Does democracy work?

[Paddy1989]

The reason why i ask such a question is due to the fact that as i reflect on the world in general and look at how democracy has shaped modern society i wonder does it actually work the way so many envisioned especially Christian’s. It seems that in today’s world everything has become relative because of democracy, fundamental value’s that were instrumental in structuring our society have been turned upside down with the introduction of abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia etc and all because a majority say’s so. The problem with democracy is that because the common person hold’s such power then they can easily be manipulated by those with wealth, power and influence to embrace whatever ideology they desire. Maybe it’s also more to do with the “political party system” which Chester Belloc criticized claiming it would lead to a servile state. Political parties compete against each other coming out with spectacular promises if they get into government only to put most manpower and resource’s into protecting their own interest’s.

Also because the people are so easily swayed socially then as they decay morally this is reflected in the government elected and therefore it’s incompetence to run a nation the way it should be run. Everything such as education, economic’s, social issues etc is affected for generation’s. It just doesn’t seem right to me especially as a Catholic. It’s not that i don’t have faith in democracy, it’s just that i think it should be in another form. What do other’s think?

 

[jeannetherese]

Do you think that, with sound catechesis, voters might be able to evangelize better and promote policies that uphold the moral tenets of our faith?
Maybe our problem is not so much democracy as our lack of grounding in our own faith, and our failure to bring the Good News to the rest of our community. I’m hoping to see the new evangelization make a difference here, although it may take awhile.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

I don’t think we can expect perfection from any form of government. Because government is of the world and not of God.

But, I believe it’s the best game in town. We just have to keep struggling to keep it on the right path.

Peace,
John

 

[sw85]

The reason why i ask such a question is due to the fact that as i reflect on the world in general and look at how democracy has shaped modern society i wonder does it actually work the way so many envisioned especially Christian’s. It seems that in today’s world everything has become relative because of democracy, fundamental value’s that were instrumental in structuring our society have been turned upside down with the introduction of abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia etc and all because a majority say’s so. The problem with democracy is that because the common person hold’s such power then they can easily be manipulated by those with wealth, power and influence to embrace whatever ideology they desire. Maybe it’s also more to do with the “political party system” which Chester Belloc criticized claiming it would lead to a servile state. Political parties compete against each other coming out with spectacular promises if they get into government only to put most manpower and resource’s into protecting their own interest’s.

Also because the people are so easily swayed socially then as they decay morally this is reflected in the government elected and therefore it’s incompetence to run a nation the way it should be run. Everything such as education, economic’s, social issues etc is affected for generation’s. It just doesn’t seem right to me especially as a Catholic. It’s not that i don’t have faith in democracy, it’s just that i think it should be in another form. What do other’s think?

I oppose democracy in principle because I think it’s bad in practice and lousy in theory. Historically it arises from a number of specious philosophical assumptions, opposition to which right-minded Catholics ought to be committed. It encourages the horrible, turgid, offensive enshrinement and worship of “freedom” as the highest good. etc. etc.

But even so, I suppose a right-minded Catholic democracy would be preferable to an atheist monarchy. Still, a right-minded Catholic monarchy would be best of all.

 

[cargau]

The reason why i ask such a question is due to the fact that as i reflect on the world in general and look at how democracy has shaped modern society i wonder does it actually work the way so many envisioned especially Christian’s. It seems that in today’s world everything has become relative because of democracy, fundamental value’s that were instrumental in structuring our society have been turned upside down with the introduction of abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia etc and all because a majority say’s so. The problem with democracy is that because the common person hold’s such power then they can easily be manipulated by those with wealth, power and influence to embrace whatever ideology they desire. Maybe it’s also more to do with the “political party system” which Chester Belloc criticized claiming it would lead to a servile state. Political parties compete against each other coming out with spectacular promises if they get into government only to put most manpower and resource’s into protecting their own interest’s.

Also because the people are so easily swayed socially then as they decay morally this is reflected in the government elected and therefore it’s incompetence to run a nation the way it should be run. Everything such as education, economic’s, social issues etc is affected for generation’s. It just doesn’t seem right to me especially as a Catholic. It’s not that i don’t have faith in democracy, it’s just that i think it should be in another form. What do other’s think?

