7).
As long as we’re looking in Timothy turn to chapter 5 verses 9-16. Here St. Paul is speaking of an order of widows pledged not to remarry; in particular advising: “But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge.” These Sisters in Christ sound kind of like nuns maybe? Of course I realize we are talking about the Priesthood here but I’m just pointing out that the concept of voluntarily taking a vow of celibacy is biblical. Especially when one does so for the sake of the Kingdom of God (See Matthew 19)
That’s your opinion. My opinion is that it NEVER leads to perversion. It is NEVER the cause of perversion. If perversion is present, celibacy will no more be the cause of the condition than the fact that the person brushes his teeth side-to-side rather than up and down. If you have some sort of unbias proof otherwise, please cite it.
(Edited) Please cite proof.
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choy
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not just because you’re married and can engage in intimate relations with your spouse regularly means you are free from being “tempted by the fruit of another”. if that were the case, there wouldn’t be any infidelity among married couples
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Gerard_Nadal
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No more than marriage leads to adultery. :coffeeread:
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manualman
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Thanks for the great example of why the Bible shouldn’t be used in a vacuum and requires a little education and context to be understood properly. Studied history at all? Does the word “Polygamy” ring a bell? St. Paul was writing to Timothy, who, like Paul himself, worked primarily with gentile converts. Many of these gentiles were polygamists prior to their conversion. I say Paul’s words mean you can’t make a polygamist a bishop, nor a man who had kids that turned out to be rotten.
You say Paul’s words mean that a man can’t be a bishop unless he’s married. WHOOPS! You’'ve got a teesny problem. Paul is an apostle. What’s an apostle? A special version of a bishop. Where’s Paul’s wife?
(she doesn’t exist.) I guess Scripture doesn’t require a bishop to have a wife after all, does it?
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Holly3278
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No, celibacy does not lead to perversion or else Catholic priests would not be called to be celibate.
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TLM08
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“Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?” (1 Timothy 3:2-5)Thanks for the great example of why the Bible shouldn’t be used in a vacuum and requires a little education and context to be understood properly. Studied history at all? Does the word “Polygamy” ring a bell? St. Paul was writing to Timothy, who, like Paul himself, worked primarily with gentile converts. Many of these gentiles were polygamists prior to their conversion. I say Paul’s words mean you can’t make a polygamist a bishop, nor a man who had kids that turned out to be rotten.
You say Paul’s words mean that a man can’t be a bishop unless he’s married. WHOOPS! You’'ve got a teesny problem. Paul is an apostle. What’s an apostle? A special version of a bishop. Where’s Paul’s wife?
You are right. This verse does indeed addressed polygamy and is not necessarily requiring marriage but it obviously allows for marriage and actually commands that an overseer’s children are respectful and obedient. The overseer’s well managed family is a sign that he has the ability to care for the church.
Requiring celibacy of the clergy is not a command of God rather it comes from the teachings of men.
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Canto
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TLM08
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Yes scripture speaks of benefits to being free from family obligations in order to serve the Kingdom of God. But forbidding marriage is also addressed. Scripture calls it a doctrine of demons:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3
Does this passage sound familiar? Do you care to dance around this one?
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Nominefili
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If you are wondering why priests/pastors outside of Rome do not take this vow, read this little section from Luther’s Smalcald Articles (Article XI)
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"To prohibit marriage, and to burden the divine order of priests with perpetual celibacy, they have had neither authority nor right [they have done out of malice, without any honest reason], but have acted like antichristian, tyrannical, desperate scoundrels [have performed the work of antichrist, of tyrants and the worst knaves], and have thereby caused all kinds of horrible, abominable, innumerable sins of unchastity [depraved lusts], in which they still wallow. Now, as little as we or they have been given the power to make a woman out of a man or a man out of a woman, or to nullify either sex, so little have they had the power to [sunder and] separate such creatures of God, or to forbid them from living [and cohabiting] honestly in marriage with one another. Therefore we are unwilling to assent to their abominable celibacy, nor will we [even] tolerate it, but we wish to have marriage free as God has instituted [and ordained] it, and we wish neither to rescind nor hinder His work; for Paul says, 1 Tim. 4, 1 ff., that this [prohibition of marriage] is a doctrine of devils. "
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The Smalcald articles were written while Luther was attempting to organize the various churches of the Augsburg Confession in anticipation of an attack by Rome. Of course, Luther echoes these sentiments throughout his other documents (the Augsburg Confession in particular.) I did not reference this in order to get into an argument over the papacy, but just as historical background to answer your question about why protestants do not take a vow of celibacy.
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"To prohibit marriage, and to burden the divine order of priests with perpetual celibacy, they have had neither authority nor right [they have done out of malice, without any honest reason], but have acted like antichristian, tyrannical, desperate scoundrels [have performed the work of antichrist, of tyrants and the worst knaves], and have thereby caused all kinds of horrible, abominable, innumerable sins of unchastity [depraved lusts], in which they still wallow. Now, as little as we or they have been given the power to make a woman out of a man or a man out of a woman, or to nullify either sex, so little have they had the power to [sunder and] separate such creatures of God, or to forbid them from living [and cohabiting] honestly in marriage with one another. Therefore we are unwilling to assent to their abominable celibacy, nor will we [even] tolerate it, but we wish to have marriage free as God has instituted [and ordained] it, and we wish neither to rescind nor hinder His work; for Paul says, 1 Tim. 4, 1 ff., that this [prohibition of marriage] is a doctrine of devils. "
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The Smalcald articles were written while Luther was attempting to organize the various churches of the Augsburg Confession in anticipation of an attack by Rome. Of course, Luther echoes these sentiments throughout his other documents (the Augsburg Confession in particular.) I did not reference this in order to get into an argument over the papacy, but just as historical background to answer your question about why protestants do not take a vow of celibacy.
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distracted
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i have been celibate for a very long time…
and i am not perverted…
but the devil messes with my head and sometimes i get perverted thoughts. But hopefully we won’t be judged or spend massive years in Purgatory over thoghts… because they really do come out of nowhere… they could be coming out of my subconscious mind (fears, etc) but uh… i think that coiuld also be considered “nowhere”
I feel most of them come straight from the devil.
The devil attacks practicing Christians… He doesn’t much bother with others… doesn’t have to…
i am not sure what the question means… i think more elaboration is in order… an example??
its a iknown fact that most child molesters are married…
i think most men who use porn are probably married also.
and i am not perverted…
but the devil messes with my head and sometimes i get perverted thoughts. But hopefully we won’t be judged or spend massive years in Purgatory over thoghts… because they really do come out of nowhere… they could be coming out of my subconscious mind (fears, etc) but uh… i think that coiuld also be considered “nowhere”
I feel most of them come straight from the devil.The devil attacks practicing Christians… He doesn’t much bother with others… doesn’t have to…
i am not sure what the question means… i think more elaboration is in order… an example??
its a iknown fact that most child molesters are married…
i think most men who use porn are probably married also.
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