The truth is, democracy is not a useful, long term system. In fact, democracy in its purest form leads to anarchy. Democracy is a system by which the majority rules. The minority, therefore is subject to the majority and this often leads to resentment and thus, chaos.

The United States is not a democracy. Rather it is a constitutional republic that respects and protects the rights of a minority. It is this system that has the greatest chance of success.

 

[Slaney]

Democracy has not worked from a Catholic Christian point of view, because it has been corrupted with immorality
So-called democracy that wants to water down or even worse exclude God is corrupt & although some will say well " that’s democracy " well it isn’t the kind I aspire too. .

 

[Hild_e_gard]

The reason why i ask such a question is due to the fact that as i reflect on the world in general and look at how democracy has shaped modern society i wonder does it actually work the way so many envisioned especially Christian’s. It seems that in today’s world everything has become relative because of democracy, fundamental value’s that were instrumental in structuring our society have been turned upside down with the introduction of abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia etc and all because a majority say’s so. The problem with democracy is that because the common person hold’s such power then they can easily be manipulated by those with wealth, power and influence to embrace whatever ideology they desire. Maybe it’s also more to do with the “political party system” which Chester Belloc criticized claiming it would lead to a servile state. Political parties compete against each other coming out with spectacular promises if they get into government only to put most manpower and resource’s into protecting their own interest’s.

Also because the people are so easily swayed socially then as they decay morally this is reflected in the government elected and therefore it’s incompetence to run a nation the way it should be run. Everything such as education, economic’s, social issues etc is affected for generation’s. It just doesn’t seem right to me especially as a Catholic. It’s not that i don’t have faith in democracy, it’s just that i think it should be in another form. What do other’s think?

Very interesting questions!

Some have called democracy the most subtle form of tyranny. Others, of course, say democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.

Two things: I don’t think it’s accurate to say “abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia etc and all because a majority say’s so.” Simple majority doesn’t determine these things – that would be what is called a “tyranny of the masses”. Instead we have basic rights that the majority can never overturn (in theory). For these issues you name, they are complex cases where rights of different groups and arguments of definition cause a conflict.

You say: “The problem with democracy is that because the common person hold’s such power then they can easily be manipulated by those with wealth, power and influence to embrace whatever ideology they desire.” I would agree with this, though many democracies fight this with various laws controlling the influence of money in campaigns. France’s system has very strict laws concerning equal time for all politicians and I believe for all sides of an issue. The USA, unfortunately, has no such laws, so wealth and power really do influence the voters to the detriment of simple rational discussion of issues.

 

[bearer]

Yes, democracy works, but not as well as we’d like. It is far from perfect.

Generally people like to think that they are the masters of their destinies, and that they have the ability, or even the right, to choose their paths in life. If you suggest ‘taking away’ democracy from those used to it, there would be hell to pay, if you’ll pardon the expression.

The problem is, and this is coming from someone who studied political science, that most people really just aren’t that informed, and human nature in general leads too many to act on emotion or irrational self-interest just as often, if not more, than rational thought and the common good. That’s one of the reasons we have our system of representation in the U.S. The Founding Fathers were loathe to allow the whims of the citizenry to dictate the course of government and public affairs. The average person just isn’t reliable enough to run a nation, or for that matter any level of government.

However, the alternatives aren’t too great either. A king if fine and dandy if he’s truly benevolent and altruistic, but there’s no guarantee of that anywhere at anytime. Democracy gives us the best of a bad lot.

 

[shainski]

It seems to me that the power of government is great as long as you agree with the rulers. At least in a democracy, you have the ability to influence those rulers - and mistakes can be corrected.

With a form of government that arises from the minority (which is what any other form would be whether it is a theocracy, tyranny) you must hope that they tyrant has your interests in mind.

Some kings have been benevolent and wanted the best for their subjects - but through lines of succession, there is little guaranty that their interests would continue to align with those they govern. Even the peoples’ revolts - ended up with the Stalin, Castro, Mao, Chavez and on and on.) Those rulers were probably good for some of their people, but horrible for others.

It seems to me that a democracy - (or a representative republic) has the best long-term chance of representing the best interests of the majority of the people.

But in a democracy, it is up to you - to convince those that are uninterested enough to be involved.

I don’t even think that all sides of an issue should be given equal time. That leads to bizarre points of view seeming like they are mainstream. 99% of the people may feel like a certain path is best and a couple of people get equal time because they object - perhaps because of selfish interests, or just to be noticed. You can get neo-Nazis, skinheads and anarchists with equal time just because somebody wants to stand out.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Democracy is an illusion. True Democracy does not exist. There are elements of democracy in our social system, but they are minor given the degree of non-democratic issues that face our society.

 

[Paddy1989]

Do you think that, with sound catechesis, voters might be able to evangelize better and promote policies that uphold the moral tenets of our faith?
Maybe our problem is not so much democracy as our lack of grounding in our own faith, and our failure to bring the Good News to the rest of our community. I’m hoping to see the new evangelization make a difference here, although it may take awhile.

Evangelicalism only has an effect on those willing to listen and embrace it, this unfortunately is not the majority of society

 

[Paddy1989]

The truth is, democracy is not a useful, long term system. In fact, democracy in its purest form leads to anarchy. Democracy is a system by which the majority rules. The minority, therefore is subject to the majority and this often leads to resentment and thus, chaos.

The United States is not a democracy. Rather it is a constitutional republic that respects and protects the rights of a minority. It is this system that has the greatest chance of success.

Yes but as we see with abortion and same sex marriage in the US the constitution can easily be twisted by powerful individual’s to suit their ideological interest’s

 

[Slaney]

Yes but as we see with abortion and same sex marriage in the US the constitution can easily be twisted by powerful individual’s to suit their ideological interest’s

Bad choice of words here me thinks, we have abortion right here in Ireland, it’s just that they get boat’s & plane ticket’s to England & further afield, so let’s not parade Ireland & it’s population as squeaky clean, WE AREN’T !!!

Plus men lie with men in Ireland regardless if they are married or not, so if we profess our-selves to be a Universal Church with them over there in the (USA) having terrible probs: like ABORTION ! then we aren’t too Universal , cause a problem in the USA is a problem for every body on the planet, a problem for the whole Catholic Church & every right thinking Christian & Atheist with an ounce of humility …& humanity…

 

[THP]

The truth is, democracy is not a useful, long term system. In fact, democracy in its purest form leads to anarchy. Democracy is a system by which the majority rules. The minority, therefore is subject to the majority and this often leads to resentment and thus, chaos.

The United States is not a democracy. Rather it is a constitutional republic that respects and protects the rights of a minority. It is this system that has the greatest chance of success.

I wish more people understood this.

 

[exnihilo]

Democracy is a terrible and inefficient system. What the definition of democracy is matters to the discussion. When I refer to democracy I mean both direct democracy, which might be the purest form, and representative democracy, which is the form the US has in principle.

As others point out the obvious ignorance and inability to logically think that is demonstrated by the vast majority of US citizens is by itself enough reason to realize that democracy, or at least the form of government in the US, is a terrible method of government. The average citizen while having not only the freedom but also the means to acquire knowledge, both current and historical, would rather spend his time being entertained. The system could only work with a relatively morally good people, which we are not. So on that basis it is also doomed in the formerly Christian West.

Democracies problems are also systemic. A problem is democracy tends to favor the present over the future. Politicians are interested in getting elected, which leads them to favor solutions that seem beneficial in the present but that have long term negative consequences. It is the same problem the corporation has, which is also a social ill. Monarchy and private business tend to favor the future. The heirs are always there to exert pressure. They will encourage actions that have the best long term benefit.

Personally I think the greatest danger of democracy is the people thinking that the government is them when it is not. This leads to people seeing the success of the state as being equivalent to their success. This is most dangerous in war. And not surprisingly the democratic forms of government have been the most violent, deadly and totally destructive as attested to by the 20th century. When it was the king’s army people were more wary of war.

If you are interested I suggest the book ‘Democracy: the God that Failed’, by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. It makes some strong arguments for monarchy from an economic perspective. And of course the great philosophers regarded monarchy as the best form of government.

The United States is not a democracy. Rather it is a constitutional republic that respects and protects the rights of a minority. It is this system that has the greatest chance of success.

Oh no! Does that mean the US will have to invade itself in order to spread Democracy to itself? Thank goodness the average politician doesn’t know any better or read these forums seeking Christian knowledge to inform their actions.

 

[manualman]

A representative democracy would be best if the population were overwhelmingly educated and held moral worldviews in line with natural law. But we are rapidly beginning to find out that democracies (and republics) collapse when the populace loses a cohesive worldview and moral base and fragments into antagonistic factions. I have a bad feeling that we don’t have too many decades left for it all to hold together.

I’m not keen on reverting to monarchy either. Jesus seems reluctant to be an earthly monarch and all the other candidates are iffy at best.

Political tyranny, but with at least partial free enterprise is awfully efficient. Witness the (temporary, IMO) rise of China in our times. It’s going to be hard for a polyglot democracy (with its inherent massive waste, corruption and inefficiency) to compete with a well-run tyranny. We managed it when we were a society with more homogenous (and healthy) values, but I think those days are gone.

 

[Paddy1989]

Bad choice of words here me thinks, we have abortion right here in Ireland, it’s just that they get boat’s & plane ticket’s to England & further afield, so let’s not parade Ireland & it’s population as squeaky clean, WE AREN’T !!!

Plus men lie with men in Ireland regardless if they are married or not, so if we profess our-selves to be a Universal Church with them over there in the (USA) having terrible probs: like ABORTION ! then we aren’t too Universal , cause a problem in the USA is a problem for every body on the planet, a problem for the whole Catholic Church & every right thinking Christian & Atheist with an ounce of humility …& humanity…

I have not parading Ireland, this subject is about the democratic system which we all follow and support, i’m just showing how constitution’s can be twisted to suit individual interest’s

 

[exnihilo]

I have a bad feeling that we don’t have too many decades left for it all to hold together.

I think in my lifetime there will be a radical change. But the damage culturally is already done and beyond repair, unless we have a major repentance.

I’m not keen on reverting to monarchy either. Jesus seems reluctant to be an earthly monarch and all the other candidates are iffy at best.

Jesus did not come to be an earthly monarch at that time. But He will be and is ultimately a monarch even now.

Political tyranny, but with at least partial free enterprise is awfully efficient. Witness the (temporary, IMO) rise of China in our times. It’s going to be hard for a polyglot democracy (with its inherent massive waste, corruption and inefficiency) to compete with a well-run tyranny. We managed it when we were a society with more homogenous (and healthy) values, but I think those days are gone.

China is a hard case. But how much more tryannical are they than the current western governments? There is actually a good deal of economic and social freedom in China. In some ways more than in the US.

I think one reason why the Chinese government seems so terrible is people actually do things to test it and the Chinese state is less respectful of speech. Americans are a very compliant lot and for the most part obey even the most ridiculous tyrannical laws. They never test the state. The West realized that allowing people to express politically dangerous ideas was not a problem since they would never act on them. As long as we’ll put up with anything why should the state care what we say? For those few nutjobs that do threaten the government the state can always bribe some criminal informant and spend years and lots of money to create a silly conspiracy case. That is the luxury of a wealth government. They can take our money and use it to create legitimacy for their system.

 

[JaKael02]

I think in my lifetime there will be a radical change. But the damage culturally is already done and beyond repair, unless we have a major repentance.

What will cause this radical change?

China is a hard case. But how much more tryannical are they than the current western governments? There is actually a good deal of economic and social freedom in China. In some ways more than in the US.

Agreed!

I think one reason why the Chinese government seems so terrible is people actually do things to test it and the Chinese state is less respectful of speech. Americans are a very compliant lot and for the most part obey even the most ridiculous tyrannical laws. They never test the state. The West realized that allowing people to express politically dangerous ideas was not a problem since they would never act on them. As long as we’ll put up with anything why should the state care what we say? For those few nutjobs that do threaten the government the state can always bribe some criminal informant and spend years and lots of money to create a silly conspiracy case. That is the luxury of a wealth government. They can take our money and use it to create legitimacy for their system.

We are in a dictatorship of relativism. Popular media pushes agendas until America supports, then Americans claim that agenda as absolute truth; while remaining relativistic.

America is lost, a sheep w/o a shephard.

We rejected God… so our outcome is now predictable.

 

[Andromedus]

America is lost, a sheep w/o a shephard.

We rejected God… so our outcome is now predictable.

What will the outcome be then?